"Mary, Did You Know?" -- theologically correct?

[Cracker_Mom]

Sorry, but I have to respond, because that statement is just plain wrong. The song actually says nothing about Mary. It says a lot about the curiosity of the point of view of the song-writer. It says, “Mary, did you know,” not "Mary, you didn’t know, so I have to tell you.

Full disclosure: this song falls into the Southern Gospel genre. I love Southern Gospel, in part because I grew up in it, but I can’t think of a single SG song that I would want to include in the Mass. That said, there is a lot of love for God and Jesus expressed in the SG repertoire. If you don’t like SG in general, and “Mary, Did You Know?” in particular, nobody is holding a gun to your head and making you listen to it. But one should not criticize what one does not understand.

DaveBj

I love Southern Gospel, too & have to admit that I really prefer many of the great old gospel hymns to the majority of the choices we have in Catholic hymnals these days.Sure, gospel doesn’t always reflect orthodox Catholic doctrine but does “Ashes”?
My son actually just performed some gospel & bluegrass Christmas music at the local Baptist church for a food pantry fundraiser.“Beautiful Star of Bethlehem” is just lovely to hear.

 

[Linda_Marie]

Sorry, but I have to respond, because that statement is just plain wrong. The song actually says nothing about Mary. It says a lot about the curiosity of the point of view of the song-writer. It says, “Mary, did you know,” not "Mary, you didn’t know, so I have to tell you.

Full disclosure: this song falls into the Southern Gospel genre. I love Southern Gospel, in part because I grew up in it, but I can’t think of a single SG song that I would want to include in the Mass. That said, there is a lot of love for God and Jesus expressed in the SG repertoire. If you don’t like SG in general, and “Mary, Did You Know?” in particular, nobody is holding a gun to your head and making you listen to it. But one should not criticize what one does not understand.

DaveBj

I disagree. Just asking ‘Mary, did you know?’ starts out assuming she didn’t, because it goes on to tell her. IMHO, the song is about Mary and about her being clueless about her own faith, about being pregnant as a virgin, about being visited by angels, about Elizabeth calling her the Mother of God, about prophets declaring her Son to be the Salvation of the World and about just Who her Son is. It goes on repeating the ‘Mary, did you know…?’ all through the song, reiterating the writer’s opinion that Mary didn’t know a thing. There are more bible passages that show she could not have been clueless, but the ones I chose just dealt with His birth and infancy.

I was not critiqueing this song musically, just theologically. In fact, I don’t think I’ve ever even heard it. My only knowledge of this song is the lyrics. The OP question was are these lyrics are theologically correct. IMO, they are not and in addition, they are a condescending put-down of Mary.

Being a put-down of Mary, I find the lyrics offensive and I would not listen to this song by choice, even if the music is pleasing to the ear. I would not buy it nor listen to it at home as a Christmas song.

I was not criticizing Southern Gospel music at all; just the lyrics of this one song. Please forgive me for having offended you.

 

[pnewton]

I’m sorry but I do not agree here. …but to believe that this is just “my opinion vs your opinion” is wrongheaded.

MonFrere

Of course you disagree. Many people here think their opinion is “right”. You are not alone, but I will not be numbered among such people.

 

[MariaG]

I disagree. Just asking ‘Mary, did you know?’ starts out assuming she didn’t, because it goes on to tell her. IMHO, the song is about Mary and about her being clueless about her own faith, about being pregnant as a virgin, about being visited by angels, about Elizabeth calling her the Mother of God, about prophets declaring her Son to be the Salvation of the World and about just Who her Son is. It goes on repeating the ‘Mary, did you know…?’ all through the song, reiterating the writer’s opinion that Mary didn’t know a thing. There are more bible passages that show she could not have been clueless, but the ones I chose just dealt with His birth and infancy.

I was not critiqueing this song musically, just theologically. In fact, I don’t think I’ve ever even heard it. My only knowledge of this song is the lyrics. The OP question was are these lyrics are theologically correct. IMO, they are not and in addition, they are a condescending put-down of Mary.

Being a put-down of Mary, I find the lyrics offensive and I would not listen to this song by choice, even if the music is pleasing to the ear. I would not buy it nor listen to it at home as a Christmas song.

I was not criticizing Southern Gospel music at all; just the lyrics of this one song. Please forgive me for having offended you.

So you think Mary had foreknowledge not just that her Son was special, but that He would save the world? be crucified? heal the blind? Know of all the great things He would do, specifically as the song asks, before they happened?

 

[MonFrere]

Of course you disagree. Many people here think their opinion is “right”. You are not alone, but I will not be numbered among such people.

Yes, In some things I KNOW my opinion is right.

Gorecki’s Totus Tuus is absolutely without question musically superior to Mary Don’t You Know. This would be the almost universal consent among the musically educated.

When a parent comes to me and wants my honest opinion as to their child’s musical potential I can give a pretty accurate assessment in most all cases.

Now – you are in law enforcement (I think). I’m sure your opinion is going to be much much better than mine in virtually any area of law enforcement. You could give me excellent advise as to which areas of town to avoid. I would be stupid to say – That’s just your opinion.

There are areas that I know more than you do. And most certainly there are areas where you know more than I do. Our opinions are not equal. When you would speak in areas of law enforcement I would think everyone would defer to your opinion. Since I’m a musician/educator I think I’m due the same deferment.

MonFrere

 

[MonFrere]

So you think Mary had foreknowledge not just that her Son was special, but that He would save the world? be crucified? heal the blind? Know of all the great things He would do, specifically as the song asks, before they happened?

I often argue for “poetic license”. But when we speaking about the Mother of God I think that respect for her is in order in the use of “poetic license”. The song can easily be read as one preaching to the Blessed Mother. It’s the way I was struck by the lyric, as well as Linda. I think another poster had the same feeling. So, I think that’s an indication that this is not just some isolated fancy. Because of this rather commonly perceived view, I think that this song is in poor taste. I do not think any Catholic that’s been well catechized in the faith would present a lyric in the manner of this song. The lyric would be presented with more the honor Mary is always due.

MonFrere

 

[pnewton]

Yes, In some things I KNOW my opinion is right.

Gorecki’s Totus Tuus is absolutely without question musically superior to Mary Don’t You Know. This would be the almost universal consent among the musically educated.

When a parent comes to me and wants my honest opinion as to their child’s musical potential I can give a pretty accurate assessment in most all cases.

Yes, I can accept a value of opinion on such things as the last one. As to the rest, I guess we will have to part in disagreement. If all else fails, one can simply choose to not listen to what one thinks is inferior music.

 

[elts1956]

I absolutely love this song. I just haven’t picked it apart so I can’t enjoy it. As for as music at Mass I’ll take Gregorian chant any day.

 

[elts1956]

I often argue for “poetic license”. But when we speaking about the Mother of God I think that respect for her is in order in the use of “poetic license”. The song can easily be read as one preaching to the Blessed Mother. It’s the way I was struck by the lyric, as well as Linda. I think another poster had the same feeling. So, I think that’s an indication that this is not just some isolated fancy. Because of this rather commonly perceived view, I think that this song is in poor taste. I do not think any Catholic that’s been well catechized in the faith would present a lyric in the manner of this song. The lyric would be presented with more the honor Mary is always due.

MonFrere

Since this is not a Catholic nation, but a Christian/Catholic nation, I think, as one poster said, we must accept the fact that many,many folks do not give Mary Our Mother her due. In fact many other Christian denominations ignore her completely. If we don’t like the song, think it is unacceptable then we have the choice of not listening. Personnaly I think the focus on Chirst is inspiring.

 

[Linda_Marie]

So you think Mary had foreknowledge not just that her Son was special, but that He would save the world? be crucified? heal the blind? Know of all the great things He would do, specifically as the song asks, before they happened?

“Oh yeah, well did she know xyz?” Anything to make her less than us, because we know xyz and she didn’t, with the emphasis on the ‘she didn’t’. “Hah! so there. Take that, Mary. So much for you, you didn’t understand anything about the Christ because you were just a stupid peasant incubator.” That’s what I hear with these lyrics.

Rather than having foreknowledge, Mary would have known everything that is prophecied in Scripture about the Messiah. According to tradition (small t), she was raised in the Temple until of marriageable age. She was taught the Jewish faith in depth from her earliest years. She knew the Jewish prophecies concerning the Messiah and they talk about making the lame walk and the blind see and being the salvation of the World. In addition, Simeon tells her that her Son is the Salvation of the World, that He is the long-awaited Messiah. Again, being very familiar with Jewish Scriptures, she would have understood what that meant which is why she pondered all these things in her heart.

All of this just explains why I dislike the song, lyrically. I have no comment on the music.

It is this bit ‘the child you delivered would soon deliver you’ which makes this song theologically incorrect. He was her Salvation when she was conceived.

I just stated my opinion that I don’t like this song, I think it is disrespectful to Mary as well as being theologically incorrect and I wouldn’t listen to it by choice myself. I’m not telling anyone else not to listen to it. Go ahead. No one is trying to stop you.

 

[tjm190]

I’m a convert,like the song, but my sponsor…not so much. She belives Mary already knew everything to come.

‘Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, seeing I am a virgin?’

Seems interesting, given she demonstrates confusion above.

 

[MariaG]

“Oh yeah, well did she know xyz?” Anything to make her less than us, because we know xyz and she didn’t, with the emphasis on the ‘she didn’t’. “Hah! so there. Take that, Mary. So much for you, you didn’t understand anything about the Christ because you were just a stupid peasant incubator.” That’s what I hear with these lyrics.

Rather than having foreknowledge, Mary would have known everything that is prophecied in Scripture about the Messiah. According to tradition (small t), she was raised in the Temple until of marriageable age. She was taught the Jewish faith in depth from her earliest years. She knew the Jewish prophecies concerning the Messiah and they talk about making the lame walk and the blind see and being the salvation of the World. In addition, Simeon tells her that her Son is the Salvation of the World, that He is the long-awaited Messiah. Again, being very familiar with Jewish Scriptures, she would have understood what that meant which is why she pondered all these things in her heart.

All of this just explains why I dislike the song, lyrically. I have no comment on the music.

It is this bit ‘the child you delivered would soon deliver you’ which makes this song theologically incorrect. He was her Salvation when she was conceived.

I just stated my opinion that I don’t like this song, I think it is disrespectful to Mary as well as being theologically incorrect and I wouldn’t listen to it by choice myself. I’m not telling anyone else not to listen to it. Go ahead. No one is trying to stop you.

WOW! I wouldn’t like it either if that is what I thought it meant.

This song was written by Mark Lowry. There is supposed to be an explanation of what he was thinking when he wrote it, before he sings it on his album, Mark Lowry on Broadway. I could not find what he said without having to buy the album. The only written explanation I saw was that these were the questions he would have asked Mary if he could have talked to her.

I would have said, about 45 minutes ago, that I can’t imagine that the writer could have meant what you thought it meant. But I did go to his website. I was going to ask a question of him after looking around. I did not ask the question. But I did see that one of the books he recommended to someone was by Chuck Swindoll

I can’t remember much about that guy except I believe he is not a fan of Catholics. So who knows, maybe you read the intent better than I have.

I still love the song, the message that it gives to me, but I do wonder…

 

[Linda_Marie]

Thanks, Maria. I really wasn’t trying to offend anyone and I’m glad you understand.

May the blessings of the Christ Child be with you and yours this Christmas.

 

[MariaG]

Thanks, Maria. I really wasn’t trying to offend anyone and I’m glad you understand.

May the blessings of the Christ Child be with you and yours this Christmas.

Absolutely understand!

And may the Lord pour out blessings upon you and yours this Advent season

 

[Gertabelle]

Those of you that do not like it, don’t listen to it. That was not the question of the thread. Is the song theologically incorrect? Not is it sappy and not is it theologically incomplete.

Thanks for clarifying this again. I was indeed simply looking for the theological acceptability of this song. I have no say in whether or not it will be sung before mass on Christmas, and it appears I cannot make any suggestions to the group leader about changing a couple of words.

A song that brings this into sharp relief in words ordinary people can understand (when you kiss your little Baby, you kiss the face of God, etc) has actual catechetical value.

I never thought of it in this way. Thanks for helping me see some value in this song

Gorecki’s Totus Tuus is absolutely without question musically superior to Mary Don’t You Know. This would be the almost universal consent among the musically educated.

When a parent comes to me and wants my honest opinion as to their child’s musical potential I can give a pretty accurate assessment in most all cases.

I am also a musician and music educator (this is my 13th year in education ).

There is a danger in wearing the badge of “expert” just because we have more experience, education, knowledge, skills – especially in the area of the arts. Looking down our noses at people, while insisting that our opinions (which are, of course, perfectly well-reasoned and insightful ) are above reproach leads to the path of destruction. It’s called pride, and it is one of the deadly sins.

Are you sure “Totus Tuus” is musically superior to “Mary, Did You Know?” By what criteria, other than your own opinion? Complexity of harmony? Complexity of melody? Years in existence? I could just as easily argue that the latter is superior based on the variety of instruments used (not just voice, like that old Gorecki piece), or on the current amount of airtime it receives.

Opinions of artistic superiority are almost always based in one’s personal philosophy. While I enjoy the challenge of performing a 16th century motet, and I usually LOVE the experience of it, when I’m cleaning the house, or raking the yard, or tootling around town – give me some good Celtic tunes, or James Taylor, or Amy Grant.

Just a thought, dear one, but try considering for a moment that artistic superiority may lie in the minds and hearts of those participating in or interacting with that art form. Just one more possibility.

Incidentally, for mass, I almost always lean towards the ancient, or at least the older music

Gertie

 

[DaveBj]

WOW! I wouldn’t like it either if that is what I thought it meant.

This song was written by Mark Lowry. There is supposed to be an explanation of what he was thinking when he wrote it, before he sings it on his album, Mark Lowry on Broadway. I could not find what he said without having to buy the album. The only written explanation I saw was that these were the questions he would have asked Mary if he could have talked to her.

I would have said, about 45 minutes ago, that I can’t imagine that the writer could have meant what you thought it meant. But I did go to his website. I was going to ask a question of him after looking around. I did not ask the question. But I did see that one of the books he recommended to someone was by Chuck Swindoll

I can’t remember much about that guy except I believe he is not a fan of Catholics. So who knows, maybe you read the intent better than I have.

I still love the song, the message that it gives to me, but I do wonder…

I posted a youtube link to the clip you’re talking about somewhere on the first page.

There’s a lot of personal opinion (some of it misguided or based on a misunderstanding) that’s been tossed around in the previous posts as theological fact; I’ve said my bit and I’m not going to say any more, except 1) yes, the line “…this child that you delivered would soon deliver you” is theologically inaccurate, and 2) those who say that the song is a putdown of Mary simply do not know Mark Lowry or where he is coming from. Yes, the clip that I linked to is a comedy routine, but you would have to be deaf and blind to watch it and still say that he does not have a deep reverence for Mary, even if he does couch it in a Baptist perspective.

DaveBj

 

[elts1956]

This was my point. To a Protestant, in their blithe ignorance, Mary is just another woman, a sinner to boot, who needs to be informed that her Son is going to do x,y and Z. IMO - even though done in ignorance, it is typical Protestant disrespect for the Mother of God.

As one poster has in his signature that Bach is proof of God I submit rather we listen to Bach’s Magnificat, even though written by a mere Lutheran , still captures the overwhelming joy our Blessed Mother felt being the one in all history to called to be the Mother of God.

MonFrere

From my point of reference, I think the song is “asking” Mary “did she/you know”? The words are not saying she didn’t. My personal opinion is that she didn’t fully know what was in store for her in anguish and heartbreak in seeing her Son crucified. There are a few lines in Scripture that lead one to think she didn’t. ie. The Finding of the Child Jesus in the Temple, “Why have you treated us this way”. His answer, “Did you not know I must be about my Father’s business?” At the Presentation of the Infant Jesus at the Temple eight days after His birth, The Prophetess Anna tells Mary a “Sword will pierce your heart”. Simeon? says he can now die in peace because he has seen his savior. “Mary took these words and pondered them in her heart”.

 

[MariaG]

I posted a youtube link to the clip you’re talking about somewhere on the first page.

There’s a lot of personal opinion (some of it misguided or based on a misunderstanding) that’s been tossed around in the previous posts as theological fact; I’ve said my bit and I’m not going to say any more, except 1) yes, the line “…this child that you delivered would soon deliver you” is theologically inaccurate, and 2) those who say that the song is a putdown of Mary simply do not know Mark Lowry or where he is coming from. Yes, the clip that I linked to is a comedy routine, but you would have to be deaf and blind to watch it and still say that he does not have a deep reverence for Mary, even if he does couch it in a Baptist perspective.

DaveBj

Thank you! I must have missed that the first time through. It was post 51 located here The link worked fine when I watched all 9+ minutes of it. The first link in your post is the one I could not find. I could only find the second one. And if I had just read a little more carefully, I would have seen it earlier:coffeeread:Maybe I need to take up drinking coffee again

I watched the whole thing. I am glad. I love that song and it would have changed how I could listen to it if the person who wrote it was filled with some of the things people interpreted it to mean.

I did not hear any disrepect from him at all. I love the fact he brings up the first miracle was done at the request of Mary. Lowry said, she didn’t even ask, but Jesus knew what Mary wanted.

I hope that all who heard/read disrepect to Mary in the lyrics will take the time to watch the link.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[MonFrere]

There is a danger in wearing the badge of “expert” just because we have more experience, education, knowledge, skills – especially in the area of the arts. Looking down our noses at people, while insisting that our opinions (which are, of course, perfectly well-reasoned and insightful ) are above reproach leads to the path of destruction. It’s called pride, and it is one of the deadly sins.

The point of danger is noted.

Are you sure “Totus Tuus” is musically superior to “Mary, Did You Know?” By what criteria, other than your own opinion? Complexity of harmony? Complexity of melody? Years in existence? I could just as easily argue that the latter is superior based on the variety of instruments used (not just voice, like that old Gorecki piece), or on the current amount of airtime it receives.

**
Without any equivocation “Totus Tuus” is musically superior “Mary, Did You Know?”**

If you would argue from the point of instruments used - I would say that is a comment that demonstrates ignorance in the one making it and really wouldn’t be one that I’d take seriously; but not only me, but virtually anyone trained in the arts. About that “old” Gorecki piece - it was written in 1987; and that’s hardly “old”. When was “Mary, Did You Know?” written? I would guess within a decade of each other.

The most basic reason for it’s musical superiority is that it was written by a composer who dedicated his life to music that saw to it he was thoroughly trained in the art of composition. He was a leader in the avant garde but moved away from this to focus on music of greater simplicity. Gorecki is thoroughly trained for composing music of cultural relevance that exacts the highest degree of musical thought and art from the composer.
Does Lowry have remotely the training of Gorecki? So, how in the world could you expect him to write a piece musically superior to him. Virtually impossible. Certainly, there are rare (and I mean rare) exceptions in the classical world. Mussorgsky stands out as having great genius; but actually, was a clumsy composer. To put things in terms that you may understand – do you want to study your theology from an enthusiast or someone schooled in theology, a leader in their field, and someone who has pondered deeply about the theological issues of his time. For me to say that “Mary, Did You Know?” was superior to Totus Tuus would be for me to betray my lifetime of study in the field of music. It would be like saying someones homemade wine had the chance of being superior the wine from a celebrated winery.

Opinions of artistic superiority are almost always based in one’s personal philosophy. While I enjoy the challenge of performing a 16th century motet, and I usually LOVE the experience of it, when I’m cleaning the house, or raking the yard, or tootling around town – give me some good Celtic tunes, or James Taylor, or Amy Grant.

Exactly, when you’re occupied and you can weave in and out of listening to the music you choose, it is no wonder you grab James Taylor.

Just a thought, dear one, but try considering for a moment that artistic superiority may lie in the minds and hearts of those participating in or interacting with that art form. Just one more possibility.

All religions are not equal.
All literature is not equal.
All music is not equal.

Another possibility is that there is a possibility that someone can be more knowledge able on a topic than another. False piety is also based upon pride.

MonFrere

 

[pnewton]

Without any equivocation “Totus Tuus” is musically superior "Mary, Did You Know?

If you would argue from the point of instruments used …

If one were to argue from font size, you would be right.

All religions are not equal.
All literature is not equal.
All music is not equal.

I have never seen these three in the same category.

There was a great show on cable this week on the subjective and objective nature of beauty. While we as a species oft find ourselves in agreement on many issues, cross-cultural analysis shows that most of our ideas of beauty are learned, not objective. As a blue-collar Southerner who was raised by dirt poor, cotton-picking Okies, I have a different view on what constitutes beautiful music and great literature. On the other hand, unlike those that grew up in a different lifestyle, I can appreciate other forms of music and art. The only thing I will never appreciate is being told that I am wrong for my taste. It is my subjective opinion that such statements of opinion being presented as fact are snobbish and elitist.