"Mary did you know?"

[jmjconder]

The music of Pentatonix has deep spiritual affect on me. I have encouraged my social media contacts to listen to their Advent/Christmas songs. I never expected the comments I received about one my favorite tunes…“Mary Did You Know?”

Let me say there are too many Catholic tunes that are not 100% faithful to the theology of our Church.

The verse that people have brought up was “this child that you’ve delivered will soon deliver you.”

I know Mary was conceived without sin - question is - did God know that His Son will deliver all of us by the Pascal Mystery. Was Mary granted this grace from all eternity knowing that in a moment in time - Jesus would be the path to salvation for her?

Peace on earth

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

My favorite pastor told me that the even though the Immaculate Conception occurred before the crucifixion in human history, it was the action of Jesus on the Cross through which it came to pass.

So if this is right, then I’d say Jesus was to die for her sin; the deal was that in her particular case, it was retroactive and inclusive of original sin. After that there would be no more need. So with Mary’s conception, she had original sin because of the inevitability I guess. Something like that is my take; there surely are fancier words for it I’m sure.

 

[MaryT777]

Interesting question…

 

[z_0101]

My favorite pastor told me that the even though the Immaculate Conception occurred before the crucifixion in human history, it was the action of Jesus on the Cross through which it came to pass.

This is a very muddled, (understandably), at best explanation of what the Church teaches - in these cases I try to go back to the CCC and the cross references given therein:
CCC492
492 The “splendor of an entirely unique holiness” by which Mary is “enriched from the first instant of her conception” comes wholly from Christ: she is “redeemed, in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son”.136 The Father blessed Mary more than any other created person “in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places” and chose her “in Christ before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless before him in love”.13

So with Mary’s conception, she had original sin

Except it clearly states in Church teachings that Mary is the Immaculate Conception, to say it another way; the Holy Mother was preserved from all sin, including original sin, from the beginning of creation. Mind you, this teaching took the Church quite a long time to arrive at, and is an Infallible Teaching - "The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was officially defined by Pope Pius IX in 1854. "(1)

(1) Here is a well done CA tract that goes into this: Immaculate Conception and Assumption

Keep in mind the parable of The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, it is to me suggested that those that had died keeping the old Convenient were not in Hell; however, they were not in heaven either.
22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell.

Therefore, what I take the phrase, “this child that you’ve delivered will soon deliver you,” in the song lyrics to mean is that The Lord Christ will open the Gates of Heaven for her as he did for all of us - otherwise we’d be in “Abraham’s bosom” instead of being delivered into the the Kingdom of Heaven with our Lord.

 

[JackVk]

One of the best analogies I’ve heard on the IC is that Mary was “vaccinated” by the Cross of Christ.

 

[Robyn_p]

The music of Pentatonix has deep spiritual affect on me. I have encouraged my social media contacts to listen to their Advent/Christmas songs. I never expected the comments I received about one my favorite tunes…“Mary Did You Know?”

Let me say there are too many Catholic tunes that are not 100% faithful to the theology of our Church.

The verse that people have brought up was “this child that you’ve delivered will soon deliver you.”

I know Mary was conceived without sin - question is - did God know that His Son will deliver all of us by the Pascal Mystery.

Yes. God knew. It was his plan.

Was Mary granted this grace from all eternity knowing that in a moment in time - Jesus would be the path to salvation for her?

Peace on earth

I don’t know. She knew God was her savior. (Lk 1:47) She knew Jesus was the messiah. So I think she might have had some idea.

Full disclosure: I’m one of those people who don’t particularly like the song, Though to be clear, I don’t have a problem with the song itself. I just don’t think it belongs in the liturgy. (Not excusing Catholic songs here. I don’t think a lot of those belong either.) There are too many problems with it, and it could confuse people. Besides the Immaculate Conception part, the whole thing just makes Mary sound clueless. She wasn’t. She didn’t know EVERYTHING. But she knew who her Son was.

I think one blogger I like summed it up well. The song is a good step forward for Evangelical thought on Mary. They now have a song addressing Mary, and they are thinking about her relationship to Jesus. That’s a good thing! We can be happy about that.

But it’s really a step backwards for Catholic thought on Mary. We don’t need to be singing it in Mass. There’s so many better Marian songs out there.

 

[jmjconder]

Yes. God knew. It was his plan.

I don’t know. She knew God was her savior. (Lk 1:47) She knew Jesus was the messiah. So I think she might have had some idea.

Full disclosure: I’m one of those people who don’t particularly like the song, Though to be clear, I don’t have a problem with the song itself. I just don’t think it belongs in the liturgy. (Not excusing Catholic songs here. I don’t think a lot of those belong either.) There are too many problems with it, and it could confuse people. Besides the Immaculate Conception part, the whole thing just makes Mary sound clueless. She wasn’t. She didn’t know EVERYTHING. But she knew who her Son was.

I think one blogger I like summed it up well. The song is a good step forward for Evangelical thought on Mary. They now have a song addressing Mary, and they are thinking about her relationship to Jesus. That’s a good thing! We can be happy about that.

But it’s really a step backwards for Catholic thought on Mary. We don’t need to be singing it in Mass. There’s so many better Marian songs out there.

I have never heard it at Mass. I meant to comment on listening to the song outside of Mass. There are, as you say many beautiful Marian songs that many sing within the liturgy. This particular song is part of my car concert that I preform when driving.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

I let others tell me what they think Mary does or says or wants.

For me, I try to place highest priority on what Mary was last documented to have said, “Go do what He tells you to do.”

And Jesus’s Father spoke and told us He is pleased and we should “Listen to Him.”

So to me, theology is something that I do not need to understand in a technical way.

When Jesus says “do not judge,” I try to imagine just how radically I can wipe every morsel of judgmental thoughts, righteous indignation which is death disguised as duty.

 

[jmcrae]

The music of Pentatonix has deep spiritual affect on me. I have encouraged my social media contacts to listen to their Advent/Christmas songs. I never expected the comments I received about one my favorite tunes…“Mary Did You Know?”

Let me say there are too many Catholic tunes that are not 100% faithful to the theology of our Church.

The verse that people have brought up was “this child that you’ve delivered will soon deliver you.”

I know Mary was conceived without sin - question is - did God know that His Son will deliver all of us by the Pascal Mystery. Was Mary granted this grace from all eternity knowing that in a moment in time - Jesus would be the path to salvation for her?

Peace on earth

“Mary, did you know … ?”

Of course she knew. She wasn’t an idiot.
The head-patting condescension is also not a tone in which I would address my own mother, let alone the Mother of God. I might address a small child or a disabled person in those kind of condescending tones, if I were tired and not thinking straight.

 

[z_0101]

it amazes me that there is such a negative view of this song… condescending?

Maybe we should post the lyrics… if you really, really, listen to the song, it is asked from our view point, as we are, we are children… and the song is a prayer to our Holy Mother asking a series of questions…

SO let us get the actual background of the song:
Martha: Who’s idea was the song? Where did the idea for it originate from…the inspiration?

Mark Lowry: Well, my Pastor asked me to write the Christmas program for our church, called The Living Christmas Tree, & I wrote some monologue to go in between the songs. I started thinking & wondering if Mary realized the power, authority & majesty that she cradled in her arms that first Christmas. I wondered if she realized those little hands were the same hands that scooped out oceans & formed rivers. I just tried to put into words the unfathomable. I started thinking of the questions I would have for her if I were to sit down & have coffee with Mary.…you know, “What was it like raising God?” “…What did you know?” “…What didn’t you know?”. Over time, it (the song) just happened & I had the lyric.
(( The Story Behind the Song: “Mary, Did You Know?” ))

I have four kids, and they all ask questions of me like this on everything from how bacon is made to who is Jesus and how can God be three people (remember these are kids). To be honest with you… if I had only one question I could ask the Holy Mother between now and my death… and only one… I would ask her, Did You Know? Not because she’s stupid, but because I cannot comprehend having a archangel speak to me, let alone imagine what our Holy Mother experienced.

So, take the song in that context, that we are children, asking Mom about one of the greatest events in history (second only to our Lord’s passion)…

IMHO: The group’s voices are beautiful, they harmonize better than any a cappella group I’ve heard in years (and I listen to several). The pentatonix version is one of my favorites as compared to: Clay Akins, Kenny Rogers, Rebia Mcentire…

Maybe we should listen to something a little less controversial such as links given in my signature… O Come, Emmanuel

 

[jmjconder]

They have taped O Come O Come … And Silent night - each touch my soul. Not merely because their harmony is incredible - for me - it is so clear that they are not only singing…they are praying ever song.

 

[Robyn_p]

I have never heard it at Mass.

You’re lucky.

I meant to comment on listening to the song outside of Mass. There are, as you say many beautiful Marian songs that many sing within the liturgy. This particular song is part of my car concert that I preform when driving.

Well that I don’t have an issue with. I do the same with other songs. I like them, just not in church.

 

[Robyn_p]

The head-patting condescension is also not a tone in which I would address my own mother, let alone the Mother of God. I might address a small child or a disabled person in those kind of condescending tones, if I were tired and not thinking straight.

What about Darth Vader?

youtube.com/watch?v=OFrcwcBVVjU

The guy who wrote this is a genius.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

They have taped O Come O Come … And Silent night - each touch my soul. Not merely because their harmony is incredible - for me - it is so clear that they are not only singing…they are praying ever song.

Yes, their music is beautiful and enchanting, but does it have an imprimatur and nihil obstat?

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

What about Darth Vader?

youtube.com/watch?v=OFrcwcBVVjU

The guy who wrote this is a genius.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

I know why it looks condescending. It’s the look on the faces of two of them; the girl and that one guy who does bass mostly I think but if you don’t know what I mean then you are influenced by it subliminally anyway. They just look a little too smug, like they are pretty sure of themselves. This sort of confident appearance is very awkward looking to those of us who think it means they know better than Mary.

Gosh to speculate that a human mother didn’t know what was to happen in the future is putting ourselves above her? When she was told about being preggers with Jesus, she didn’t even know how that had happened in the past!

As far as I know, the little girl who said “yes” did not comprehend what she was getting into. She was not described to be an omniscient deity; just receptive and compliant. Of course to the Catholic mentality, it seems to insinuate that she was not God herself is technically correct but it feels so wrong that we feel an obligation to be offended about their efforts to worship, because Mary wants us to protect her that way from people who sing about her Son with funny looks on their faces.

My intent here is not to insult, but observe. It’s plenty easy to see how the “Mary devotion” we have can be not only construed, but practiced as, “Mary worship.”

But the truth is, she did not know what He was to become. Otherwise Simeon wouldn’t really have had anything useful to say.

Luke 2
33 The child’s father and mother were amazed at what was said about him; 34 and Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother, “Behold, this child is destined for the fall and rise of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be contradicted 35 (and you yourself a sword will pierce)[k] so that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.”

No. Mary did not know. I guess maybe it’s awkward because it’s a rhetorical question.

 

[Googler]

Father Calloway has an interesting take on this HERE.

God initiated creation, allowing for its fall, because He planned to spiritually renew and elevate all creation according to the pattern of the Immaculate Conception; thus, the Immaculate Conception is not an after-thought but, rather, the instrument through which God sees the world.

 

[jmjconder]

I know why it looks condescending. It’s the look on the faces of two of them; the girl and that one guy who does bass mostly I think but if you don’t know what I mean then you are influenced by it subliminally anyway. They just look a little too smug, like they are pretty sure of themselves. This sort of confident appearance is very awkward looking to those of us who think it means they know better than Mary.

Gosh to speculate that a human mother didn’t know what was to happen in the future is putting ourselves above her? When she was told about being preggers with Jesus, she didn’t even know how that had happened in the past!

As far as I know, the little girl who said “yes” did not comprehend what she was getting into. She was not described to be an omniscient deity; just receptive and compliant. Of course to the Catholic mentality, it seems to insinuate that she was not God herself is technically correct but it feels so wrong that we feel an obligation to be offended about their efforts to worship, because Mary wants us to protect her that way from people who sing about her Son with funny looks on their faces.

My intent here is not to insult, but observe. It’s plenty easy to see how the “Mary devotion” we have can be not only construed, but practiced as, “Mary worship.”

But the truth is, she did not know what He was to become. Otherwise Simeon wouldn’t really have had anything useful to say.

Luke 2
33 The child’s father and mother were amazed at what was said about him; 34 and Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother, “Behold, this child is destined for the fall and rise of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be contradicted 35 (and you yourself a sword will pierce)[k] so that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.”

No. Mary did not know. I guess maybe it’s awkward because it’s a rhetorical question.

I fully agree with your post. When I entered an advanced degree in Theology one of the professores (who is nationally known) said Mary was 100% human. She was not aware of how her “Yes” would unfold. This is so edifying and a divine role model to accept, listen and allow HIM to guide our lives.

 

[jmjconder]

One of the best analogies I’ve heard on the IC is that Mary was “vaccinated” by the Cross of Christ.

Love this analogy. The other I have heard has to do with a “puddle” of sin - we all plow our way through it - Mary was given the path to go around it.

 

[jmjconder]

Yes, their music is beautiful and enchanting, but does it have an imprimatur and nihil obstat?

I have the great honor of knowing several Catholic musicians who have always wrote and sung about our faith. I thought a imprimatur and nihil obstat was for books…I may be incorrect.