Mary Co-Redemptrix Poll

[Memaw]

I truly wish you all could understand that Co-Redemptrix does NOT mean Mary is a redeemer. Please don’t stay stuck on that. Only Jesus Christ is our Redeemer. But Mary did co-operate with God in bringing about our redemption by saying YES to God’s will. The Church says Mary is the daughter of God the Father, she is the spouse of the Holy Spirit, and the Mother of God the Son. There IS NO greater Honor than that. There never has been nor ever will be any other human being that has held such a high honor. We can LOVE her as much as we want, Jesus loved her MORE, we can trust her with all our heart, God trusted her with HIS SON. She will never do anything but bring us closer to Her SON. I know, she has done that for me in so many ways. Every day is a new day to LOVE God for all HE has done for us.

2-11-08
Five cardinals have sent a letter inviting prelates worldwide to join them in petitioning Benedict XVI to declare a fifth Marian dogma they said would “proclaim the full Christian truth about Mary.”

The text, released last week, includes the petition that asks the Pope to proclaim Mary as “the Spiritual Mother of All Humanity, the co-redemptrix with Jesus the redeemer, mediatrix of all graces with Jesus the one mediator, and advocate with Jesus Christ on behalf of the human race.”

This is what all the fuss is all about, how about we let the Church handle it? God Bless, Memaw.

 

[JRKH]

Memaw,
I truly want to thank you for summing up you position so beautifully. I agree with the points you are making here, shich is why I am so saddened by the direction this thread has taken.

I would like to use your wonderful summary to explain my take on the OP regarding the Title and not to be confused with the person of the BVM as now proclaimed.

I truly wish you all could understand that Co-Redemptrix does NOT mean Mary is a redeemer. Please don’t stay stuck on that. Only Jesus Christ is our Redeemer. But Mary did co-operate with God in bringing about our redemption by saying YES to God’s will.

So why the need for the use of this term. It has been demonstrated by the poll and many posts that this is a problamatic term. Why not the term co-operatrix?

The Church says Mary is the daughter of God the Father, she is the spouse of the Holy Spirit, and the Mother of God the Son. There IS NO greater Honor than that. There never has been nor ever will be any other human being that has held such a high honor.

This is very true and leads to my question about declaring such a title. If Mary is already honored by the church above all other human being, why would it be necessary, or even desirable to add this title?

We can LOVE her as much as we want, Jesus loved her MORE, we can trust her with all our heart, God trusted her with HIS SON. She will never do anything but bring us closer to Her SON. I know, she has done that for me in so many ways. Every day is a new day to LOVE God for all HE has done for us.

Mary is a beautiful example of submission to God’s will. I love her for that. She is also a great and saintly lady to emulate. She is wise in the ways of all mothers which is why I believe that she doesn’t wish this title proclaimed dogmatically. She has “told” us this through this poll.

Memaw,
I apolgize for anything I might have said earlier in this thread, that caused any harm or hurt feeings and I do ask your forgiveness.
I hope that those charged with dealing with such declarations can learn of this thread and the other like it so they can see the kind of difficulties such a proclamation at this time would generate.
Finally I pray for the HS to guide His Church to a wise decision.

Peace to you
James

 

[JRKH]

2-11-08
Five cardinals have sent a letter inviting prelates worldwide to join them in petitioning Benedict XVI to declare a fifth Marian dogma they said would “proclaim the full Christian truth about Mary.”

The text, released last week, includes the petition that asks the Pope to proclaim Mary as **“the Spiritual Mother of All Humanity, the co-redemptrix with Jesus the redeemer, mediatrix of all graces with Jesus the one mediator, and advocate with Jesus Christ on behalf of the human race.” **

This is what all the fuss is all about, how about we let the Church handle it? God Bless, Memaw.

I highlighted the quote to demonstrate how easily this thing can be misunderstood and misinterpreted.
Three things are highlighted.

1. co-redemptrix with the redeemer.
2. mediatrix with the one mediator.
3. advocate with Jesus.

Now - Playing devils advocate here - note that the Cardinals don’t say the “one” redeemer but the cardinals did say with the “one” mediator.
My guess is that, those who are use to studying the Bible and pulling verses from here and there etc, would find this significant.
I realize that you can explain this to me.
I am only trying to point up the difficulties associated with this whole process.

Peace
James

 

[MaryJohnZ]

2-11-08
Five cardinals have sent a letter inviting prelates worldwide to join them in petitioning Benedict XVI to declare a fifth Marian dogma they said would “proclaim the full Christian truth about Mary.”

The text, released last week, includes the petition that asks the Pope to proclaim Mary as “the Spiritual Mother of All Humanity, the co-redemptrix with Jesus the redeemer, mediatrix of all graces with Jesus the one mediator, and advocate with Jesus Christ on behalf of the human race.”

This is what all the fuss is all about, how about we let the Church handle it? God Bless, Memaw.

AMEN!!! Let’s just pray for the Holy Spirit to fill our world and guide it and to over-shadow the Bride of Christ, His Church and renew and guide it into a new era of unity and fullness of Truth.
Love to all, mary

 

[Memaw]

Memaw,
I truly want to thank you for summing up you position so beautifully. I agree with the points you are making here, which is why I am so saddened by the direction this thread has taken.

I would like to use your wonderful summary to explain my take on the OP regarding the Title and not to be confused with the person of the BVM as now proclaimed.

So why the need for the use of this term. It has been demonstrated by the poll and many posts that this is a problamatic term. Why not the term co-operatrix?

This is very true and leads to my question about declaring such a title. If Mary is already honored by the church above all other human being, why would it be necessary, or even desirable to add this title?

Mary is a beautiful example of submission to God’s will. I love her for that. She is also a great and saintly lady to emulate. She is wise in the ways of all mothers which is why I believe that she doesn’t wish this title proclaimed dogmatically. She has “told” us this through this poll.

Memaw,
I apolgize for anything I might have said earlier in this thread, that caused any harm or hurt feeings and I do ask your forgiveness.
I hope that those charged with dealing with such declarations can learn of this thread and the other like it so they can see the kind of difficulties such a proclamation at this time would generate.
Finally I pray for the HS to guide His Church to a wise decision.

Peace to you
James

Good Morning JRKH, this will be our last day on this thread and I hope we can all part as friends and I thank you.
The title Co-Redemptrix means just that, she cooperated with God in our Redemption accomplished by Her SON. That was God’s will. He wanted it that way and who are we to argue with God.

Co-operatrix, (a word I’ve never heard before) wouldn’t make sense and certainly wouldn’t explain Mary’s role in our redemption. She co-operated with God all her life but in a very special way when the Angel appeared to her and said that God wished her to be the Mother of HIS SON. When she said “YES” that is when the Holy Spirit overshadowed her and she conceived of the Son of God. A beautiful Mystery that NONE of us will ever truly understand or fully appreciate, I am afraid.
There has been so much ridicule of Mary by non-Catholics ever since the protestant reformation and I think this will help to clarify the Catholic understanding of Our Lady’s place in the Catholic Church teaching. Personally, I like what the Cardinals are doing but we will just have to wait and watch for the Holy Spirit to work through the Church.
The Catholic Church is not a democracy, It is guided by the Holy Spirit and nothing will ever be taught by the magisterium that is NOT OK with HIM. We can trust the Church, Christ promised that and I TRUST HIM.

Now for my " personal opinion" and thats all this is… I think we are in a very serious situation ,world wide, spiritually, with all the divisions in christianity, (this forum proves just how serious that is) and all the lack of morals, abortion, marriage falling by the way-side, wars, pushing God out of our lives, we’re a big mess!!! Our Lord redeemed us once and for all on Calvary. He cannot redeem us again, but HE can hold HIS mother up as a perfect Christian so we can follow her example. He said, ‘Whoever does the Will of MY Father is my mother, my brother and sister.’ I think HE was telling us to follow Her example. At this time in our history, we need her more than ever, and at Fatima she did say, 'In the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph." I am praying for that day. Her Pure and Holy heart filled with nothing but LOVE for her GOD. Isn’t that what we should all be striving for? I believe we need the FULL Christian Truth about Mary proclaimed to all. Lets let the Church be the teacher and open our hearts to love and understanding. She truly is “The Spiritual Mother of ALL Humanity” God Bless, Memaw

 

[MaryJohnZ]

I am praying for that day. Her Pure and Holy heart filled with nothing but LOVE for her GOD. Isn’t that what we should all be striving for? I believe we need the FULL Christian Truth about Mary proclaimed to all. Lets let the Church be the teacher and open our hearts to love and understanding. She truly is “The Spiritual Mother of ALL Humanity” God Bless, Memaw]

I am with you wholeheartedly. I believe this is something that has been foretold by prophecy and that it will come to be. I have been waiting for the day for some years. here are some quotes I found:

“47. At the Council Paul VI solemnly proclaimed that Mary is the Mother of the Church, “that is, Mother of the entire Christian people, both faithful and pastors.”[134] Later, in 1968, in the Profession of Faith known as the “Credo of the People of God,” he restated this truth in an even more forceful way in these words: “We believe that the Most Holy Mother of God, the new Eve, the Mother of the Church, carries on in heaven her maternal role with regard to the members of Christ, cooperating in the birth and development of divine life in the souls of the redeemed.”[135]
From 'Mother of the Redeemer” John Paul II.1987 before the Marian Year

I also found this understanding by John Paul II about the scene when Jesus gives mary to John to be his Mother.

According to the original Greek, the Gospel text continues: “From that hour the disciple took her among his possessions” (Jn 19:27), thus stressing John’s ready and generous adherence to Jesus’ words and informing us about his behaviour for the whole of his life as the faithful guardian and docile son of the Virgin.

The hour of acceptance is that of the fulfilment of the work of salvation. Mary’s spiritual motherhood and the first manifestation of the new link between her and the Lord’s disciples begins precisely in this context.

John took the Mother “among his possessions”. These rather general words seem to highlight his initiative, full of respect and love, not only in taking Mary to his house but also in living his spiritual life in communion with her.

*In fact, a literal translation of the Greek expression “among his possessions” does not so much refer to material possessions since John—as St Augustine observes (In Ioan. Evang. tract. 119, 3)—“possessed nothing of his own”, but rather to the spiritual goods or gifts received from Christ: grace (Jn 1:16), the Word (Jn 12:48; 17:8), the Spirit (Jn 7:39; 14:17), the Eucharist (Jn 6:32-58)… *Among these gifts which come to him from the fact that he is loved by Jesus, the disciple accepts Mary as his mother, establishing a profound communion of life with her (cf. Redemptoris Mater, n. 45, note 130). From “Devotion to Mary is based on jesus Will” papal audience John Paul II 1997

I believe this means that the whole treasurehouse of God’s Church was placed in Mary’s Motherhood over the church by Christ, the source.

John Paul II in the “Mother of the Redeemer” explains how Mary was present in Christ before the beginning of time. He also exolains how her mediation does not replace Christ as the one Mediator but because she is so united with Christ she is praying within Him. He also shows how the wedding feast of Cana shows her solicitude for all of our needs when we “are out of wine”. That she is always praying for us, each one os us as a spiritual Mother.

This was a new beautiful understanding for me and I believe this title is meant to open the floodgate of those graces.
In a sense the Church is doind what Christ did from the cross.

God Bless, maryJohnZ

 

[Memaw]

I highlighted the quote to demonstrate how easily this thing can be misunderstood and misinterpreted.
Three things are highlighted.

1. co-redemptrix with the redeemer.
2. mediatrix with the one mediator.
3. advocate with Jesus.

Now - Playing devils advocate here - note that the Cardinals don’t say the “one” redeemer but the cardinals did say with the “one” mediator.
My guess is that, those who are use to studying the Bible and pulling verses from here and there etc, would find this significant.
I realize that you can explain this to me.
I am only trying to point up the difficulties associated with this whole process.

Peace
James

James,
Jesus is the one Redeemer, Co-Redemptix with the Redeemer. “With” not in place of, the Redeemer. Who is the Redeemer??? Jesus, of course. Mary Co-operated “with” Him by saying yes to God. Co -Redemptrix does not mean she is trying to compete with Her SON.
Mediatrix because she prays for us as we can pray for each other. But her prayers are so much more powerful than ours. Grace, (Jesus)came to us thru Her. We can go to HIM thru Her.

Advocate, She pleads our cause, we can do that for each other too. I can pray for you, I can plead your cause, but I can NEVER be a Co-Redemptrix, as only Mary filled that role in God’s Plan of salvation for us. I hope this helps you understand the terms a little better, God Bless, Memaw

 

[MaryJohnZ]

James,
Jesus is the one Redeemer, Co-Redemptix with the Redeemer. “With” not in place of, the Redeemer. Who is the Redeemer??? Jesus, of course. Mary Co-operated “with” Him by saying yes to God. Co -Redemptrix does not mean she is trying to compete with Her SON.
Mediatrix because she prays for us as we can pray for each other. But her prayers are so much more powerful than ours. Grace, (Jesus)came to us thru Her. We can go to HIM thru Her.

Advocate, She pleads our cause, we can do that for each other too. I can pray for you, I can plead your cause, but I can NEVER be a Co-Redemptrix, as only Mary filled that role in God’s Plan of salvation for us. I hope this helps you understand the terms a little better, God Bless, Memaw

Yes, and the one great mystery of the trinity is unity. Mary is not part of the trinity but she experienced a unique complete oneness with God that we cannot attain. The titles show that oneness.
I think that is something God needs to be glorified for because it was a great work he accomplished in her. Giving the title recognizes that work of God in Mary and Praises Him for it.

MJZ

 

[JRKH]

James,
Jesus is the one Redeemer, Co-Redemptix with the Redeemer. “With” not in place of, the Redeemer. Who is the Redeemer??? Jesus, of course. Mary Co-operated “with” Him by saying yes to God. Co -Redemptrix does not mean she is trying to compete with Her SON.
Mediatrix because she prays for us as we can pray for each other. But her prayers are so much more powerful than ours. Grace, (Jesus)came to us thru Her. We can go to HIM thru Her.

Advocate, She pleads our cause, we can do that for each other too. I can pray for you, I can plead your cause, but I can NEVER be a Co-Redemptrix, as only Mary filled that role in God’s Plan of salvation for us. I hope this helps you understand the terms a little better, God Bless, Memaw

Yup - See - I knew you could explain it. (As I said in my post)
But that wasn’t my point.

No matter how well intentioned this whole issue is, the fact remains that This Title will continue to be contentious and will only serve to cause additional problems for catholics and non-catholics alike.

My prayer is that the Church leave things as they are for now. Choosing not to act on this would not change a thing in so far as teaching is concerned, while avoiding a situation that would require a great deal of explaination.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

My prayer is that the Church leave things as they are for now. Choosing not to act on this would not change a thing in so far as teaching is concerned, while avoiding a situation that would require a great deal of explaination.

I join you in that prayer!

:harp:

:byzsoc: ​

:harp:

 

[Memaw]

Yup - See - I knew you could explain it. (As I said in my post)
But that wasn’t my point.

No matter how well intentioned this whole issue is, the fact remains that This Title will continue to be contentious and will only serve to cause additional problems for catholics and non-catholics alike.

My prayer is that the Church leave things as they are for now. Choosing not to act on this would not change a thing in so far as teaching is concerned, while avoiding a situation that would require a great deal of explaination.

The Catholic Church has continued to teach us all thru the 2,000 years of its existence and will do so till the End of the World. Her Wisdom is far greater than ours. Many people, even some Catholics, I’m sorry to say, still do not know what the term Immaculate Conception really means but that didn’t stop the Church from making it a dogma so I don’t think that is a good argument against what the Church does. Like Gamaliel said to the Sanhedrin when speaking about the Apostles (for preaching their beliefs), “If this movement of theirs is of human origin, it will break up of its own accord, but if it does in fact come from God, you will not only be unable to destroy them, but you might find yourselves fighting against GOD.” It really isn’t up to us to tell God what to do, or what NOT to do.
God Bless, Memaw

 

[MaryJohnZ]

No matter how well intentioned this whole issue is, the fact remains that This Title will continue to be contentious and will only serve to cause additional problems for catholics and non-catholics alike.

My prayer is that the Church leave things as they are for now. Choosing not to act on this would not change a thing in so far as teaching is concerned, while avoiding a situation that would require a great deal of explaination.

Kames did you see the Greek translation for the word “possession”
from the Gospel of John:"

The hour of acceptance is that of the fulfilment of the work of salvation. Mary’s spiritual motherhood and the first manifestation of the new link between her and the Lord’s disciples begins precisely in this context.

John took the Mother “among his possessions”. These rather general words seem to highlight his initiative, full of respect and love, not only in taking Mary to his house but also in living his spiritual life in communion with her.

In fact, a literal translation of the Greek expression “among his possessions” does not so much refer to material possessions since John—as St Augustine observes (In Ioan. Evang. tract. 119, 3)—“possessed nothing of his own”, but rather to the spiritual goods or gifts received from Christ: grace (Jn 1:16), the Word (Jn 12:48; 17:8), the Spirit (Jn 7:39; 14:17), the Eucharist (Jn 6:32-58)… Among these gifts which come to him from the fact that he is loved by Jesus, the disciple accepts Mary as his mother, establishing a profound communion of life with her (cf. Redemptoris Mater, n. 45, note 130). From “Devotion to Mary is based on Jesus Will” papal audience John Paul II 1997

I thought you would be interested since I believe it was you who concentrated on saying Mary did not have a universal Motherhood. Since you don’t want the title based on the teachings already being in the Church, at least, I hope something in this discussion helped you understand the teachings as they are already…beacuse proclaiming the new title won’t prevent future disunity if we are already in disunity to begin with…

I would pray that whether or not the title is proc;aimed (I believe it will be) all believers could come to understand Mary as their Mother.

God Bless…my last word on this…

 

[Paul_the_seaker]

Many have questioned the need for this definition. I think that it should be made clear that what is important is that the definition is not merely a title, but a greater insight into the mystery of God’s love and how He expressed it.

To get a handle on this, we must learn to read the Bible - but differetly. The Bible’s various books must read in relationship to each other. What I’m suggesting is something similar to what Jesus did for his disciples on the road to Emmaus. I assume that the two men to whom Jesus addressed Himself were devout Jews who knew the Scriptures thoroughtly, yet, they did not understand, till Jesus put it together for them. "Then he said to them,“what little sense you have! How slow you are to believe all that the prophets have announced! Did not the Messiah have to undergo all this so as to enter into his glory? Beginning, then, with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted for them every passage of Scripture which referred to Him.”

I think we can get some idea of this same process if we go to the Bible and read it this way - for example,in Genesis, after the sin takes place God announces, " I will enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers…"

Who is this woman? Who is the offspring? Could it be the mother of Christ and Christ Himself? Could this be the reason that Jesus calls his mother “Woman”? He does call her “Woman” just any time, but at specific moments. He calls her Woman at Cana when nudges Him to perform His first public sign. He calls her Woman again, when he is hanging on the cross.

For those of us who read the scriptures in this fashion, the title of Co-Redemptrix is not troublesome. But, as Jesus said, “let those who have ears, hear. And those who have eyes, see.”

I guess it would depend on how you read the Bible. I thank God we Catholics have an authority within the Church to guide us on its meaning. This also why I think it would be good for a definition on this issue be given. It may offend or confuse some, but what definition didn’t? So I am for the definition of this dogma,

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Yup - See - I knew you could explain it. (As I said in my post)
But that wasn’t my point.

No matter how well intentioned this whole issue is, the fact remains that This Title will continue to be contentious and will only serve to cause additional problems for catholics and non-catholics alike.

Remember what Jesus said?

Matthew 10:34-35

34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

Contentiousness is not a bad thing.

 

[ericktiu]

Many have questioned the need for this definition. I think that it should be made clear that what is important is that the definition is not merely a title, but a greater insight into the mystery of God’s love and how He expressed it.

To get a handle on this, we must learn to read the Bible - but differetly. The Bible’s various books must read in relationship to each other. What I’m suggesting is something similar to what Jesus did for his disciples on the road to Emmaus. I assume that the two men to whom Jesus addressed Himself were devout Jews who knew the Scriptures thoroughtly, yet, they did not understand, till Jesus put it together for them. "Then he said to them,“what little sense you have! How slow you are to believe all that the prophets have announced! Did not the Messiah have to undergo all this so as to enter into his glory? Beginning, then, with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted for them every passage of Scripture which referred to Him.”

I think we can get some idea of this same process if we go to the Bible and read it this way - for example,in Genesis, after the sin takes place God announces, " I will enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers…"

Who is this woman? Who is the offspring? Could it be the mother of Christ and Christ Himself? Could this be the reason that Jesus calls his mother “Woman”? He does call her “Woman” just any time, but at specific moments. He calls her Woman at Cana when nudges Him to perform His first public sign. He calls her Woman again, when he is hanging on the cross.

For those of us who read the scriptures in this fashion, the title of Co-Redemptrix is not troublesome. But, as Jesus said, “let those who have ears, hear. And those who have eyes, see.”

I guess it would depend on how you read the Bible. I thank God we Catholics have an authority within the Church to guide us on its meaning. This also why I think it would be good for a definition on this issue be given. It may offend or confuse some, but what definition didn’t? So I am for the definition of this dogma,/QUOTE]

Amen PAUL.

 

[GraceDK]

Mary

.
About bishops being infallible… well, I did not know there was such a teaching. I know that the Holy Spirit and Jesus is infallible and they are the whole and sole power that transforms bread into Body and wine into Blood.

Yes, and I did say they were infallible in teaching truth only if they are faithful to Pope who is infallible in proclaiming the teachings by virture of his office. The Bishop however can lose their gift by being unfaithful, which just make sense… And there are some leadership problems in our church unfortunately. So pray for Priests and Bishops and the Pope!

Listen Grace, don’t be downhearted just because this title is causing you trouble right now. I am sure you love Mary, and because you do believe she hears your prayers and Jesus does too, just ask them. Be quiet and listen to what they answer back
to you…

After all if we are people of faith we do believe they would answer the question. Listening in prayer is part of seeking. It is not wrong in anyway to question and doubt. If the church does proclaim the dogma, you can rest assured that God wanted it however and then ask God to help you understand. We all need to do that…
I have done it plenty of times and still do it.

There is plenty of evidence that this has been a part of tradition for a long while, so if it is to become explicit as a Dogma then God Willed that to happen.

Peace! Mary and Jesus love you and you aren’t the only Catholic who will struggle with the title. I know a lot of Priests who will struggle with it too,

God Bless, mary

Dear MaryJohn.
Thanks for your concern and kindness.
As you might realise my problem with this is more generel than just this one issue. I believe there is some kind of time-relativism in all things… I dont know how to explain… but let me say that concubinage was widespread in the church among the bishops in the middleages… Then you will say, what has that to do with anything? Well I just think that the Church is not perfect… Like dring the 2. World War I am convinced that the Church should have dealt with the nazis in a totally different way… and so too with the scism with the eastern church and with the pedofiles some years ago… We have certainly made very technical systems to explain our behaviour and theology in impressive systems… but the fact is what remains… behaviour is more important than words. What does it matter if you can reason and make thought buildings in order to justify behaviour and dogma so you live in a constant role where you say: “the Church never does anything wrong in important matters.” I believe it has made less than perfect choices so many times and will continue… That a certain thing can be done/proclaimed does not mean it should be at any cost… I am talking about the marian dogma. what good is it to proclaim such a dogma and alienate all our brothers from us. Is that wisdom?
I think both the co-redemtrix and the mediator of all graces are such stumblingsblogs that I cannot even begin to fathom why they have been made… I find it most clumsy expressions that easily tempt many to leave the Church.
So No… I dont agree with you. In this debate I have thus far been patronized numerous times, been called a heretic, an unenlightened person, someone steeped in protestantism, a sola-scriptura person, someone obstinate that just wont see, and the list goes on. I’d say: I pray… but so should you and all the others who just follow things blindly as far as I see.
Mary never redeemed anyone. Not a little bit and not at all. I cannot imagine the humble servant of God wanting us to make such a dogma. Thats all I have to say.
Now you may say that no one said she redeemed. Well… then quit the title because I see that there is only a couple of degrees left before you say she does redeem.

My English fails me here. I am sorry.

 

[MaryJohnZ]

MaryJohnZ;3327373:

Dear MaryJohn.
Thanks for your concern and kindness.
As you might realise my problem with this is more generel than just this one issue. I believe there is some kind of time-relativism in all things… I dont know how to explain… but let me say that concubinage was widespread in the church among the bishops in the middleages… Then you will say, what has that to do with anything? Well I just think that the Church is not perfect… Like dring the 2. World War I am convinced that the Church should have dealt with the nazis in a totally different way… and so too with the scism with the eastern church and with the pedofiles some years ago… We have certainly made very technical systems to explain our behaviour and theology in impressive systems… but the fact is what remains… behaviour is more important than words. What does it matter if you can reason and make thought buildings in order to justify behaviour and dogma so you live in a constant role where you say: “the Church never does anything wrong in important matters.” I believe it has made less than perfect choices so many times and will continue…

Dear Grace,
Your English is very good, my typing is terrible,Thank you for your reply. I understand your feelings, because I think your concerns are based more on feelings and emotions than on
the universal direction of the church. I haven’t always had positive experiences with the church either and know how easy it is to see it as an institution of people, and some of them not very nice at times. But that is just it…all thos different things you mention were more about individuals within the church then the church itself. That is what I keep my eyes on when people within the church persecute me because I am more orthodox.

I am glad we all agree that the Holy Spirit will lead the church.

I woke up this morning with a great sense of fear for the lives of the Cardinals proposing this title though. I know in my heart this is something Satan would not want to happen. I am praying for their protection from harm, and the Pope as well.

I went to a symposium about a year ago at a Protestant college in Massachusetts (Gordon College).The symposium was called “Most Highly Favored One” and it had theologians from the Protestant faith, the Catholic and the Orthodox faith all discussing their views on Mary.

I could see how much the Holy Spirit was working to bring the three main divisions of Christian belief back together again.
At one point a Protestant theologian spoke and he said that Protestants are always pointing their finger at Catholics and accusing them of 'Mary worship" but that Protestants need to think about the fact that what they often do with the bible can be called “bibliolotry” or bible worship as well. It was something I never thought I would hear a Protestant say.

The woman theologian who was Protestant said she had talked to so many Protestant women and they all told her how close they felt to Mary, but then told her quietly not to mention that to their ministers. She had just written a book about that and at the end of the symposium she stood up and said she could say she believed Mary was the Mother of all believers. It was an amazing moment to witness.( sorry I can’t remember the name because I didn’t think I would need to)

The Holy Spirit will take care os this. Be at peace. But pray for protection for these cardinals and our Pope.

God Bless you, Mary

 

[JRKH]

The poll closes this morning.

To all who have participated in the poll and especially those who participated in the discussion I offer my thanks.

The voting has pretty clearly shown a need for greater reflection on this matter.

It was not my intent that this thread evolve as it did from a discussion of the Title to a free-for-all on Marion doctrine, but that is the way of open forums.

It pleases me to see the conciliatory posts here at the end. I will not try to draw any conclusions other than to say that we have all learned some things. (I know I did)

As I said in an earlier post, I am now going to ask that this thread be closed. I think it has all been said.

May the peace of Christ be with all of you.
May the Holy Spirit continue to guide the Church
May God protect His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI

Peace
James

 

[Memaw]

Many have questioned the need for this definition. I think that it should be made clear that what is important is that the definition is not merely a title, but a greater insight into the mystery of God’s love and how He expressed it.

To get a handle on this, we must learn to read the Bible - but differetly. The Bible’s various books must read in relationship to each other. What I’m suggesting is something similar to what Jesus did for his disciples on the road to Emmaus. I assume that the two men to whom Jesus addressed Himself were devout Jews who knew the Scriptures thoroughtly, yet, they did not understand, till Jesus put it together for them. "Then he said to them,“what little sense you have! How slow you are to believe all that the prophets have announced! Did not the Messiah have to undergo all this so as to enter into his glory? Beginning, then, with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted for them every passage of Scripture which referred to Him.”

I think we can get some idea of this same process if we go to the Bible and read it this way - for example,in Genesis, after the sin takes place God announces, " I will enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers…"

Who is this woman? Who is the offspring? Could it be the mother of Christ and Christ Himself? Could this be the reason that Jesus calls his mother “Woman”? He does call her “Woman” just any time, but at specific moments. He calls her Woman at Cana when nudges Him to perform His first public sign. He calls her Woman again, when he is hanging on the cross.

For those of us who read the scriptures in this fashion, the title of Co-Redemptrix is not troublesome. But, as Jesus said, “let those who have ears, hear. And those who have eyes, see.”

I guess it would depend on how you read the Bible. I thank God we Catholics have an authority within the Church to guide us on its meaning. This also why I think it would be good for a definition on this issue be given. It may offend or confuse some, but what definition didn’t? So I am for the definition of this dogma,

Thank You, Paul, great explanation!

I think I explained the “woman” thing already, maybe not on this thread but on one of them. I learned that many years ago from and very knowledgable priest Bible Scholar. Yes, Mary is the Women in Genesis, which means “Mother of all”. She is the New Eve. And yes it does depend on how you read the Bible. If we interpret it by ourselves like non-catholics do then we can come up with all kinds of wrong interpretations. We need the help of the Church to guide us. It is the Church that helps us fit the N.T and the O.T. together. Do you know that if you go to Mass every day for 3 years, you will have heard the WHOLE Bible read to you. And protestants think Catholics don’t read the Bible. Just because we don’t lift verses out and make them what WE want.
Today, with all the anti-catholic bashing out there, we Catholics need to know our faith and be willing and able to defend it. I find it a joy to learn but I make sure I learn from the right people. Catholic Answers do just that, you can learn from them and trust them. Also EWTN Catholic Cable Network, (better than watching trashy sit-coms.) There are many good books you can read. The Faith of the Early Church Fathers by Jurgens, Any book from Ignatious Press is trustworthy, Scott Haun & Fr. Corapi books and tapes. there are so many out there if your willing to look. Its true, the mind is a terrible thing to waste, especially if you waist it on junk.
PS. I have also learned that it is best to let the Church handle these decisions about Mary as my opinion may very well be wrong. Besides its not up to me anyway, its the HOLY SPIRIT. God Bless, Memaw.
P.S.S I hope they don’t close it as it is good to see the pros and cons.

 

[GraceDK]

"… I understand your feelings, because I think your concerns are based more on feelings and emotions than on
the universal direction of the church. "

— Nope… I believe no one is exempt from having feelings and very few are objective in their resoning. I have experienced some things in my Catholic parish that were totally unacceptable but I remain there because I am aware that one priest’s example shall not keep me from the Sacraments.
But my studies and reflections, and my way with Jesus thus far leads me to the conclusion that calling Mary Co-redemtrix would damage not only my own relationship with the church but also all my brothers with whom I always long for unity. So I can say to you : I believe your concerns are based mostly on feelings" but I dont say that, for I dont see that as very respectful. It just might be that we have both made a good amount of looking into the issue but we have reached different conclusions.

“I haven’t always had positive experiences with the church either and know how easy it is to see it as an institution of people, and some of them not very nice at times.”

— I am sorry about that. I hope that you have been courageous enough not to call silence humility but have tried to get the evil out of our midst. As far as I can see, the biggest menace in the western church today is lethargy… this includes a laity that is way too passive.

“But that is just it…all thos different things you mention were more about individuals within the church then the church itself. That is what I keep my eyes on when people within the church persecute me because I am more orthodox.”

— That is where I dont agree with you Mary. I want to remind you that God betrothed Israel to Himself in the OT. He promised them total faithfulness and leading if they would keep His commands, love and be humble… But still… with all their electedness, they still did not recognise the Messiah when He came. Today the rabbis and the jewish people still wait for their Messiah because they believe they were infallible… Think about that Mary. Dont say they did not have the promises that we have… they did! and God is no less God because they failed Him. Often in the OT He came to them and asked them to bathe in ashes and repent as a people /ecclesia because of their abominable practices… yes… but today no one will repent… indeed we, as a people, cast the blame away and therefore the Holy Spirit cannot fully give us what He intended to.
… I will remind you that John Paul II apologised to the Jewish people some years ago. for what? If his gesture was only his own and not the Church’s then what was it worth? But now you say the Church never makes mistakes… Oh sister dont you see that his gestures on behalf of the whole Church was one of the most Christlike gestures a pope has ever made. That is greatness to humble ourselves… The one who says he has no sin is a liar and the truth is not in him, says the Bible. But we think that if we time that with a billion we will be safe and alright…

“I am glad we all agree that the Holy Spirit will lead the church.”

— The Holy Spirit is always-already in us when we love Christ. We are His Temples. He is the force that make us repent.

“I woke up this morning with a great sense of fear for the lives of the Cardinals proposing this title though. I know in my heart this is something Satan would not want to happen. I am praying for their protection from harm, and the Pope as well.”

— You speak as though you think I would agree on such a statement. For my part I don’t paint the cardinals and the marian dogma on one side and satan on the other. I believe there is a grey area… there is also a thing called psyche. If I would be very harsh I could say that maybe satan exactly wants the church preoccupied with marian dogma in a time where She should do other more pressing things. But for me to give such a statement would be prideful… it would falsely display a wisdom that i do not possess. I dont think you do either… therefore neither do I find your words fitting here.

“I went to a symposium about a year ago at a Protestant college in Massachusetts (Gordon College).The symposium was called “Most Highly Favored One” and it had theologians from the Protestant faith, the Catholic and the Orthodox faith all discussing their views on Mary.
(…) The woman theologian who was Protestant said she had talked to so many Protestant women and they all told her how close they felt to Mary, but then told her quietly not to mention that to their ministers.(…)”

— Yeah… some protestants… especially in the traditional protestant denominations find Mary very inspirational. A few of them dont even mind reciting the rosary… but these are at odds with the conservative streams of their own churches, so I dont find such confusing signals very healthy. I believe its better that people are where thay are with consent and faithfulness to their tradition. I have grown up in protestantism and evangelicalism and I have only ever once heard a girl say that she would like to pray to Mary … this was, to stay in the subject, precisely an utterance of subjective feelings, and therefore proves nothing about the point in question. The majority of reformed christians have a gut feeling that Mary should be left out except for as a role model of humility. They will defend this as an objective truth with the same sense of security that you have in the Catholic Church. Oh yes… the thought of infallibility is thriving everywhere in Christ’s Body…and all have good arguments.

“The Holy Spirit will take care os this. Be at peace. But pray for protection for these cardinals and our Pope.”

— I pray for Unity and Humility and Love in the Church. And that we will let the Holy Spirit reign and not men and theology.
Shalom to you Mary.