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thistle
Guest
Where is the OP??
Mary did you know?(offensive to the doctrine of the immaculate conception)
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roadsend
Guest
“This child that you deliver, will soon deliver you”
Mary was conceived without sin.
She had already been “delivered” by God from original sin prior to the birth of her Child.
Mary was conceived without sin.
She had already been “delivered” by God from original sin prior to the birth of her Child.
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roadsend
Guest
The “will soon” indicates that she had not yet been redeemed from original sin.
Catholics hold that she was free from original sin from the moment of her conception.
Catholics hold that she was free from original sin from the moment of her conception.
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NewEnglandPriest
Guest
I think we can sometimes read too much into things. On the surface it just looks like a little creative word play…
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Ubenedictus
Guest
But it implys that she is yet to be redeemed. The word soon is talking about what has not yet happened. U may say the sacrifice is yet to happen, but it is another to imply that mary redemption is yet to be effected.
This song is really unclear and sends the wrong message, ‘will soon deliver you’? that deliverance had already been applied so i really don’t like the ‘soon’. She has been delivered by her son so why all those words. St paul actually said christ sacrife ‘held Gods hands’ during the old time (can’t remember the exact passage) it will sound unclear to say christ will soon___. But it cant be ‘soon’ cos it has already happened she is saved, christ has ‘held Gods hand’. The sacrife trancends time.
We can argue this all day but the song does send the wrong message, i don’t really know what the person who composed it had in mind.
Ubenedictus
This song is really unclear and sends the wrong message, ‘will soon deliver you’? that deliverance had already been applied so i really don’t like the ‘soon’. She has been delivered by her son so why all those words. St paul actually said christ sacrife ‘held Gods hands’ during the old time (can’t remember the exact passage) it will sound unclear to say christ will soon___. But it cant be ‘soon’ cos it has already happened she is saved, christ has ‘held Gods hand’. The sacrife trancends time.
We can argue this all day but the song does send the wrong message, i don’t really know what the person who composed it had in mind.
Ubenedictus
If some things that I have heard (outside of CAF) are true then the composer of this song does not believe in the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.
But even if that is the case…
I find it interesting that his “creative word play” is not actually incompatible with Catholic teaching …in spite the composer’s attempt to “prove” why that teaching is not possible. In fact this is one of several misunderstandings that come about because our language reflects our linear view of time. It seems to me that a number of protestant fallacies are time related.
In the case of the song, Jesus would soon do that which he had already accomplished. …Kind of like if I had a time machine and next year I will travel back to 1936 and give my mother a shot of penicillin to save her from her life threatening appendicitis. I will soon save my mother …many, many years ago.
Protestants find the Catholic understanding about the Mass being the sacrifice of Calvary troubling for “time related” reasons too. It seems to me that many of our more fundamentalist brethren want to limit God to linear time.
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Actually one of the things I like about science fiction is that using stories from it make some Catholic Truths easier to explain.
But even if that is the case…
I find it interesting that his “creative word play” is not actually incompatible with Catholic teaching …in spite the composer’s attempt to “prove” why that teaching is not possible. In fact this is one of several misunderstandings that come about because our language reflects our linear view of time. It seems to me that a number of protestant fallacies are time related.
In the case of the song, Jesus would soon do that which he had already accomplished. …Kind of like if I had a time machine and next year I will travel back to 1936 and give my mother a shot of penicillin to save her from her life threatening appendicitis. I will soon save my mother …many, many years ago.
Protestants find the Catholic understanding about the Mass being the sacrifice of Calvary troubling for “time related” reasons too. It seems to me that many of our more fundamentalist brethren want to limit God to linear time.
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Actually one of the things I like about science fiction is that using stories from it make some Catholic Truths easier to explain.
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DeaconsSon87
Guest
If (and that is a huge IF) it’s ever suggested should I ever become a parish music director, I will INSIST that lyric be changed.
“The child that you deliver, He has delivered you” is MUCH more compatible with Church teaching.
“The child that you deliver, He has delivered you” is MUCH more compatible with Church teaching.
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LoyalViews
Guest
Yes! It’s annoying isn’t it!
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ByzCathCantor
Guest
Bravo!
FWIW - many wonder, even Eastern Catholics themselves, why hymnody used during the Divine Liturgy in the Eastern Churches in strictly limited to those which are scripturally based (and are largely taken from the Psalms). This is especially true for Communion hymns. It is precisely for this reason, so that “poetic license” (reserved for non-liturgical lyricism) does not potentially conflict with doctrinal message.
Peace!
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Godfollower
Guest
To repeat from earlier in the thread:
The verb in question is “deliver” – and that act (the deliverance) occurred on Easter Sunday in something like 29 A.D. That’s AFTER the Incarnation and Nativity. But (in God’s eyes) it will “soon” happen (that is, ~33 years later).
You may not like that reasoning, but it is clearly a plausible interpretation. Which means that it isn’t blasphemous.
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Sarabande
Guest
Here is an example of when it really isn’t up to the music director or musicians what music is chosen for liturgy.
I was hired as part of a vocal quartet for Christmas Eve Masses and Lessons and Carols this past year. The music was mostly very beautiful, but I and a soprano were asked to sing a duet setting of “Mary Did You Know” for one of the Christmas Eve masses. The director told me that she did not like the piece, especially for mass, but it was requested by the pastor due to the fact that prior to her acquiring this position and prior to the pastor coming there, it was a “tradition” for years and the congregation LOVED it. There was apparently an uproar the first year when they didn’t do it. She could not say no.
I was hired as part of a vocal quartet for Christmas Eve Masses and Lessons and Carols this past year. The music was mostly very beautiful, but I and a soprano were asked to sing a duet setting of “Mary Did You Know” for one of the Christmas Eve masses. The director told me that she did not like the piece, especially for mass, but it was requested by the pastor due to the fact that prior to her acquiring this position and prior to the pastor coming there, it was a “tradition” for years and the congregation LOVED it. There was apparently an uproar the first year when they didn’t do it. She could not say no.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Our song book (for hymns before and after Divine Liturgy and also during Communion) contains many hymns that are not scripturally based. But of course, they are all theologically sound.
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Safia
Guest
Oh, man, this is one of my favorite Christmas songs . . . 
The Kathy Mattea version I love.
Anyways, yes, I am also of the crowd that doesn’t find this blasphemous whatsoever.
The Kathy Mattea version I love.
Anyways, yes, I am also of the crowd that doesn’t find this blasphemous whatsoever.
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ByzCathCantor
Guest
As does ours, but only certain ones are appropriate for use as Communion hymns. Feel free to PM me if you have any specific questions.
I would only caution that not all spiritual hymns from our tradition are “firmly rooted in theology”. One of the most treasured Rusyn Christmas hymns (Koledy), Koli Jasna Zvizda, tells a story of the Infant Jesus, born just an hour before, telling His Mother to rest for an hour while he journeys back to Heaven to fetch her a blanket.
Not exactly what you might think of immediately even for para-liturgical use (before or after DL). Yet, just before this past Christmas, our cousins from the Old Country actually used this hymn before a DL held in Rome while on pilgrimage to the church where Blessed Theodore Romzha was ordained 75 years ago. The Cathedral Choir from Mukachevo, however, made it sound majestic (it’s right at the beginning of the video)!
youtube.com/watch?v=hCDqi2LZTPg&context=C329ae09ADOEgsToPDskLqKtaycd4h3V4bhbNgsLM6
Enjoy!
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dochawk
Guest
exactly.
Reading blaspheming into this valid, wretched song isn’t called for. The notions are curious and harmless, but the song would be painful in any event . . .
hawk
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dochawk
Guest
There is actually a tiny genre of Christian Science Fiction. Christian Fantasy is far more common, but ther are a few examples. Weeping May Tarry by Del Rey has aliens finding a bombed out Earth and discovering a Church and translating Scripture bit by bit–a fascinating look at Christianity from the outside looking in, with no cultural reference..
There is a short story I read years ago (possibly also Del Rey), in which an exploratory ship finds a planet just after the Resurrection, and goes seeking from planet to planet trying to be there “on time”
hawk
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KaneKatholic
Guest
yeah “blasphemous” because it is an offense to the purity of the Mother of God, and thus an offense to God. For example , If I implied that your mother was a Streetwalker, you would be deeply offended even though I didnt call you that. I offended your mother, so its the same, mary was preserved by the sacrifice of Christ which would happen later in time YES, but many of you miss the point that little things carry great power, If we lax up on little things like this we will wake up to a world lost. and “SOON” implies something will happen later in time. The song is also bluntly speaking a lie and pretending a reality thats not God’s will… That Mary wasn’t pure fully when she bore Our Lord(BEFORE DURING AND AFTER), … not just any womb could suffice He made a sinless Living vessel to store the Living word of God, and thus The Living God (JOHN 1!). Its not direct blasphemy like the “Jesus Shaves” T- Shirts but it still remains, and Honestly, we need not be over sensitive but watchful of even the slightest thing before we adopt it… Just because it is a modern ‘christian’ song which mentions mary. (and I use that term lightly because a follower of Christ wouldnt offend His mother) . It may not be a big threat or anything spiritually dangerous but that dosent make it good. [And this may be extreme but it carelessly implies that Mary simply dosent remember WHAT AN ANGEL TOLD HER! 
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I prefer even the slowest Ave chant over this spiritual and theological mess-up!
Mary did know to some extent, and for it to be sung at mass is a shame,(but at least its not a clown mass! …)
]I prefer even the slowest Ave chant over this spiritual and theological mess-up!
Mary did know to some extent, and for it to be sung at mass is a shame,(but at least its not a clown mass! …)
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Ours are clearly marked by section. One section is “Hymns before Liturgy”, another is “Hymns during Communion”, etc. So we know that all hymns in that section is appropriate for what the section is for.
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MissBorgia
Guest
well said. !
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dochawk
Guest
Ooooh . . . . .
How about a section for, “songs never to be sung in a liturgical setting. . . .”
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