Mary did or didn't die?

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I wonder how he knew this 700 years later??? God Bless, Memaw
Unfortuately there is not much before him about the Assumption. However, if we are to believe St. John Damascene then the belief that the apostles saw Mary die, then assumed that she was taken up, bodily, into heaven upon finding her tomb open was around in the 600s/700s. He had obviously heard the story/report about the Council of Chalcedon in 451 from somewhere. From who? When? Unknown.

That is about the Assumption. The belief that Mary died in Jerusalem goes back further, however the sources are shaky and again scant at best.

So, because of the absence of concrete evidence, writings etc. at the time of her Assumption, or even 300-700 years after, it is hard to pin down anything. However, since the Church declared it dogma, in the 1950s, that the Assumption happened, as a Catholic I must believe that it did occur. I know that Mary was a mortal, not divine, and therefore like the rest of us died. So, in relation to the dogma, I can through faith accept that her body, before it had time to become corrupted, was taken into Heaven. It, to my mind, makes more sense that the Apostles saw her die, she was entombed and then when the tomb was opened, probably to collect the bones to be placed in an ossuary, they found it empty. They assumed she was taken up, but probably weren’t totally sure. And a case can be made that their silence about it might have to do with their teachings about Our Lord. Especially, if there were no eye witnesses accounts to her body being taken up to heaven, the claims about such might serve to undermine their credibility while they were trying to preach about the life, death and Resurrection of Our Lord. So perhaps it was not widely talked about…there is no telling when the tradition of the Assumption really took hold.
 
Unfortuately there is not much before him about the Assumption. However, if we are to believe St. John Damascene then the belief that the apostles saw Mary die, then assumed that she was taken up, bodily, into heaven upon finding her tomb open was around in the 600s/700s. He had obviously heard the story/report about the Council of Chalcedon in 451 from somewhere. From who? When? Unknown.

That is about the Assumption. The belief that Mary died in Jerusalem goes back further, however the sources are shaky and again scant at best.

So, because of the absence of concrete evidence, writings etc. at the time of her Assumption, or even 300-700 years after, it is hard to pin down anything. However, since the Church declared it dogma, in the 1950s, that the Assumption happened, as a Catholic I must believe that it did occur. I know that Mary was a mortal, not divine, and therefore like the rest of us died. So, in relation to the dogma, I can through faith accept that her body, before it had time to become corrupted, was taken into Heaven. It, to my mind, makes more sense that the Apostles saw her die, she was entombed and then when the tomb was opened, probably to collect the bones to be placed in an ossuary, they found it empty. They assumed she was taken up, but probably weren’t totally sure. And a case can be made that their silence about it might have to do with their teachings about Our Lord. Especially, if there were no eye witnesses accounts to her body being taken up to heaven, the claims about such might serve to undermine their credibility while they were trying to preach about the life, death and Resurrection of Our Lord. So perhaps it was not widely talked about…there is no telling when the tradition of the Assumption really took hold.
Pius assumption but NOT fact. God Bless, Memaw
 
Pius assumption but NOT fact. God Bless, Memaw
It is pious belief,*** and*** also fact, at least according to St. Pope John Paul II, who speaks of her death as fact:
Nevertheless, Pius XII did not intend to deny the fact of her death, but merely did not judge it opportune to affirm solemnly the death of the Mother of God as a truth to be accepted by all believers.
The important points in this quote to notice are:
  1. He calls the death of the Mother of God a fact.
  2. He states the reason his predecessor did not more strongly insist on her death was merely a question of timing, not fact.
Another point that seems to be missed: That in Munificentissimus Deus, where it says:
having completed the course of her earthly life
That is a euphemism for death. It’s not vague or mysterious. it is Church language for death. Just as the Dormition of the Virgin Mary is a euphemism for her death. Everyone understands that. 🤷
 
It is pious belief,*** and*** also fact, at least according to St. Pope John Paul II, who speaks of her death as fact:

The important points in this quote to notice are:
  1. He calls the death of the Mother of God a fact.
  2. He states the reason his predecessor did not more strongly insist on her death was merely a question of timing, not fact.
Another point that seems to be missed: That in Munificentissimus Deus, where it says:

That is a euphemism for death. It’s not vague or mysterious. it is Church language for death. Just as the Dormition of the Virgin Mary is a euphemism for her death. Everyone understands that. 🤷
Speak for yourself John! Not everyone. We STILL do NOT know for sure!! God Bless, Memaw
 
Anything is possible with God which I believe we are all in agreement with. Indicative by a supernatural birth. In which case I can’t see where a human paradigm of life and death is admissible. This is “other” which we are talking about though a completely human person. A split second we are discussing and defined as “immediately”. Perhaps everyone should ask themselves why the want the answer of Mary to be the one they desire.

I just want to know the absolute truth of body and soul-immediately judged and Assumed into Heaven. Incredible mystery in fact the 4th glorious mystery of the Rosary. More prayer on the topic surely will lead to the truth. 🙂
 
Anything is possible with God which I believe we are all in agreement with. Indicative by a supernatural birth. In which case I can’t see where a human paradigm of life and death is admissible. This is “other” which we are talking about though a completely human person. A split second we are discussing and defined as “immediately”. Perhaps everyone should ask themselves why the want the answer of Mary to be the one they desire.

I just want to know the absolute truth of body and soul-immediately judged and Assumed into Heaven. Incredible mystery in fact the 4th glorious mystery of the Rosary. More prayer on the topic surely will lead to the truth. 🙂
The truth is, it IS a Mystery and we will never know the absolute answer to many, many of God’s Mysteries while we’re on this side of Heaven. Evidently HE didn’t intend us to know. HE’S God, we are not!! TRUST HIM! God Bless, Memaw
 
Speak for yourself John! Not everyone. We STILL do NOT know for sure!! God Bless, Memaw
Sorry to revive a slightly aged thread, but I found something that I felt was worth sharing. For the doubters among us, who have already rejected the statements of Saint John Paul II as well as many earlier saints, ta’ Pinu, and the whole of the Eastern Church, this additional testimony will likely be rejected as well. However, Blessed John Henry Newman DOES have a way of explaining clearly and piously why our beliefs are what they are.

From his Book Discourses to Mixed Congregations: Discourse 18; On the fitness of the Glories of Mary:

Or who can conceive that that virginal frame, which never sinned, was to undergo the death of a sinner? Why should she share the curse of Adam, who had no share in his fall? “Dust thou art, and into dust thou shalt return,” was the sentence upon sin; she then, who was not a sinner, fitly never saw corruption. She died, then, as we hold, because even our Lord and Saviour died; she died, as she suffered, because she was in this world, because she was in a state of things in which suffering and death are the rule. She lived under their external sway; and, as she obeyed Caesar by coming for enrolment to Bethlehem, so did she, when God willed it, yield to the tyranny of death, and was dissolved into soul and body, as well as others. But though she died as well as others, she died not as others die; for, through the merits of her Son, by whom she was what she was, by the grace of Christ which in her had anticipated sin, which had filled her with light, which had purified her flesh from all defilement, she was also saved from disease and malady, and all that weakens and decays the bodily frame. Original sin had not been found in her, by the wear of her senses, and the waste of her frame, and the decrepitude of years, propagating death. She died, but her death was a mere fact, not an effect; and, when it was over, it ceased to be. She died that she might live, she died as a matter of form or (as I may call it) an observance, in order to fulfil, what is called, the debt of nature,—not primarily for herself or because of sin, but to submit herself to her condition, to glorify God, to do what her Son did; not however as her Son and Saviour, with any suffering for any special end; not with a martyr’s death, for her martyrdom had been in living; not as an atonement, for man could not make it, and One had made it, and made it for all; but in order to finish her course, and to receive her crown.

And therefore she died in private. It became Him, who died for the world, to die in the world’s sight; it became the Great Sacrifice to be lifted up on high, as a light that could not be hid. But she, the lily of Eden, who had always dwelt out of the sight of man, fittingly did she die in the garden’s shade, and amid the sweet flowers in which she had lived. Her departure made no noise in the world. The Church went about her common duties, preaching, converting, suffering; there were persecutions, there was fleeing from place to place, there were martyrs, there were triumphs; at length the rumour spread abroad that the Mother of God was no longer upon earth. Pilgrims went to and fro; they sought for her relics, but they found them not; did she die at Ephesus? or did she die at Jerusalem? reports varied; but her tomb could not be pointed out, or if it was found, it was open; and instead of her pure and fragrant body, there was a growth of lilies from the earth which she had touched. So inquirers went home marvelling, and waiting for further light. And then it was said, how that when her dissolution was at hand, and her soul was to pass in triumph before the judgment-seat of her Son, the apostles were suddenly gathered together in the place, even in the Holy City, to bear part in the joyful ceremonial; how that they buried her with fitting rites; how that the third day, when they came to the tomb, they found it empty, and angelic choirs with their glad voices were heard singing day and night the glories of their risen Queen. But, however we feel towards the details of this history (nor is there anything in it which will be unwelcome or difficult to piety), so much cannot be doubted, from the consent of the whole Catholic world and the revelations made to holy souls, that, as is befitting, she is, soul and body, with her Son and God in heaven, and that we are enabled to celebrate, not only her death, but her Assumption.
 
Sorry to revive a slightly aged thread, but I found something that I felt was worth sharing. For the doubters among us, who have already rejected the statements of Saint John Paul II as well as many earlier saints, ta’ Pinu, and the whole of the Eastern Church, this additional testimony will likely be rejected as well. However, Blessed John Henry Newman DOES have a way of explaining clearly and piously why our beliefs are what they are.

From his Book Discourses to Mixed Congregations: Discourse 18; On the fitness of the Glories of Mary:

Or who can conceive that that virginal frame, which never sinned, was to undergo the death of a sinner? Why should she share the curse of Adam, who had no share in his fall? “Dust thou art, and into dust thou shalt return,” was the sentence upon sin; she then, who was not a sinner, fitly never saw corruption. She died, then, as we hold, because even our Lord and Saviour died; she died, as she suffered, because she was in this world, because she was in a state of things in which suffering and death are the rule. She lived under their external sway; and, as she obeyed Caesar by coming for enrolment to Bethlehem, so did she, when God willed it, yield to the tyranny of death, and was dissolved into soul and body, as well as others. But though she died as well as others, she died not as others die; for, through the merits of her Son, by whom she was what she was, by the grace of Christ which in her had anticipated sin, which had filled her with light, which had purified her flesh from all defilement, she was also saved from disease and malady, and all that weakens and decays the bodily frame. Original sin had not been found in her, by the wear of her senses, and the waste of her frame, and the decrepitude of years, propagating death. She died, but her death was a mere fact, not an effect; and, when it was over, it ceased to be. She died that she might live, she died as a matter of form or (as I may call it) an observance, in order to fulfil, what is called, the debt of nature,—not primarily for herself or because of sin, but to submit herself to her condition, to glorify God, to do what her Son did; not however as her Son and Saviour, with any suffering for any special end; not with a martyr’s death, for her martyrdom had been in living; not as an atonement, for man could not make it, and One had made it, and made it for all; but in order to finish her course, and to receive her crown.

And therefore she died in private. It became Him, who died for the world, to die in the world’s sight; it became the Great Sacrifice to be lifted up on high, as a light that could not be hid. But she, the lily of Eden, who had always dwelt out of the sight of man, fittingly did she die in the garden’s shade, and amid the sweet flowers in which she had lived. Her departure made no noise in the world. The Church went about her common duties, preaching, converting, suffering; there were persecutions, there was fleeing from place to place, there were martyrs, there were triumphs; at length the rumour spread abroad that the Mother of God was no longer upon earth. Pilgrims went to and fro; they sought for her relics, but they found them not; did she die at Ephesus? or did she die at Jerusalem? reports varied; but her tomb could not be pointed out, or if it was found, it was open; and instead of her pure and fragrant body, there was a growth of lilies from the earth which she had touched. So inquirers went home marvelling, and waiting for further light. And then it was said, how that when her dissolution was at hand, and her soul was to pass in triumph before the judgment-seat of her Son, the apostles were suddenly gathered together in the place, even in the Holy City, to bear part in the joyful ceremonial; how that they buried her with fitting rites; how that the third day, when they came to the tomb, they found it empty, and angelic choirs with their glad voices were heard singing day and night the glories of their risen Queen. But, however we feel towards the details of this history (nor is there anything in it which will be unwelcome or difficult to piety), so much cannot be doubted, from the consent of the whole Catholic world and the revelations made to holy souls, that, as is befitting, she is, soul and body, with her Son and God in heaven, and that we are enabled to celebrate, not only her death, but her Assumption.
If She “died in Private”, then how does he know all this. God Bless, Memaw
 
If She “died in Private”, then how does he know all this. God Bless, Memaw
By private is meant NOT publicly, like the death of Jesus. IOW, those closest to her would have been there to witness and gather at her death.

This is actually one of the reason St. John Paul II gives as a proof. IF anything out of the ordinary HAD happened, then it would have been IMPOSSIBLE to keep it secret. HOWEVER, if something as natural as death had come to the Virgin Mary, then nothing would need to be said, since that is the most natural thing on earth. So the lack of any story actually confirms that everything happened as would normally be expected.

NO DEVOUT CHRISTIAN in the immediate years after the death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ would imagine anyone being exempted from Death, when even the Son of God died. Not because death was a punishment due to sin, but because it was not human to not die.

How could the Virgin Mary be our mother if she wasn’t human?
 
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