Mary Co-Redemptrix Poll

[CradleCath]

Only ‘probably not’???

How can you say ‘probably not’???

Getting sent to hell is not dependent on which private devotional practices one makes use of.

Hmmmmm, “Probably not” is exactly what I mean. Our devotions serve to keep us on the right track, the narrow path. Without them, the way to heaven is strewn with more stumbling blocks than I want to deal with. You can choose whatever you want.

However, you DID miss the important part of my post it seems:
Will we go to Hell if we don’t pray the rosary as Mary reccomended…probably not.** Will we receive the graces that Mary promised to the world? Probably not. As far as I’m concerned that is definitely a"negative effect".**

 

[Eilish_Maura]

You are stuck in a rut my dear. What do you think creating a Feast day means…Get over yourself.

Divine Mercy Sunday is a solemnity on the universal calendar of the Church.

Solemnity
newadvent.org/cathen/14133a.htm

(From Latin solet and annus – a yearly celebration).

The word solemnity is here used to denote the amount of intrinsic or extrinsic pomp with which a feast is celebrated. Intrinsic solemnity arises from the fact that the feast is primarium for the entire Church or for a special place, because in it a saint was born, lived or died; or because his relics are honoured there. Extrinsic solemnity is added by feriatio, by the numbers of sacred ministers, decorations of the church or adjoining streets, the ringing of bells, the number of candles, costly vestments, etc. In the Roman Martyrology Easter Sunday is announced as the solemnity of solemnities; the first Sunday of October, as the solemnity of the Rosary of the Most Blessed Virgin Mary. The term solemnity is also used in contracts, especially matrimony, in votive Masses, in vows, and in ecclesiastical trials.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

Hmmmmm, “Probably not” is exactly what I mean. Our devotions serve to keep us on the right track, the narrow path. Without them, the way to heaven is strewn with more stumbling blocks than I want to deal with. You can choose whatever you want.

However, you DID miss the important part of my post it seems:
Will we go to Hell if we don’t pray the rosary as Mary reccomended…probably not.** Will we receive the graces that Mary promised to the world? Probably not. As far as I’m concerned that is definitely a"negative effect".**

Personally I didn’t consider the bolded part important enough to comment on because there are many many ways to obtain graces.

Since it is not anywhere near the only way or ‘best’ way how can there be a ‘negative’ effect?

 

[CradleCath]

Private revelations are not even “binding” on those that receive them.

I have always heard that private revelations ARE binding for those who receive them. After reading your post, I looked it up on several sites on the web. They agree with me. Could you do a little checking & let me know what you find. I do want to know what is the correct info, here. Thanks.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

Private Revelations

There are two kinds of revelations: (1) universal revelations, which are contained in the Bible or in the depositum of Apostolic tradition transmitted by the Church. These ended with the preaching of the Apostles and must be believed by all; (2) particular or private revelations which are constantly occurring among Christians (see CONTEMPLATION). When the Church approves private revelations, she declares only that there is nothing in them contrary faith or good morals, and that they may be read without danger or even with profit; no obligation is thereby imposed on the faithful to believe them.

newadvent.org/cathen/13005a.htm

 

[MaryJohnZ]

I am equally stunned that there are Catholics here with so little regard for our Lord’s command to Love one another, that they feel the need to blast away at other catholics who hold different opinions. Even though those opinions are just as valid within the church as their own.

“Blessed be the Peacemakers for they shall be called Sons of God”.
Let’s try it and see what happens.

Peace
James

Read Acts of the Apostles, they had disagreements too and discussed them. I don’t become offended when someone says something different from me. We should all be seeking truth and sometimes that can feel like we are ‘wrestling’ with things…but isn’t that like Jacob, wrestling with the angel. I trust God will bring good out of dialogue as long as people are truly listening and sincerely seeking truth.
After listening and exploring what other people say you can either affirm your position or pray about it, maybe even chage it, ;;;
I see that as part of being a Christian.

Correcting eachother is on of the Spiritual Works of Mercy.

Justice demands we seek truth fully and usually there is unrest when their is some form of injustice. In this case the diregard given to Mary’s role in salvation by many Christians is unjust.
The dialogue doesn’t cause the lack of peace…lack of dialogue might cover it up, and that is all.

God Bless, mary

 

[GraceDK]

I am equally stunned that there are Catholics here with so little regard for our Lord’s command to Love one another, that they feel the need to blast away at other catholics who hold different opinions. Even though those opinions are just as valid within the church as their own.

“Blessed be the Peacemakers for they shall be called Sons of God”.
Let’s try it and see what happens.

Peace
James

Again …thanks James for the defence of my right… yet you dont have to. The man is right… I refuse to accept the very foundation of the Catholic way by stating what I do…
Memav… I have over the last five years read bunches and bunches of books, saints and apologetics, both in my free time and as part of my theology studies, I have visited numerous different churches, talked, prayed and sung with numerous different christians, I have visited and lived in convents, prayed for hours and fasted, listens endless hours to catholic radio, The Coming Home Network, EWTN and others… I have come a far way in understanding lots about the teachings and the history of the Church and all its divisions and fractions and how its claims have grown and practices developed over time…
And You all may well talk down to me with all the arrogance you can muster and you are right…

James… I am sorry to disappoint you but the guy is right… he certainly IS the more Catholic of the two of us. I don’t see his points and the points of the Church…The fact that the cardinals would even suggest such a thing as to make the dogma leaves me in a situation where I have to admit I dont follow their thinking anymore. I don’t understand and feel the truth of the marian dogma and a lot of other things that are going on in the church when it comes to the “rabbincal” system of things that have been built up… neither do I comprehend of the lack of life and focus that seems to be so dominant from where I am…

So congratulations Memav… I guess you are in the club of good Catholics …I will not dispute that and I am happy for your hard-won peace. I withdraw from you not challenging you in your age and wisdom.
Only I admit that I am who I am and think what I think… and maybe a universal Church with universal consensus is really an illusion… just look at this thread.

Shalom to you all.

 

[MaryJohnZ]

Personally I didn’t consider the bolded part important enough to comment on because there are many many ways to obtain graces.

Since it is not anywhere near the only way or ‘best’ way how can there be a ‘negative’ effect?

About 'praying the rosary"…

ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/I23GRATA.HTM
Pope John XXIII on the rosary

ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/L13FIDEN.HTM
Pope Leo on the rosary, mediatrix of all graces, unity

ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2ROSAR.HTM
John Paul II enclycal on the rosary

You should read some of the Encyclicals on the Rosary (see above short list as there are many more artciles) as a prayer and you might change your thoughts on this. The Pope had a full “Year of the Rosary” and he said the rosary is really made up of the “memories” that Mary had. We really enter into Mary’s Heart by praying with her in this form.

Also the rosary is made up of “Angelic Salutations”, so we are truly praying words first spoken by an Angel…how awesome!

The rosary has many mystical aspects to it which are not apparent by looking only at the outer form of the prayer, and Mary is requesting it because she understands that.

It is such a simple request, how can you say you are not puttiing your own opinion over the Mother of God if you refuse it?

MaryJohnZ

 

[MaryJohnZ]

here is a page from EWTN with links to different articles about the Mediatrix title:

ewtn.com/library/MARY/coredemedadv.HTM

MaryJohnZ

 

[JRKH]

Again …thanks James for the defence of my right… yet you dont have to. The man is right… I refuse to accept the very foundation of the Catholic way by stating what I do…
Memav… I have over the last five years read bunches and bunches of books, saints and apologetics, both in my free time and as part of my theology studies, I have visited numerous different churches, talked, prayed and sung with numerous different christians, I have visited and lived in convents, prayed for hours and fasted, listens endless hours to catholic radio, The Coming Home Network, EWTN and others… I have come a far way in understanding lots about the teachings and the history of the Church and all its divisions and fractions and how its claims have grown and practices developed over time…
And You all may well talk down to me with all the arrogance you can muster and you are right…

James… I am sorry to disappoint you but the guy is right… he certainly IS the more Catholic of the two of us. I don’t see his points and the points of the Church…The fact that the cardinals would even suggest such a thing as to make the dogma leaves me in a situation where I have to admit I dont follow their thinking anymore. I don’t understand and feel the truth of the marian dogma and a lot of other things that are going on in the church when it comes to the “rabbincal” system of things that have been built up… neither do I comprehend of the lack of life and focus that seems to be so dominant from where I am…

So congratulations Memav… I guess you are in the club of good Catholics …I will not dispute that and I am happy for your hard-won peace. I withdraw from you not challenging you in your age and wisdom.
Only I admit that I am who I am and think what I think… and maybe a universal Church with universal consensus is really an illusion… just look at this thread.

Shalom to you all.

Grace,
No need to thank me for defending you. This entire thread has gotten so idiotic it is just sad. And the worst part is that no one seems to be listening to anyone. They just continue off on their entrenched tangents, completely oblivious to the harm being done to others. Such is the way of the pharasees, binding up burdens for others to bear.

Peace and simple faith to you dear Grace
James

 

[Eilish_Maura]

About 'praying the rosary"…

ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/I23GRATA.HTM
Pope John XXIII on the rosary

ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/L13FIDEN.HTM
Pope Leo on the rosary, mediatrix of all graces, unity

ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2ROSAR.HTM
John Paul II enclycal on the rosary

You should read some of the Encyclicals on the Rosary (see above short list as there are many more artciles) as a prayer and you might change your thoughts on this. The Pope had a full “Year of the Rosary” and he said the rosary is really made up of the “memories” that Mary had. We really enter into Mary’s Heart by praying with her in this form.

Also the rosary is made up of “Angelic Salutations”, so we are truly praying words first spoken by an Angel…how awesome!

The rosary has many mystical aspects to it which are not apparent by looking only at the outer form of the prayer, and Mary is requesting it because she understands that.

It is such a simple request, how can you say you are not puttiing your own opinion over the Mother of God if you refuse it?

MaryJohnZ

I have been searching the Ask an Apologist area thinking something along the lines of your comments would be there as well.

I did find this catholic.com/library/Rosary.asp

There are many devotions one can practice - the rosary is but one. There is no downside to not praying the rosary nor skipping any other private devotional practice.

 

[MaryJohnZ]

I have been searching the Ask an Apologist area thinking something along the lines of your comments would be there as well.

I did find this catholic.com/library/Rosary.asp

There are many devotions one can practice - the rosary is but one. There is no downside to not praying the rosary nor skipping any other private devotional practice.

I read the article and it was a nicely done summary. The history of the rosary actually goes back to the idea of saying all the Psalms which the Desert fathers did, counting them on cords.
That is why the original rosary had 150 Hail Marys ( 3 sets of five decades) representing the 150 psalms. The Hail Mary and Our Father (according to Secret of Holy Rosary) are the perfection of the Davididc Psalms because they can be linked to a heavenly source, the first words of the hail mary coming from an angel
The Our Father coming from Jesus, himslef

My own thought has been that when I repeat the Hail Mary I am repeating the very words said at that blessed time when Christ became incarnate…almost like repeating the words of endearment spoken to the Bride, a heavenly proposal.
These words are words of Love transending time and space and binding Satan.

Also, I truly believe that spiritually meditationg on the mysteries with faith is like opening a door in time and you are actually there
at each mystery… This must have been how they saw it in the Middle Ages because it is pictured in the Merode Altar Piece, a painting which I truly love. Go to the below site to read about it and see it.

employees.oneonta.edu/farberas/arth/arth214_folder/campin.html

God Bless, MaryJohn

 

[Memaw]

I am equally stunned that there are Catholics here with so little regard for our Lord’s command to Love one another, that they feel the need to blast away at other catholics who hold different opinions. Even though those opinions are just as valid within the church as their own.

“Blessed be the Peacemakers for they shall be called Sons of God”.
Let’s try it and see what happens.

Peace
James

The Church is not based on opinions, it is based on the TRUTH and trying to help someone understand that is LOVING them. Opinions divide.

 

[Memaw]

I read the article and it was a nicely done summary. The history of the rosary actually goes back to the idea of saying all the Psalms which the Desert fathers did, counting them on cords.
That is why the original rosary had 150 Hail Marys ( 3 sets of five decades) representing the 150 psalms. The Hail Mary and Our Father (according to Secret of Holy Rosary) are the perfection of the Davididc Psalms because they can be linked to a heavenly source, the first words of the hail mary coming from an angel
The Our Father coming from Jesus, himslef

My own thought has been that when I repeat the Hail Mary I am repeating the very words said at that blessed time when Christ became incarnate…almost like repeating the words of endearment spoken to the Bride, a heavenly proposal.
These words are words of Love transending time and space and binding Satan.

Also, I truly believe that spiritually meditationg on the mysteries with faith is like opening a door in time and you are actually there
at each mystery… This must have been how they saw it in the Middle Ages because it is pictured in the Merode Altar Piece, a painting which I truly love. Go to the below site to read about it and see it.

employees.oneonta.edu/farberas/arth/arth214_folder/campin.html

God Bless, MaryJohn

AMEN, I will keep that website for further study, Thanks!!

 

[Memaw]

I have always heard that private revelations ARE binding for those who receive them. After reading your post, I looked it up on several sites on the web. They agree with me. Could you do a little checking & let me know what you find. I do want to know what is the correct info, here. Thanks.

You really have to be careful where you got information, I don’t know what sites you were looking it up on, but even the person receiving the private revelation cannot be sure it is free of error until the Church studies it and says its Worthy of Belief. So how could they be bound to believe something that may not be approved. Even after approval the person receiving it is no more “bound” to believe than any one else, (tho I am sure they do believe) Common sense will tell you that if it is approved, then its wise to pay attention to the message. I really don’t understand what all this fuss is about but I think EM is enjoying keeping things stirred up.

Private revelations are supernatural manifestations by God of hidden truths made to private individuals for their own spiritual welfare and that of others. They differ from Public Revelation contained in Scripture and S. Tradition which is given on behalf of the whole human race and is necessary for human salvation and sanctification. Although recognized by the Church and, at times, approved by Her authority, private revelations are not the object of divine faith that binds one in conscience to believe on God’s authority. The assent given to them, therefore, is either on human evidence or, when formally approved by the Church, on ecclesiastical authority according to the mind of the Church. Private revelations occur as supernatural visions, words, or divine touches. Often it is impossible to distinguish the three forms in practice, especially.since they may be received simultaneously.
Modern Catholic Dictionary, Fr. John Hardon, SJ

 

[Eilish_Maura]

That is why the original rosary had 150 Hail Marys ( 3 sets of five decades) representing the 150 psalms. The Hail Mary and Our Father (according to Secret of Holy Rosary) are the perfection of the Davididc Psalms because they can be linked to a heavenly source, the first words of the hail mary coming from an angel
The Our Father coming from Jesus, himslef

The roots of the rosary have been linked to 150 PATER NOSTERS not Hail Mary’s (not even angelic salutations) representing the 150 Psalms.

 

[Memaw]

Again …thanks James for the defence of my right… yet you dont have to. The man is right… I refuse to accept the very foundation of the Catholic way by stating what I do…
Memav… I have over the last five years read bunches and bunches of books, saints and apologetics, both in my free time and as part of my theology studies, I have visited numerous different churches, talked, prayed and sung with numerous different christians, I have visited and lived in convents, prayed for hours and fasted, listens endless hours to catholic radio, The Coming Home Network, EWTN and others… I have come a far way in understanding lots about the teachings and the history of the Church and all its divisions and fractions and how its claims have grown and practices developed over time…
And You all may well talk down to me with all the arrogance you can muster and you are right…

James… I am sorry to disappoint you but the guy is right… he certainly IS the more Catholic of the two of us. I don’t see his points and the points of the Church…The fact that the cardinals would even suggest such a thing as to make the dogma leaves me in a situation where I have to admit I dont follow their thinking anymore. I don’t understand and feel the truth of the marian dogma and a lot of other things that are going on in the church when it comes to the “rabbincal” system of things that have been built up… neither do I comprehend of the lack of life and focus that seems to be so dominant from where I am…

So congratulations Memav… I guess you are in the club of good Catholics …I will not dispute that and I am happy for your hard-won peace. I withdraw from you not challenging you in your age and wisdom.
Only I admit that I am who I am and think what I think… and maybe a universal Church with universal consensus is really an illusion… just look at this thread.

Shalom to you all.

As Bishop Fulton J. Sheen once said, “The truth is the truth, even if no one believes it and a lie is a lie even if everyone believes it.” He also said that people don’t hate the Catholic Church, but they hate what they THINK is the Catholic Church.
Bishop Sheen has studied more, been more places, seen more Churches, and read and wrote more books than you ever will, and I will take his word over yours any day.
PS, maybe you should read some of his books.

 

[Memaw]

If there is no new Public Revelation why would there be new dogma?

You all need to get a copy of “Modern Catholic Dictionary,” by John A. Hardon, S.J. and look it up. Any Catholic Book store should have a copy, if not, I am sure EWTN has them available.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

You all need to get a copy of “Modern Catholic Dictionary,” by John A. Hardon, S.J. and look it up. Any Catholic Book store should have a copy, if not, I am sure EWTN has them available.

The quote I used from Newadvent.org is not good enough?

 

[Adhemar]

Re JRKH’s St. Louis de Montfort’s comment on the cult of Mary, et al.

I’ll see your cult and raise you a verse:

“I am The Way, and The Truth and The Life. No one comes to the Father but through Me.” John 14: 6
**
Through ME, not through US.**

Something to Accept…

Fact: Mary co-operated with salvation. Mary did NOT co-redeem. No amount of philosophical, headspinning, word parsing, theologial hairsplitting will change that.
Fact: The Church does require that we accept the dogmas concerning the BVM. It does NOT require us to incorporate such dogmas into our devotional/prayer life.
Fact: We are free within the Church to decide for ourselves how much emphasis to place on Mary in our personal devotions.
Fact: The Church does not REQIURE marion devotion for salvation.

I am equally stunned that there are Catholics here with so little regard for our Lord’s command to Love one another, that they feel the need to blast away at other catholics who hold different opinions. Even though those opinions are just as valid within the church as their own.

No need to thank me for defending you. This entire thread has gotten so idiotic it is just sad. And the worst part is that no one seems to be listening to anyone. They just continue off on their entrenched tangents, completely oblivious to the harm being done to others. Such is the way of the pharasees, binding up burdens for others to bear.

And finally from another thread:

I ran across this passage in a wonderful book and it really speaks well to the idea of faith vs religion and why I would never completely submit my concsience to any church.

(Emphasis in above quotes are mine.)

I am new here and I want to be respectful to everyone and polite to all. I mean no harm, and will retire from this discussion if my observation is considered out of place. I know that many here are non-Catholics, and some are in one way or another not settled in their faith as Catholics. I respect that.

In any case, underlying the discussions of the Coredemption and private revelations, or any of the other various strands of this thread, a gross misrepresentation of what the Catholic Church actually teaches about Mary is being put forward by some of the commenters. Furthermore, just taking you, James, at your word, without inferring anything beyond what you have already stated, in your own eyes what the Church actually teaches is not altogether decisive. I just think that needs to be pointed out.

I am willing to defend the necessity of Marian devotion per the teaching of the Church, if anyone is interested in challenging me on it, but only if the dispute is about what the Church actually teaches. I don’t see the point of debating the question of this poll with those who dispute the Church’s teaching on fundamental points of Catholic mariology.

Furthermore, I really don’t see how there can be an fruitful discussion of the relative merits of a new dogma within the Church, unless there is basic agreement on what the Church actually teaches about Our Lady, whether one agrees with that teaching or not.