Mary demonstrates remarkable power over JesusJn 2:1-5

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*On the third day a wedding took place at Cana in Galilee. Jesus’ mother was there, and Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding. When the wine was gone, Jesus’ mother said to him, “They have no more wine.” “Dear woman, why do you involve me?” Jesus replied. “My time has not yet come.” His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.” *John 2:1-5

This passage is truly extraordinary and singular in the Bible. It has been misused many times supposedly to show that Jesus “rebuked” his mother and she is therefore no one special nor particularly honored.

The truth is exactly the opposite. If you read it carefully you will see that she has unbelievable confidence in her own God given authority over Jesus and the Holy Spirit confirms it.

To see this clearly, I will paraphrase the dialogue in modern day language and try to express the sentiments in an exaggerated form to convey the real meaning.

Mary:** “They are out of wine, you should do something about it.**

Jesus: “Why are you bothering me? My time isn’t here yet”

Mary, unsaid – with such supreme confidence that she doesn’t even need to speak it --“Be careful how you talk to your mother. It doesn’t matter if your time is here or not. I’ve told you the problem and I’m not going to say it again, I’m not going to explain and I’m not going to beg, just fix it.

Jesus, unsaid: Yes Mother.

Mary to the servants – now with divine confidence that Jesus will fix it and confirmed by the Holy Spirit who tells her Jesus is not going to do it with his own hands; he is going to work thru the servants instead – Do whatever he tells you.

Mary’s divine confidence comes from two reasons. First, she is his mother and her son will honor his mother. Second, she knows very well that she is the spouse of the Holy Spirit and she has been given grace, authority and inspiration by the Holy Spirit to request things that will benefit her son.

This is an astounding display of The Fathers wisdom, Jesus meekness and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The Blessed Virgin Mary is “blessed among women” and a great part of “the riches of Christ” and if you miss Mary you will miss out on much of the riches Christ offers you.
 
I’d replace “power over” with “loving influence”. Or “Jesus was loyally devoted to Mary’s wishes”.

“Power” in this context sends the wrong connotations, in my opinion.
 
NotWorthy said:
I’d replace “power over” with “loving influence”. Or “Jesus was loyally devoted to Mary’s wishes”.

“Power” in this context sends the wrong connotations, in my opinion.
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I agree. “Power over” may give someone the wrong idea. I agree with NotWorthy in that “loving influence” sounds alot better.
 
chrisg93 said:
*On the third day a wedding took place at Cana in Galilee. Jesus’ mother was there, and Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding. When the wine was gone, Jesus’ mother said to him, “They have no more wine.” “Dear woman, why do you involve me?” Jesus replied. “My time has not yet come.” His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.” *John 2:1-5

This passage is truly extraordinary and singular in the Bible. It has been misused many times supposedly to show that Jesus “rebuked” his mother and she is therefore no one special nor particularly honored.

The truth is exactly the opposite. If you read it carefully you will see that she has unbelievable confidence in her own God given authority over Jesus and the Holy Spirit confirms it.

To see this clearly, I will paraphrase the dialogue in modern day language and try to express the sentiments in an exaggerated form to convey the real meaning.

Mary:** “They are out of wine, you should do something about it.**

Jesus: “Why are you bothering me? My time isn’t here yet”

Mary, unsaid – with such supreme confidence that she doesn’t even need to speak it --“Be careful how you talk to your mother. It doesn’t matter if your time is here or not. I’ve told you the problem and I’m not going to say it again, I’m not going to explain and I’m not going to beg, just fix it.

Jesus, unsaid: Yes Mother.

Mary to the servants – now with divine confidence that Jesus will fix it and confirmed by the Holy Spirit who tells her Jesus is not going to do it with his own hands; he is going to work thru the servants instead – Do whatever he tells you.

Mary’s divine confidence comes from two reasons. First, she is his mother and her son will honor his mother. Second, she knows very well that she is the spouse of the Holy Spirit and she has been given grace, authority and inspiration by the Holy Spirit to request things that will benefit her son.

This is an astounding display of The Fathers wisdom, Jesus meekness and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The Blessed Virgin Mary is “blessed among women” and a great part of “the riches of Christ” and if you miss Mary you will miss out on much of the riches Christ offers you.
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consider this in addition to your point. Haydock Bible Commentary

Ver. 1. The Mother of Jesus was present. It is supposed she was then a widow, since in all the rest of the history of Jesus, not a single word occurs respecting St. Joseph. (Calmet)

Ver. 3. They have no wine. The blessed virgin Mother was not ignorant of the divine power of her Son, and that the time was come when he designed to make himself known to the world. She could not make her request in more modest terms. (Witham)

Ver. 4. Some of the Fathers have spoken without sufficient precaution on this action of the blessed Virgin; supposing she was actuated by some inclination to vanity, in begging her Son to perform a miracle on this occasion; that some of the glory of it might accrue to her, and that on this account our Saviour answers her with severity, saying, Woman, (not Mother) what is it to thee or me. Other Fathers, with more reason, attribute the interference of the blessed Virgin to her charity and compassion for the new married couple. Whatever turn be given to our Saviour’s answer, it must be acknowledged it has in it the appearance of something severe. But the Fathers have explained it with mildness, observing that our Saviour only meant to say, Mother, what affair is it of ours if they want wine? Ought we to concern ourselves about that? Others think that he wished, by these words, to let his Mother know that she must not forestall the time appointed by the heavenly Father, as if her demand were unseasonable and out of time. But most of the Fathers and best commentators understand, that he speaks here not as man and Son of Mary, but as God; and in that quality, he observes to his Mother, I have nothing in common with you. It is not for you to prescribe when miracles are to be performed, which are not to be expected in compliance with any human respect. I know when my power is to be manifested for the greater glory of God. (Calmet) —See the like forms of speech, Mark i. 24; Luke iv. 34; &c. — My hour is not yet come. It is not yet time. He waited till the wine was quite done, lest any should believe that he had only increased the quantity, or had only mixed water with the wine. He would have his first miracle to be incontestable, and that all the company should be witnesses of it. (St. Augustine, et alii patres passim. — Christ’s first miracle in the New Testament, was a kind of transubstantiation in changing water into wine; the first miracle Moses performed when sent to the Jews, was transubstantiation. (Exodus iv.) The first Moses and Aaron performed, when sent to the Egyptians, was transubstantiation. (Exodus vii.)

Where did this unsaid stuff come from???
 
In my original post I wanted to show that Mary had more than loving influence, she had authority and control. She did not ASK Jesus, she pretty much directed him. Maybe the title should say “authority” or “direction” instead of “power”. Anyone can critize my vocabulary, what I really wanted was to show how amazing her power, or control or direction over Jesus was in this instance.

Tobin,
Your quotation is exactly the kind I think has missed the point of the passage. She did “forstall his time” and the Holy Spirit confirmed her correctness. I Jesus meant “it is not for you to prescribe miricles”, then she did proscribe and he did obey.

The “unsaid” is my attemp to explain in rvery day language>
 
chrisg93 said:
In my original post I wanted to show that Mary had more than loving influence, she had authority and control. She did not ASK Jesus, she pretty much directed him. Maybe the title should say “authority” or “direction” instead of “power”. Anyone can critize my vocabulary, what I really wanted was to show how amazing her power, or control or direction over Jesus was in this instance.

Tobin,
Your quotation is exactly the kind I think has missed the point of the passage. She did “forstall his time” and the Holy Spirit confirmed her correctness. I Jesus meant “it is not for you to prescribe miricles”, then she did proscribe and he did obey.

The “unsaid” is my attemp to explain in rvery day language>
Click to expand...
My quotation is from the Haydock Bible Commentary on those exact verses that you are referring to. As for the unsaid, I merely wanted to know where your sources come from. People who aren’t as advanced may misinterpret what your point is. With the Haydock Bible I am merely adding to your point that your are making.
 
Did Joseph have power over Mary? Why did an angel tell Joseph
to take “the mother and her child” to Egypt? Why didn’t an angel tell Mary to take another way home from Herod’s? Why should an angel speak to Joseph about this instead of Mary? After all,
it is she who is the Queen of all saints.

Well, Mary was known to “treasure things” in her heart. She
didn’t go around telling the whole neighborhood how magnificent
her child was, even though He was the Son of God.

My point is, if an angel can tell Joseph what to do with Mary,
then God can tell Mary what to do with Jesus. We would never
find out about it if this happened, because Mary would just “treasure it in her heart” like she did everything else.

I don’t think the whole thing has anything to do with authority,
because neither Mary, nor Joseph, nor Jesus would claim their
authority over each other, they are beyond this, but each knew they had the authority to do whatever God tells them.
 
chrisg93 said:
In my original post I wanted to show that Mary had more than loving influence, she had authority and control. She did not ASK Jesus, she pretty much directed him. Maybe the title should say “authority” or “direction” instead of “power”. Anyone can critize my vocabulary, what I really wanted was to show how amazing her power, or control or direction over Jesus was in this instance.
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In that case, I think you have a good premise and not a valid conclusion.
 
I think it is very prudent to note that Jesus is the Creator of the Universe, and that if he did anything for Mary it was an act of grace. I think it’s a foolish thing to suggest that you can somehow gain special favors from the Lord by getting his earthly mother to go talk to him for you.

And yes, I object strongly to the term “power over Jesus.”
 
I think if this passage is accompanied with the story of Jesus’ stay at the Temple when he was 12 it covers the time that Jesus submitted to authority from above. Namely, parental authority.
 
Crimson_Seraph said:
I think it is very prudent to note that Jesus is the Creator of the Universe, and that if he did anything for Mary it was an act of grace. I think it’s a foolish thing to suggest that you can somehow gain special favors from the Lord by getting his earthly mother to go talk to him for you.

And yes, I object strongly to the term “power over Jesus.”
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"He said to them, "Because of your little faith. For truly I tell you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, “Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you.” Mt 17:20

We are the fools, I think you have it backwards.

No one gains “special favors” for themselves by asking Mary to pray for us, but we lose favor by not respecting, above all other men, Our Mother Mary, the woman God chose to enter the world through.

“Then he said to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” And from that hour the disciple took her into his own home.” Jn 19:27

He chose her first, and gave her to us as our mother, so why do we reject His gift to us?

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

Mark
 
chrisg93 said:
In my original post I wanted to show that Mary had more than loving influence, she had authority and control. She did not ASK Jesus, she pretty much directed him. Maybe the title should say “authority” or “direction” instead of “power”. Anyone can critize my vocabulary, what I really wanted was to show how amazing her power, or control or direction over Jesus was in this instance.
Click to expand...

The problem with saying she had “power over” Him is that it all too easily suggests that Jesus was “tied to her apron-strings”, & that he was her poodle; & is so in Heaven. This is especially damaging if it’s joined to the idea that Jesus is angry with sinners, & has to be influenced by the merciful Virgin not to destroy them. This second idea was part and parcel of Catholic piety until very recently - if it is dead even yet. And it is completely alien to the NT.​

Anything which puts Mary in charge of Jesus as more important, readier to listen, more merciful, more powerful, more reliable than He, must be resisted. Mary is **not **our Saviouress - despite what some would have us think:
  • Ever since Adam Widenfeld, in his Monita Salutaria (n. 10), recorded his antipathy to the doctrine and the title, giving classic form to the modern bias against it, by quoting our Lady (falsely) as reproving the use of titles such as Salvatrix and Coredemptrix, defenders of the doctrine, even after its general recognition as part of the deposit of faith, have been bedeviled by a certain defensiveness about it. Thus, Vatican II clearly teaches the fact of the coredemption, yet out of “ecumenical” sensitivity the title “Coredemptrix” was not used by the Council.
  • christendom-awake.org/pages/marian/5thdogma/fehlner1-1.htm
    The essay from which this is quoted is long, & worth reading, if only as an example of the lengths some are prepared to go to in order to defend the indefencible. The Gospel is **not **about Mary, & neither is the NT. For once, I agree with Jack Chick: can it really please the BVM when she is placed above her Son ? John XXIII did not think so either.
Tobin,
Your quotation is exactly the kind I think has missed the point of the passage. She did “forstall his time” and the Holy Spirit confirmed her correctness. I Jesus meant “it is not for you to prescribe miricles”, then she did proscribe and he did obey.

The “unsaid” is my attemp to explain in rvery day language>
Click to expand...

How do you get *that *out of the text ? He doesn’t tell her to back off, but neither is she allowed to let her ideas over-ride God’s timing for Jesus to act. She clearly has a very limited understanding of Jesus’ priorities - so she has to be told as much.​

 
Mark77 said:
"He said to them, "Because of your little faith. For truly I tell you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, “Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you.” Mt 17:20

We are the fools, I think you have it backwards.

No one gains “special favors” for themselves by asking Mary to pray for us, but we lose favor by not respecting, above all other men, Our Mother Mary, the woman God chose to enter the world through.

“Then he said to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” And from that hour the disciple took her into his own home.” Jn 19:27

He chose her first, and gave her to us as our mother, so why do we reject His gift to us?

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

Mark
Click to expand...

So when did you last move a mountain 🙂 ? Enquiring minds like to know…​

 
Thanks for your replies. Obviously I never said or suggested that Mary is greater than Jesus, to claim I said that is that’s a great misreading. God and Jesus are Divine, Mary is not, her grace comes from God. My point is that in this instance it was not a ‘rebuke’ to Mary which is a position that has been greatly misused over many years by many people.

Briefly… Mary was the causation of Jesus first miracle. She initiated the miracle. Jesus admitted she was involving him in an untimely way and she overcame his objection without a word. She knew - how else but by inspiration of the Holy Spirit - that he would obey her and he would do it through the servants. She then directed the miracle to it completion by directing the servants. She was in-charge, and divinely confident, not subservient. She was the initiator and the director of Jesus first miracle. He did not rebuke her, rather she rejected his objection and he immediately obeyed her.

This is a huge testimony to the power of Mary and it is God, Jesus and The Holy Spirit all testifiing to her amazing authority and blessedness.
 
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