"Mary, Did You Know?" -- theologically correct?

[MonFrere]

I appreciate your responses.I think it’s OK for a conversation to take a turn. There is an argument for different levels of music. There are compositions that are musically superior to others. You only have to open a Catholic hymnal to figure that out. There’s no accounting for taste though. Or what may move one person emotionally.Music goes beyond the intellectual & academic.

Good points Cracker Mom (enjoyed your comment about hymnals to agree with my claim).

Yes - I think once a person make the personal judgment I LIKE THIS SONG the ability to approach the song critically becomes almost impossible when someone becomes critical. Almost like when, you as a parent know your child’s weaknesses, but if a neighbor comes at you and tells you of your child’s weaknesses – *that’s a different kettle of fish. * Virtually all of the comments on this thread that included the statement - I LOVE THIS SONG - was in disagreement with my point.

I think your comment

Or what may move one person emotionally. Music goes beyond the intellectual & academic

tells me that once the emotional get entangled in the opinion; the ability for the intellectual and the academic to function fully and accurately is greatly weakened. I think it’s part of the result of the fall where our ability to think became damaged.

MonFrere

 

[Cracker_Mom]

Good points Cracker Mom (enjoyed your comment about hymnals to agree with my claim).

Yes - I think once a person make the personal judgment I LIKE THIS SONG the ability to approach the song critically becomes almost impossible when someone becomes critical. Almost like when, you as a parent know your child’s weaknesses, but if a neighbor comes at you and tells you of your child’s weaknesses – *that’s a different kettle of fish. * Virtually all of the comments on this thread that included the statement - I LOVE THIS SONG - was in disagreement with my point.

I think your comment

tells me that once the emotional get entangled in the opinion; the ability for the intellectual and the academic to function fully and accurately is greatly weakened. I think it’s part of the result of the fall where our ability to think became damaged.

MonFrere

I agree. Most of us,me included, have little formal music training. It’s pointless to argue with what folks like,I have to shake my head when friends earnestly tell me “The Lord of the Dance” is their favorite hymn…
But, I’m only partially a music snob. I also meant to say that there is something about music that transcends the academic.Not just the emotional, but mystical, too-if that makes sense.
Some of the most moving music I’ve heard has been performed by the un-lettered-or at least un-degreed.(And it wasn’t “Mary Did You Know.”)

 

[MonFrere]

But, I’m only partially a music snob. I also meant to say that there is something about music that transcends the academic.Not just the emotional, but mystical, too-if that makes sense.

If you are inclined to enjoy chant and want something that (to me) strongly points to the “mystical” I heartily recommend you get a CD of chants by St. Hildegard of Bingen. After hearing her lyrically soaring chants I began to pray to her for inspiration in my compositional endeavors. St. Hildegard was truly a mystic and I think it is clearly heard in her chants.

Some of the most moving music I’ve heard has been performed by the un-lettered-or at least un-degreed.(And it wasn’t “Mary Did You Know.”)

I can fully understand your comment. There are many times I can agree with the general consensus of people – but fortunately/unfortunately there are also times when I shake my head - just like you when someone tells you that “The Lord of the Dance” is their favorite hymn. That’s worse than drinking the Kool-Aid … they are going direct IV!!

Do look into the chants of St. Hildegard …

amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ssc_2_8?url=search-alias%3Dpopular&field-keywords=st.+hildegard+of+bingen&sprefix=St.+Hild

the above link gives you some choices. I personally own Voices of Angels and it’s one of my favorite of all time CD’s.

MonFrere

 

[Cracker_Mom]

If you are inclined to enjoy chant and want something that (to me) strongly points to the “mystical” I heartily recommend you get a CD of chants by St. Hildegard of Bingen. After hearing her lyrically soaring chants I began to pray to her for inspiration in my compositional endeavors. St. Hildegard was truly a mystic and I think it is clearly heard in her chants.

I can fully understand your comment. There are many times I can agree with the general consensus of people – but fortunately/unfortunately there are also times when I shake my head - just like you when someone tells you that “The Lord of the Dance” is their favorite hymn. That’s worse than drinking the Kool-Aid … they are going direct IV!!

Do look into the chants of St. Hildegard …

amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ssc_2_8?url=search-alias%3Dpopular&field-keywords=st.+hildegard+of+bingen&sprefix=St.+Hild

the above link gives you some choices. I personally own Voices of Angels and it’s one of my favorite of all time CD’s.

MonFrere

Thanks! Will check it out.
There was a funny CAF thread some time ago re.votes for the worst hymn selections offered at Mass.It was enjoyable to read but the powers that be pulled the switch for snarkyness or lack of charity, or something.
(I personally think the composers of those '70’s hymns moonlighted as Hallmark greeting card poets.)

 

[Joe_5859]

Yes - I think once a person make the personal judgment I LIKE THIS SONG the ability to approach the song critically becomes almost impossible when someone becomes critical.

Just to point out, the same thing can also be said for those who make the personal judgment I DISLIKE THIS SONG. If a song grates on me, it certainly makes it much harder to think there might be some redeeming element to it.

 

[Brendan]

i love this song! i’m amazed that people question its correctness. Mary was born without original sin so that the Lord would have an appropriate first home on earth, without His death on the cross, she, like all of mankind, would not have been ‘delivered’ to heaven as the gates were closed

peace of Christ!

But was Mary delivered BEFORE Christ was born, or afterward. Only one of those two could be true. Which one do you belive happened?

 

[pnewton]

But was Mary delivered BEFORE Christ was born, or afterward. Only one of those two could be true. Which one do you belive happened?

Both can be true, just like our predestination and our free will. Since God is not bound by time, he can apply the results of grace to occur in the future, to an event in the past.

 

[MonFrere]

Just to point out, the same thing can also be said for those who make the personal judgment I DISLIKE THIS SONG. If a song grates on me, it certainly makes it much harder to think there might be some redeeming element to it.

To go further OFF TOPIC on this topic which has already gone OFF TOPIC …

I find it a very “catholic” trait to keep the ability to see how far one can go with an idea and to set clearly defined boundaries where truth turns to falsehood. Applying this to music one can see the merits of a piece but also see its limitations. So, I’m sort of stuck in the middle on this composition. For the classical purists (which fits my training) I still see that there is some merit in this piece — but for those who are mostly acquainted with popular music, they think I’m a curmudgeon and a killjoy for not being “inspired” by this piece. I guess I could be classified as a flaming moderate – that very unfortunate figure who looks like he has no convictions but actually is not one easily pulled by extremes.

So – I love you all (sort of) MonFrere

 

[Brendan]

Both can be true, just like our predestination and our free will. Since God is not bound by time, he can apply the results of grace to occur in the future, to an event in the past.

Yes, but we are not talking about when the Graces origniated, but WHEN, temporally, did God apply to Graces to Mary, was it before or after the Nativity?

What, EXACTLY, it terms of redemption, was not already applied to Mary at the time of her Conception? I would like to hear what you have to say on that please.

 

[phrederik]

But was Mary delivered BEFORE Christ was born, or afterward. Only one of those two could be true. Which one do you belive happened?

God’s plan was for mary to be delivered after Jesus’ birth, the result of His crucifiction.

this question caused me read the catechism and better understand the immaculate conception, in so far as God’s grace enabled mary to lead a sinless life, not only to be free of original sin. yet even with this greater understanding i still fail to see why the line is incorrect. i do not read anything that takes away from mary, or adds anything inappropriate. there were many posts to read and maybe i missed it, but i’d appriciate reading why it is incorrect, rather than reading opinions from those who think so and mearly stating that it is incorrect. how is it theologically incorrect to say that Jesus delivered mary? she was an integral part of God’s plan and received graces to perform her part, but among Jesus’ many roles was the opening of heaven’s gate, thru which we all, mary included, enter heaven

peace of Christ!

 

[pnewton]

Yes, but we are not talking about when the Graces origniated, but WHEN, temporally, did God apply to Graces to Mary, was it before or after the Nativity?

I do not think the question makes sense from God’s point of view. I think this is one thing that the line from the song brings out. From the point of view of Jesus, the action that would deliver Mary was still in the future. He is delivered first of Mary, then he delivers Mankind.

 

[Brendan]

how is it theologically incorrect to say that Jesus delivered mary? !

Christ certainly DID deliver Mary, but He did so at the time of her conception.

 

[Brendan]

I. From the point of view of Jesus, the action that would deliver Mary was still in the future. He is delivered first of Mary, then he delivers Mankind.

No, Jesus is God, to Him there is no future, only the eternal ‘now’.

And in that enternal ‘now’ he delivered Mary at the time of her conception. He entered into time at the Annunciation, at which point, temporally, Mary had already been delivered.

There was no point in Mary’s life, that she was in need of deliverance. It had already been accomplished.

 

[pnewton]

No, Jesus is God, to Him there is no future, only the eternal ‘now’.

LOL. I think you know what I meant. Jesus** when he was Earth** (the topic, if remember) was bound by the same temporal restraints as all. His life did not flash around like an episode of Quantum Leap. As Paul put it in Philipians, He emptied himself and became like man. That is why in the Bible we have the birth of Jesus first, then His ministry, then His death, and finally, his resurrection.

Furthermore, in view of the song, even though Jesus existed in all eternity before and after the incarmation, Mary, to whom the song is addressed, did not.

Let me also add that of course she knew that he was to be the deliverer of all mankind. We may debate how much she knew and understood, but that part was told her point blank by Gabriel.

 

[phrederik]

Christ certainly DID deliver Mary, but He did so at the time of her conception.

and you base this on what? the immaculate conception provided mary with the graces she required to be born free of and remain free of sin. the catechism, 492, says “she is redeemed, in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son.” the theological definition of redeem is “to deliver from sin and its consequences by means of a sacrifice offered for the sinner.” [dictionary.com] while on earth Jesus lived in time, the redemption, or deliverence, didn’t occur until the crucifiction, the sacrifice. God’s plan takes place within the flow of time and mary’s deliverance didn’t occur until the crucifiction.

peace of Christ!