Mary did you know?(offensive to the doctrine of the immaculate conception)

[KaneKatholic]

In my parish, on Christmas Eve, The Midnight mass was initiated with some caroling, (the songs werent traditional so they turned me off a bit anyway) but then it came to one of the worst christmas songs EVER and in my opinion an offense against the immaculate conception. mainly due to the line “This child that you deliver, will soon deliver you”
deliverance hinting toward saving, this child will SOON save you. Mary was not immaculately concieved then and therefore instead of a beautiful song it is an offense to God’s mother, and THEREFORE an offense to God. This should not be played in Catholic churches let alone upon the lips of priests. Mary may not have been a theologian but being created sinless and then being told pointblank that Jesus is “Immanuel = God With US” and the “son of God” She must have knew He was the “great I Am”
so ,in short, we should be careful for things like this… just because it is somewhat about mary it shouldnt be immediatly adopted into catholic culture . Last year it was used in the actual Liturgy …if I remember correctly… but dont quote me on that

 

[thistle]

In my parish, on Christmas Eve, The Midnight mass was initiated with some caroling, (the songs werent traditional so they turned me off a bit anyway) but then it came to one of the worst christmas songs EVER and in my opinion an offense against the immaculate conception. mainly due to the line “This child that you deliver, will soon deliver you”
deliverance hinting toward saving, this child will SOON save you. Mary was not immaculately concieved then and therefore instead of a beautiful song it is an offense to God’s mother, and THEREFORE an offense to God. This should not be played in Catholic churches let alone upon the lips of priest. Mary may not have been a theologian but being created sinless and then being told pointblank that Jesus is “Immanuel = God With US” and the “son of God” She must have knew He was the “great I Am”
so ,in short, we should be careful for things like this… just because it is somewhat about mary it shouldnt be immediatly adopted into catholic culture . Last year it was used in the actual Liturgy …if I remember correctly… but dont quote me on that

Sorry but I don’t understand. The words of the song you quote are talking about Mary at that time, not now.
Second, why do you say Mary was not Immaculately conceived then? The Immaculate Conception has nothing to do with the virgin birth. It means Mary was conceived free from original sin.

 

[anp1215]

In my parish, on Christmas Eve, The Midnight mass was initiated with some caroling, (the songs werent traditional so they turned me off a bit anyway) but then it came to one of the worst christmas songs EVER and in my opinion an offense against the immaculate conception. mainly due to the line “This child that you deliver, will soon deliver you”
deliverance hinting toward saving, this child will SOON save you. Mary was not immaculately concieved then and therefore instead of a beautiful song it is an offense to God’s mother, and THEREFORE an offense to God. This should not be played in Catholic churches let alone upon the lips of priests. Mary may not have been a theologian but being created sinless and then being told pointblank that Jesus is “Immanuel = God With US” and the “son of God” She must have knew He was the “great I Am”
so ,in short, we should be careful for things like this… just because it is somewhat about mary it shouldnt be immediatly adopted into catholic culture . Last year it was used in the actual Liturgy …if I remember correctly… but dont quote me on that

Let me start out with, I am not addressing the appropriateness of this song for Mass, or for before Mass, but rather the accusation that this song is “an offense to God.”

I’ll probably get a lot of flak for saying this, but I don’t think the song is offensive to Our Lady or Our Lord. Even though she was immaculately conceived, she, as a human, rather than a divine being, still needed the deliverance brought about by Our Lord’s death and resurrection. I always liked this explanation offered by The Mary Foundation on one of their CDs: Though Mary was sinless, as a created being, she still needed to be “saved.” Picture a person walking along a path, when all of a sudden, they fall into a pit and are covered in muck and slime. Jesus reaches down and picks them up out of the muck and slime and cleans them off. He saves them. Now picture Mary walking along, heading towards the same pit. Right as she is about to step into it, Jesus reaches down and picks her up before she falls in. Jesus “saved” both, but in different ways.

You also say that Mary must have known that her son was the Great I AM. I do not think we can say for sure. But surely Our Lady’s response to the Archangel Gabriel upon being informed of her impending pregnancy, “But how can this be, since I have no relations with a man?” shows us that she was not omnipotent, and did not fully understand the implications of her Holy Maternity.

These are my thoughts on the matter, God bless!

 

[Marie5890]

In my parish, on Christmas Eve, The Midnight mass was initiated with some caroling, (the songs werent traditional so they turned me off a bit anyway) but then it came to one of the worst christmas songs EVER and in my opinion an offense against the immaculate conception. mainly due to the line “This child that you deliver, will soon deliver you”
deliverance hinting toward saving, this child will SOON save you. Mary was not immaculately concieved then and therefore instead of a beautiful song it is an offense to God’s mother, and THEREFORE an offense to God. This should not be played in Catholic churches let alone upon the lips of priests. Mary may not have been a theologian but being created sinless and then being told pointblank that Jesus is “Immanuel = God With US” and the “son of God” She must have knew He was the “great I Am”
so ,in short, we should be careful for things like this… just because it is somewhat about mary it shouldnt be immediatly adopted into catholic culture . Last year it was used in the actual Liturgy …if I remember correctly… but dont quote me on that

Are you confusing her Immaculate Conception (that she was conceived in her mother’s womb free from the stain of original sin) with the Virgin Birth (Christ’s incarnation in her womb)?

From your post, that is what I gather.

 

[Godfollower]

In my parish, on Christmas Eve, The Midnight mass was initiated with some caroling, (the songs werent traditional so they turned me off a bit anyway) but then it came to one of the worst christmas songs EVER and in my opinion an offense against the immaculate conception. mainly due to the line “This child that you deliver, will soon deliver you”
deliverance hinting toward saving, this child will SOON save you. Mary was not immaculately concieved then and therefore instead of a beautiful song it is an offense to God’s mother, and THEREFORE an offense to God. This should not be played in Catholic churches let alone upon the lips of priests. Mary may not have been a theologian but being created sinless and then being told pointblank that Jesus is “Immanuel = God With US” and the “son of God” She must have knew He was the “great I Am”
so ,in short, we should be careful for things like this… just because it is somewhat about mary it shouldnt be immediatly adopted into catholic culture . Last year it was used in the actual Liturgy …if I remember correctly… but dont quote me on that

{Sigh}.

Okay, let’s review.

~18 B.C. Mary is born.
~4 B.C. Jesus is born.
~29 A.D. Jesus is crucified, dies, and rises, conquering death and delivering all humans (including Mary) from evil. In one very special, specific case, God – who acts outside space and time to begin with – sees to it that Mary is without sin from birth. But the date of her deliverance is the same date as everyone else, because Christ died once, for all (including Mary), on the cross.

Ergo, as of the time Mary is holding her baby boy, it would be accurate to say “He will soon deliver you.” Because, at that point in time, He hasn’t died yet.

 

[anp1215]

{Sigh}.

Okay, let’s review.

~18 B.C. Mary is born.
~4 B.C. Jesus is born.
~29 A.D. Jesus is crucified, dies, and rises, conquering death and delivering all humans (including Mary) from evil. In one very special, specific case, God – who acts outside space and time to begin with – sees to it that Mary is without sin from birth. But the date of her deliverance is the same date as everyone else, because Christ died once, for all (including Mary), on the cross.

Ergo, as of the time Mary is holding her baby boy, it would be accurate to say “He will soon deliver you.” Because, at that point in time, He hasn’t died yet.

Yes, you explain very succinctly what I was trying to get at.

 

[Marie5890]

{Sigh}.

Okay, let’s review.

~18 B.C. Mary is born.
~4 B.C. Jesus is born.
~29 A.D. Jesus is crucified, dies, and rises, conquering death and delivering all humans (including Mary) from evil. In one very special, specific case, God – who acts outside space and time to begin with – sees to it that Mary is without sin from birth. But the date of her deliverance is the same date as everyone else, because Christ died once, for all (including Mary), on the cross.

Ergo, as of the time Mary is holding her baby boy, it would be accurate to say “He will soon deliver you.” Because, at that point in time, He hasn’t died yet.

AHHH!!..Ok.

I understand better now what the OP means…

 

[utah_rose]

It was my understanding when Mary was immaculately conceived, she through an act that only God could perform was also redeemed, so she was redeemed before Jesus died on the Cross.

 

[couponfit]

In my parish, on Christmas Eve, The Midnight mass was initiated with some caroling, (the songs werent traditional so they turned me off a bit anyway) but then it came to one of the worst christmas songs EVER and in my opinion an offense against the immaculate conception. mainly due to the line “This child that you deliver, will soon deliver you”
deliverance hinting toward saving, this child will SOON save you. Mary was not immaculately concieved then and therefore instead of a beautiful song it is an offense to God’s mother, and THEREFORE an offense to God. This should not be played in Catholic churches let alone upon the lips of priests. Mary may not have been a theologian but being created sinless and then being told pointblank that Jesus is “Immanuel = God With US” and the “son of God” She must have knew He was the “great I Am”
so ,in short, we should be careful for things like this… just because it is somewhat about mary it shouldnt be immediatly adopted into catholic culture . Last year it was used in the actual Liturgy …if I remember correctly… but dont quote me on that

I do not write this regarding your choir policy, or it’s direction. That is really a matter up to your church. However, Mary was redeemed by Christ! And she is the Theotokus. And she is born Immaculate, free from original sin! Yes, all three are independently correct and cumulatively correct to say. It is not against Catholic doctrine to say all three.

Speak the Hail Mary again and think of the words! “Hail Mary Full of Grace…” and “Holy Mary Mother of God…”. Two statements of faith, two views yet both correct!

So let me use this description to help explain how Mary was both born immaculate and yet redeemed by Christ! First Christ was the word incarnate, he merely brought forward news of revelation regarding our Salvation. Second, Christ is eternal as is God, and eternal mean non-linear (that Christ’s death on the Cross allowed him to have saved Mary before her birth). Imagine, Adam left a hole, a ditch if you would, through which all mankind is stained at conception by his deed. Yet Adam is not to blame for our sin in itself. So when I was born I fell into that hole and even though Christ saved me, I still bear the stain of having been in the hole. But with Mary, she indeed never fell in the hole. Yet, she did need to be saved! How? Because Christ saved her through the power of the Holy spirit, pulling her back before she fell into the hole, prevent that stain in itself. The redemption occurred, but before the stain.

 

[Godfollower]

It was my understanding when Mary was immaculately conceived, she through an act that only God could perform was also redeemed, so she was redeemed before Jesus died on the Cross.

There was only one act by which all were redeemed, and that was Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross.

But God is outside time and space, and He is able to use Jesus’ sacrifice to preserve Mary from original sin, even though she was born before Jesus’ sacrifice. It was not a separate salvation.

 

[LoyalViews]

Sung at Mass? Eww.

 

[Chiltepin]

I heard this sung at a Christmas Mass a few years ago and the whole time I was just screaming inside my head “YES, SHE KNEW!” (and in some cases, “YES, AN ANGEL TOLD HER!”) I find the song pretty irritating for the reasons you have mentioned.

OK, admittedly I don’t know all of the lyrics and it is possible Mary didn’t know the answer to ALL of the questions. I just don’t care for the song. I have found that if I imagine a small child of questioning age, sitting in her lap, asking Mother Mary all of these questions, it seems sort of innocent.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

There was only one act by which all were redeemed, and that was Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross.

But God is outside time and space, and He is able to use Jesus’ sacrifice to preserve Mary from original sin, even though she was born before Jesus’ sacrifice. It was not a separate salvation.

I think you’ve summed this up as well as I’ve ever seen in three sentences!

Yes, the mystery of the Immaculate Conception, conceptually tied to the birth and death of our Lord. Indeed, that the plan of salvation was to be realized was first revealed with the Immaculate Conception. It was this reasoning that provided foundation for the doctrine.

Not commenting on the hymn / music selection (knowing that’s a “popular” subject these days), but the author of the lyrics took on a very challenging theological construct and attempted to set to prose what is truly difficult to explain in words.

Perhaps next year we can stick with Silent Night …

 

[LittleSoldier]

There was only one act by which all were redeemed, and that was Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross.

But God is outside time and space, and He is able to use Jesus’ sacrifice to preserve Mary from original sin, even though she was born before Jesus’ sacrifice. It was not a separate salvation.

I do believe you are correct.

 

[followingtheway]

Jesus “delivering” Mary is not against the “Immaculate Conception” doctrine. In fact, Mary did say “she rejoiced in her savior” Many Protestants try to say she sinned, so she needed a savior but that isn’t the case.

If a guy falls into a hole and Jesus comes and take him out, Jesus is his savior.
If Mary is about to fall into a hole and Jesus stops her from even going near it, He’s still her savior!

So Jesus saving/delivery Mary corresponds to Immaculate Conception doctrine rather contradicting it.

 

[LittleSoldier]

{Sigh}.

Okay, let’s review.

~18 B.C. Mary is born.
~4 B.C. Jesus is born.
~29 A.D. Jesus is crucified, dies, and rises, conquering death and delivering all humans (including Mary) from evil. In one very special, specific case, God – who acts outside space and time to begin with – sees to it that Mary is without sin from birth. But the date of her deliverance is the same date as everyone else, because Christ died once, for all (including Mary), on the cross.

Ergo, as of the time Mary is holding her baby boy, it would be accurate to say “He will soon deliver you.” Because, at that point in time, He hasn’t died yet.

Please understand that the OP was written in a way which was very confusing. I couldn’t understand it either. It certainly appeared that you were saying that Mary was not immaculately conceived. It appears you were frustrated by an inability to understand (as is implied by your “{sigh}”). But the confusion was because of the way you worded the OP - not through the fault of any poster who responded.

 

[CatholicZ09]

This song was sung at my parish’s Midnight Mass during the carol service before, and then it was sung after Communion on January 1, the Solemnity of Mary, the Holy Mother of God. It’s not my favorite Christmas song, but I think the premise is a little silly. Of course Mary knew; she wasn’t dumb. She knew her Son would do great things in His lifetime, so I don’t understand the concept.

 

[Benadam]

Well, only she could know the Incarnation. She wasn’t able to make it real to any one. Only heaven could reveal the Incarnation. In that sense, only Mary knew.

 

[promethius]

This song was sung at my parish’s Midnight Mass during the carol service before, and then it was sung after Communion on January 1, the Solemnity of Mary, the Holy Mother of God. It’s not my favorite Christmas song, but I think the premise is a little silly. Of course Mary knew; she wasn’t dumb. She knew her Son would do great things in His lifetime, so I don’t understand the concept.

I personally disfavor the song because I think it sounds hokey, but as regards your point (which I am responding to you and to others on this subject), it’s a type of hyperbolic speech… the questions aren’t meant to portray ignorance on the part of Mary, but rather as rhetorical constructs to highlight the immensity of the Incarnation… and there’s always the other sense of “know” which is more than just knowledge and includes comprehension, and the song asks if she (and by extension, we) understand some pretty magnificent things.

 

[roadsend]

Going to Midnight Mass and listening to pop-slop songs is like opening a box labeled as fine chocolates and finding gravel.


Throwing heresy into the mix just compounds it.