Mary did not have sin

[Bill_Pick]

Are there any exceptions to the word ‘All’?
What about Jesus Christ? Did He in His humanity ever sin?
What about babies and those with a mental retardation who have no reasoning power? Have they sinned? Have children below the age of reason sinned? Have comatose and senile people sinned? As you can see, there are exceptions.

Luke 1:6, regarding Zachary and Elizabeth, the parents of John the Baptist, “Both were just before GOD, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord”.

Luke 1:15, regarding John the Baptist, “For he shall be great before the Lord; he shall drink no wine or strong drink, and shall be filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mothers womb”.

Do these verses sound as if Zachary, Elizabeth, and John the Baptist have sinned?

You can readily see that there are many exceptions to the term ‘All have sinned’. Since I have shown there are many exceptions to the word ‘ALL’, why then should anyone not allow one more exception, the Mother of GOD?Are there any exceptions to the word ‘All’?
What about Jesus Christ? Did He in His humanity ever sin?
What about babies and those with a mental retardation who have no reasoning power? Have they sinned? Have children below the age of reason sinned? Have comatose and senile people sinned? As you can see, there are exceptions.

Luke 1:6, regarding Zachary and Elizabeth, the parents of John the Baptist, “Both were just before GOD, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord”.

Luke 1:15, regarding John the Baptist, “For he shall be great before the Lord; he shall drink no wine or strong drink, and shall be filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mothers womb”.

Do these verses sound as if Zachary, Elizabeth, and John the Baptist have sinned?

You can readily see that there are many exceptions to the term ‘All have sinned’. Since I have shown there are many exceptions to the word ‘ALL’, why then should anyone not allow one more exception, the Mother of GOD? CATHLOIC TREASER CHEST

 

[Della]

This is the whole problem with quoting Romans 3:23 out of context: quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/r/rsv/rsv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=5181478. St. Paul is discussing the differences between the Jewish and Gentile believer and stating the Jew has no advantage over the Gentile because both groups are sinners. He never meant to comment on the sinlessness of Mary or Jesus or anyone else in particular. He was speaking in general terms on another topic altogether.

 

[JohnDamian]

We declare, pronounce and define that the doctrine which holds that the Blessed Virgin Mary, at the first instant of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace of the Omnipotent God, in virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of mankind, was preserved immaculate from all stain of original sin, has been revealed by God, and therefore should firmly and constantly be believed by all the faithful.
—Pope Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus, December 8, 1854

Infallible declaration on the immaculate conception of Mary.

 

[Melchior_1]

Scope out forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=463745 for some interesting notes on the topic of the Immaculate Conception.

/cheap plug.

 

[Wesley7]

Blessed Virgin Mary, pray for us.

 

[JonNC]

We declare, pronounce and define that the doctrine which holds that the Blessed Virgin Mary, at the first instant of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace of the Omnipotent God, in virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of mankind, was preserved immaculate from all stain of original sin, has been revealed by God, and therefore should firmly and constantly be believed by all the faithful.
—Pope Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus, December 8, 1854

Infallible declaration on the immaculate conception of Mary.

JohnDanian,
The only problem I have with the declaration is that it binds the conscience of the believer, when there is no explicit scriptural support for it. Frankly, to me, it is a reasonable and believable statement of the Blessed Virgin’s condition, necessary for being the Theotokos. Reasonable, yes. Binding, no.

Jon

 

[peresieh]

Mary was preserved from all “stain of original sin.” What is the stain of original sin? Mary still suffered the consequences of original sin-hardships, fear for her life, sorrow at the death of Jesus, her own death.

 

[Della]

JohnDanian,
The only problem I have with the declaration is that it binds the conscience of the believer, when there is no explicit scriptural support for it. Frankly, to me, it is a reasonable and believable statement of the Blessed Virgin’s condition, necessary for being the Theotokos. Reasonable, yes. Binding, no.

Jon

Luke 1:28 And he came to her and said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!”

Catholic teaching isn’t a matter of prooftexting Bible verses, rather, it is an exploration of the fullest implications based on the whole of Sacred Tradition, of which the Scriptures are a large part. There are other references that speak of the specialness of the Theotokos in both Scripture and the Church Fathers, as well as statements by the Magisterium. In binding our consciences it makes it a matter of deepest importance because it reinforces belief in Christ, which is the purpose of all the Marian teachings.

 

[JohnDamian]

JohnDanian,
The only problem I have with the declaration is that it binds the conscience of the believer, when there is no explicit scriptural support for it. Frankly, to me, it is a reasonable and believable statement of the Blessed Virgin’s condition, necessary for being the Theotokos. Reasonable, yes. Binding, no.

Jon

I wouldn’t like to quote the full document because it is quite long. But I included the part that is fixed as infallible. However, the context, scriptural support and discussion on it are included in the full document, the name of which I included for those dedicated readers.

 

[JonNC]

Luke 1:28 And he came to her and said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!”

Catholic teaching isn’t a matter of prooftexting Bible verses, rather, it is an exploration of the fullest implications based on the whole of Sacred Tradition, of which the Scriptures are a large part. There are other references that speak of the specialness of the Theotokos in both Scripture and the Church Fathers, as well as statements by the Magisterium. In binding our consciences it makes it a matter of deepest importance because it reinforces belief in Christ, which is the purpose of all the Marian teachings.

None of the first part I dispute. Surely, the Blessed Virgin was filled with His grace (no argument from me regarding what that means). The specifics of the IC is what I am referring to. Luther maintained that she was free of personal sin. I think that is the view of the Orthodox, too. When she was filled with his grace is, at least in scripture, unknown.
I don’t see how holding to the point of conception necessarily reinforces faith in Christ.

Jon

 

[Della]

None of the first part I dispute. Surely, the Blessed Virgin was filled with His grace (no argument from me regarding what that means). The specifics of the IC is what I am referring to. Luther maintained that she was free of personal sin. I think that is the view of the Orthodox, too. When she was filled with his grace is, at least in scripture, unknown.
I don’t see how holding to the point of conception necessarily reinforces faith in Christ.

Jon

It reinforces it because Christ’s flesh is the flesh of Mary. IOW, the Incarnation was pure and Christ was pure–the pure sacrifice, the pure high priest. Satan could never throw Jesus’ mother in his face, could he? Not when she was conceived without the stain of original sin. You just know that if Satan could have he would have made an issue of it. And even today many people claim that Jesus’ being just as human as the rest of us means that he wasn’t fully divine. Indeed, the pronouncement of Mary, Mother of God was to combat this very ancient heresy. Her absolute purity ensures Christ’s absolute purity, as well. The IC is a very ancient concept that not all theologians accepted/argued for, but theologians are speculators not makers of doctrine. When else would God have granted her this grace than at her conception? Note that the Angel Gabriel called Mary “full of grace” as a title, instead of her given name. Surely it was, therefore, something she had had since conception. That’s reasonable enough.

 

[SteveVH]

Are there any exceptions to the word ‘All’?
What about Jesus Christ? Did He in His humanity ever sin?
What about babies and those with a mental retardation who have no reasoning power? Have they sinned? Have children below the age of reason sinned? Have comatose and senile people sinned? As you can see, there are exceptions.

Luke 1:6, regarding Zachary and Elizabeth, the parents of John the Baptist, “Both were just before GOD, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord”.

Luke 1:15, regarding John the Baptist, “For he shall be great before the Lord; he shall drink no wine or strong drink, and shall be filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mothers womb”.

Do these verses sound as if Zachary, Elizabeth, and John the Baptist have sinned?

You can readily see that there are many exceptions to the term ‘All have sinned’. Since I have shown there are many exceptions to the word ‘ALL’, why then should anyone not allow one more exception, the Mother of GOD?Are there any exceptions to the word ‘All’?
What about Jesus Christ? Did He in His humanity ever sin?
What about babies and those with a mental retardation who have no reasoning power? Have they sinned? Have children below the age of reason sinned? Have comatose and senile people sinned? As you can see, there are exceptions.

You can readily see that there are many exceptions to the term ‘All have sinned’. Since I have shown there are many exceptions to the word ‘ALL’, why then should anyone not allow one more exception, the Mother of GOD? CATHLOIC TREASER CHEST

The main difference that I see is that the doctrine purports that Mary was conceived free from original sin. It would follow that she would not be subject to concupiscence (the tendency toward sin) which was a consequence of the fall and therefore could remain without sin after her birth.

Original sin is passed on as part of our human nature. It is like a carton of spoiled milk. Each glass that is poured will contain spoiled milk. In order for a woman to be the mother of God, she would, by necessity, have to be free from the stain of original sin. This was not accomplished due to Mary’s own merits, but rather the merits of her Son which are eternal; outside of space and time. Does anyone doubt that God could accomplish this if that was His choice?

Aside from Jesus, the Church has not claimed that any others were free from sin. As for the verses stated above, I could say, immediately after receiving the sacrament of Reconciliation that even I could be called “just before God and walking blamelessly…”, yet I have certainly sinned. I am sure there are also problems due to translations from Hebrew or Greek into our native tongue.

My point is that, even if there were (which I doubt) a few others who lived without committing personal sin, Mary is different and wouldn’t be included in the same category.

 

[Glico]

Are there any exceptions to the word ‘All’?
What about Jesus Christ? Did He in His humanity ever sin?
What about babies and those with a mental retardation who have no reasoning power? Have they sinned? Have children below the age of reason sinned? Have comatose and senile people sinned? As you can see, there are exceptions.

Luke 1:6, regarding Zachary and Elizabeth, the parents of John the Baptist, “Both were just before GOD, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord”.

Luke 1:15, regarding John the Baptist, “For he shall be great before the Lord; he shall drink no wine or strong drink, and shall be filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mothers womb”.

Do these verses sound as if Zachary, Elizabeth, and John the Baptist have sinned?

You can readily see that there are many exceptions to the term ‘All have sinned’. Since I have shown there are many exceptions to the word ‘ALL’, why then should anyone not allow one more exception, the Mother of GOD?Are there any exceptions to the word ‘All’?
What about Jesus Christ? Did He in His humanity ever sin?
What about babies and those with a mental retardation who have no reasoning power? Have they sinned? Have children below the age of reason sinned? Have comatose and senile people sinned? As you can see, there are exceptions.

Luke 1:6, regarding Zachary and Elizabeth, the parents of John the Baptist, “Both were just before GOD, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord”.

Luke 1:15, regarding John the Baptist, “For he shall be great before the Lord; he shall drink no wine or strong drink, and shall be filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mothers womb”.

Do these verses sound as if Zachary, Elizabeth, and John the Baptist have sinned?

You can readily see that there are many exceptions to the term ‘All have sinned’. Since I have shown there are many exceptions to the word ‘ALL’, why then should anyone not allow one more exception, the Mother of GOD? CATHLOIC TREASER CHEST

There is INHERENT sin and there is sin committed by the person.

When the Bible says the person is blameless or righteous, it refers to the person himself/herself being blameless before God. It does NOT mean the person does not have inherent sin because that is the very reason why Jesus came to earth to die for our SINS.

For just as one man sinned, so the whole world sinned (through Adam). Everyone has inherent sin and Mary is no exception. The only exception being Jesus who was NOT born of an earthly Father (and thereby does not inherit the sin of man).

Mary has sin in her. NOT because she did not sin, but because ALL have sinned. If Mary could be SINLESS (note: not blameless or righteousness) then there would be NO NEED for Jesus Christ.

Which effectively VOIDS the very purpose of God’s Salvation Plan.

 

[SteveVH]

For just as one man sinned, so the whole world sinned (through Adam). Everyone has inherent sin and Mary is no exception. The only exception being Jesus who was NOT born of an earthly Father (and thereby does not inherit the sin of man).

Mary has sin in her. NOT because she did not sin, but because ALL have sinned. If Mary could be SINLESS (note: not blameless or righteousness) then there would be NO NEED for Jesus Christ.

Which effectively VOIDS the very purpose of God’s Salvation Plan.

First of all, neither Jesus nor any of the rest of us were born of a father, heavenly or otherwise. We were all born of mothers. That’s the point. Mary had to be sinless, both from origin (inherent) sin and personal sin in order to give birth to God Himself. Why do you doubt that God could pull this off if that is what He chose to do? If you understand the doctrine of the immaculate conception you understand, as I said earlier, that Mary’s sinlessness is a result of the merits of her own Son, not her own.

Mary needed Christ, as much as you and I, in order to be born free from sin.

 

[Glico]

Mary had to be sinless, both from origin (inherent) sin and personal sin in order to give birth to God Himself. Why do you doubt that God could pull this off if that is what He chose to do? If you understand the doctrine of the immaculate conception you understand,

.

Firstly, that doctrine of 'immaculate conception" is NOT in the Bible.

Secondly, as already addressed, God is Spirit. And Mary did not give birth to a spirit.

Thirdly, there is no need to doubt or not doubt because there’s no need to assume that it was done that way. We don’t assume and so create an opportunity to create a new non-biblical doctrine. Its pure folly.

**THINK: Why would there even be a need to assume Mary had to be sinless when Jesus was not even born of an earthly father and therefore does not even inherit ANY inherent sin???
**

.

 

[c_martyr]

Are there any exceptions to the word ‘All’?

I suppose that you are referring to Romans 3. “All have sinned.”

When we look at the whole of Scripture, we notice that there is none other than Jesus Christ who is ever described as having no sin. Therefore, by explicit statements of this sort, Jesus Christ is necessarily excluded from the “all.” However, in the Scripture, Mary is never said to be without sin, nor is anyone else, so she and everybody else is necessarily included in the “all.”

Also, a closer look at the text will be most instructive. The actual passage teaches that all have sinned and that there are no exceptions but God himself. The passage sets up the argument by way of comparing the whole of mankind over against God himself.

“All have sinned *and fall short of the glory of God.” *

Now the question that we need to ask is whether or not Jesus Christ is God. If he is, then we can see that the apostle Paul is making a categorical statement concerning the natural human race, those who are decendants of Adam’s* fall.* And in this way, Paul is free to make such an absolute and universal statement as he made, which necessarily includes Mary. Unless of course Mary is God, which I am pretty sure she is not.

By the way - I had a conversation with a Muslim bus-driver who all his life believed that Mary was supposed to be the third member of the Trinity in Christian belief. He rightly traced his error of understanding to the Roman Catholic Church’s *over-emphasis * upon the mother of Jesus. He was shocked to find out that we actually do not believe that!

 

[SteveVH]

.Firstly, that doctrine of 'immaculate conception" is NOT in the Bible.

There are a lot of things that are not in the Bible. So what? The principal of the matter certainly is.

.Secondly, as already addressed, God is Spirit. And Mary did not give birth to a spirit.

What you are implying is heretical. Mary gave birth to the PERSON of Christ; his humanity as well as his divinity. She did not give birth only to his human nature, but his person. That is why the Church gave her the title “mother of God”. It says more about Jesus than it does Mary.

.Thirdly, there is no need to doubt or not doubt because there’s no need to assume that it was done that way. We don’t assume and so create an opportunity to create a new non-biblical doctrine. Its pure folly.

THINK: Why would there even be a need to assume Mary had to be sinless when Jesus was not even born of an earthly father and therefore does not even inherit ANY inherent sin???
.

I’ve already answered this. He wasn’t “born of a father”, he was born of a mother, just like the rest of us. If Mary was born with original sin Jesus would have been also. He couldn’t be, so neither could she.

 

[AmateurPianist]

It seems to me that if this is being put forth as dogma that must be believed, that the burden of proof rests on those putting this forth as dogma as to where God has definitely revealed this as truth.

Until then, I will continue to believe that this is a nice little story, but in the end probably another Christian urban legend.

 

[Glico]

There are a lot of things that are not in the Bible. So what? The principal of the matter certainly is.

So what? It means you are NOT following the Bible. That’s the gist of it. And since you’re not following the Bible, you are not following what the Bible says not to ADD NOR TAKE AWAY from it. And if you bother to read the Bible on what happens to those who ADDs to it, you will find the word “CURSED”. And I’m not saying this of my own view.

What you are implying is heretical. Mary gave birth to the PERSON of Christ; his humanity as well as his divinity. She did not give birth only to his human nature, but his person. That is why the Church gave her the title “mother of God”. It says more about Jesus than it does Mary.

What you are saying is blasphemous. How can God even have a mother??? God is the Alpha & the Omega, the BEGINNING and the END. The Bible says the birth of Jesus was the work of the Holy Spirit. Mary did nothing to cause His conception.

Matthew 1:20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.

I’ve already answered this. He wasn’t “born of a father”, he was born of a mother, just like the rest of us. If Mary was born with original sin Jesus would have been also. He couldn’t be, so neither could she.

I don’t know if you have a father, but I certainly have one. You’ve planted a flawed reply full of loopholes that does not even amount to an answer. How could Jesus have original sin (which is passed from human parents onto their children) when the conception of Jesus is through the Holy Spirit ??? Can you be born without your earthly father? You can try asking your earthly parents this question and see if you receive a slap or a treat to McDonalds.

Matthew 1:18This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit

Jesus had NO earthly father and was conceived through the Holy Ghost. As such He does not inherit ANY inherent sin from humanity. There is therefore NO NEED to even assume that Mary was sinless. And the fact remains that she isn’t.
.

 

[Glico]

so what? It means you are not following the bible. That’s the gist of it. And since you’re not following the bible, you are not following what the bible says not to add nor take away from it. And if you bother to read the bible on what happens to those who adds to it, you will find the word “cursed”. And i’m not saying this of my own view.

what you are saying is blasphemous. How can god even have a mother??? god is the alpha & the omega, the beginning and the end. The bible says the birth of jesus was the work of the holy spirit. Mary did nothing to cause his conception.

matthew 1:20 but after he had considered this, an angel of the lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "joseph son of david, do not be afraid to take mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the holy spirit.

i don’t know if you have a father, but i certainly have one. You’ve planted a flawed reply full of loopholes that does not even amount to an answer. How could jesus have original sin (which is passed from human parents onto their children) when the conception of jesus is through the holy spirit ??? Can you be born without your earthly father? You can try asking your earthly parents this question and see if you receive a slap or a treat to mcdonalds.

matthew 1:18this is how the birth of jesus christ came about: His mother mary was pledged to be married to joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the holy spirit

jesus had no earthly father and was conceived through the holy ghost. As such he does not inherit any inherent sin from humanity. There is therefore no need to even assume that mary was sinless. And the fact remains that she isn’t.
.

**For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. **