L
Lion
Guest
Not to be nit-picky, but i just listened Celion Dion’s version and it sounded more like the Magnificant in some ways and not the Hail Mary… just being curious…
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L
Lion
Guest
i would have to agree with you and your wife. I trust that the majority of people (Catholics) are able to discern truth from fiction… I would be surprised to hear this particular song in a Catholic Church just as I would be surprised to hear Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer… having said that, I still like both of these songs… have a VERY MERRY CHRISTMAS!What I have gathered in the past is that Protestants just aren’t too comfortable singing about Mary. That one line about “kissing the face of God” would probably send them into convulsions, since it reminds them that Mary is the mother of God, since Jesus is God.
My wife and I were talking about this today, and we got to discussing the use of figurative language in songs in order to make larger points or convey messages. I just think the scrutiny we’re placing on this single song is probably unwarranted. I bet all of us could find much worse stuff being played during Mass, and I am not sure anyone here was necessarily supporting its use in Mass anyway. I guess this thread has got a little off course–in looking at the last post.
L
Lion
Guest
Well, I love this song, and I love to hear Mark Lowry or Buddy Green sing it. Mark Lowry wrote the words; they’re questions he’s thought about and would like to ask Mary. From hearing him speak about the song, I’ve thought they may be sort of rhetorical…basically asking her if she knew what was coming by being the mother of Jesus.
QUOTE]
I’ve often wondered, what did Gabriel tell her ( and yes I know what the scripture tells us)… what knowledge came to Mary through the Holy Spirit at the moment of conception (or later)? I guess I’ll find out when I meet Them (Jesus and Mary)
D
Denise_Shae
Guest
Hi Lion,Not to be nit-picky, but i just listened Celion Dion’s version and it sounded more like the Magnificant in some ways and not the Hail Mary… just being curious…
Was just curious… Does the Celine Dion version of the “Ave Maria” you heard go something like this?
Ave Maria!
Maiden mild!
Oh, listen to a maiden’s prayer
For thou canst hear amid the wild
This thou, this thou canst save amid, despair
We slumber safely til the morrow
Though we be man outcast, relived
Oh, Maiden, hear a maiden’s sorrow
Oh, Mother, hear a suppliant child!
Ave Maria
Ave Maria, gracia plena
Maria, gratia plena
Maria, gratia plena
Ave, ave dominus
Dominus tecum
The murky cavern’s air so heavy
Shall breath of balm if thou hast smiled
Oh, Maiden, hear a maiden pleading
Oh, Mother, hear a suppliant child
Ave Maria, Ave Maria
Actually, Celine Dion’s version isn’t really the “Ave Maria”/“Hail Mary”.
The original title is: “Ellens dritter Gesang” (Ellen’s third song), composed by Franz Schubert.
It’s from a play called “Lady of the Lake” by Walter Scott. (Full text at link site)
The actual “Ave Maria” hymn we sing at Mass is:
Ave Maria Gratia plena
Maria Gratia plena
Maria Gratia plena
Ave, ave dominus
Dominus tecum
Benedicta tu in mulieribus
Et benedictus
Et benedictus fructus ventris
Ventris tui Jesus
Ave Maria
Ave Maria Mater dei
Ora pro nobis pecatoribus
Ora, ora pro nobis
Ora ora pro nobis pecatoribus
Nunc et in hora mortis
In hora mortis, mortis nostrae
In hora mortis nostrae
Ave Maria!
Me too. Much better than Gounod’s version, IMHO.I love Schubert’s version and could listen to it every day (which i do to some extent)?
God Bless and have a Great & Blessed Christmas!
D
daeve
Guest
Back in the middle ages (1950s and 60s) we always did the Gregorian in church. Sometimes it’s in the psalmbook as the verse on the Gospel Acclimation. There were only two of us in the choir old enough to remember it!
I don’t know if this is accurate, but I’d heard that the Schubert wasn’t allowed in church…don’t remember why. At our wedding we had one by someone named Rosewig or something like that. I don’t recall the enough of the name to look it up, but it was really pretty. My mother used to sing it at weddings.
I don’t know if this is accurate, but I’d heard that the Schubert wasn’t allowed in church…don’t remember why. At our wedding we had one by someone named Rosewig or something like that. I don’t recall the enough of the name to look it up, but it was really pretty. My mother used to sing it at weddings.
D
Denise_Shae
Guest
Ironically enough, like Lion, I’ve only heard it sung at Funerals and Weddings. (The priest who married my husband and I sang it for us)Back in the middle ages (1950s and 60s) we always did the Gregorian in church. Sometimes it’s in the psalmbook as the verse on the Gospel Acclimation. There were only two of us in the choir old enough to remember it!
I don’t know if this is accurate, but I’d heard that the Schubert wasn’t allowed in church…don’t remember why. At our wedding we had one by someone named Rosewig or something like that. I don’t recall the enough of the name to look it up, but it was really pretty. My mother used to sing it at weddings.
Strange thing is; whenever I hear it, the song stops at: “Ora ora pro nobis pecatoribus”.
The last part:
“Nunc et in hora mortis
In hora mortis, mortis nostrae
In hora mortis nostrae
Ave Maria!” is always left out, and I don’t have a clue as to why.
I’d love to know why they wouldn’t allow Schubert’s version.
I’ve never had the pleasure of hearing it chanted.
Thanks for the info.
God Bless!
U
Unfinished
Guest
Anyone in this thread read the protoevangelium of James?
I know, it is an apocryphal book, but after reading it, it doesn’t seem to contradict Catholic teaching at all. Perhaps it just wasn’t widely used enough in the early Church to get put in the Bible.
ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-08/anf08-67.htm
It talks about how Mary was born, and her giving birth to Christ. She was in no pain (it appears) during the birth. (Yay immaculate conception!) A cloud kind of desends upon them. And then the midwife comes to believe because after she gives birth she is still a virgin. It does get kind of graphic there when it talks about “checking to make sure she is still a virgin.”
Anyways, a BIT off topic, but a good 20 minute read. My point was, the “Mary did you know” song is quite…iffy. I bet 50 bucks that she DID know. :twocents:
I know, it is an apocryphal book, but after reading it, it doesn’t seem to contradict Catholic teaching at all. Perhaps it just wasn’t widely used enough in the early Church to get put in the Bible.
ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-08/anf08-67.htm
It talks about how Mary was born, and her giving birth to Christ. She was in no pain (it appears) during the birth. (Yay immaculate conception!) A cloud kind of desends upon them. And then the midwife comes to believe because after she gives birth she is still a virgin. It does get kind of graphic there when it talks about “checking to make sure she is still a virgin.”
Anyways, a BIT off topic, but a good 20 minute read. My point was, the “Mary did you know” song is quite…iffy. I bet 50 bucks that she DID know. :twocents:
M
MarthaMartha
Guest
Or “The Angel Gabriel from Heaven Came.”Not to mention the words imply that she doesn’t know she’s carrying the Saviour in her womb, which she did.
I have never heard this one, thankfully. What ever happened to Ave Maria, or Salve Regina?
I
im_wildrose
Guest
I was thinking about this some more today and started wondering something – how much did Mary know? I mean, is there any evidence or belief that she prophetically knew what would happen in Jesus’ life? I could see her having some revelation or thoughts - perhaps flashes of insight - of some things, but I can’t imagine her really knowing what His life would be like. In fact, I’d say that scripture almost supports the opposite - that she didn’t know. Even when Jesus is left in the Temple in Jerusalem, Mary and Joseph don’t fully understand what Jesus means when He says that He was about His Father’s Business. Also, even the people of the time didn’t fully understand what the Son of God would need to do. The Zealots thought that He was going to lead them in a revolution and Jesus was’t what the Pharasees envisioned at all.
Anyway, I’ll be the first to admit that I’m theologically challenged and, while I’m always learning and trying to improve, there’s a lot I still don’t know. It just seems impossible that Mary could have known, at the moment of Jesus’ birth, what she was to expect and how Jesus’ life would unfold. She may have had an inkling of what God’s Son would need to do, but more likely she was just in peaceful awe of this beautifully perfect Child that she just gave birth to and wondering what it really meant to be the Mother of God.
God bless, Jen
Anyway, I’ll be the first to admit that I’m theologically challenged and, while I’m always learning and trying to improve, there’s a lot I still don’t know. It just seems impossible that Mary could have known, at the moment of Jesus’ birth, what she was to expect and how Jesus’ life would unfold. She may have had an inkling of what God’s Son would need to do, but more likely she was just in peaceful awe of this beautifully perfect Child that she just gave birth to and wondering what it really meant to be the Mother of God.
God bless, Jen
D
davy39
Guest
Yes, Mark Lowry, ex-member of the Gaither Vocal band, wrote and usually performs the song. I used to like it until I listened to the words. I can only take so much of the Gaither Homecomings. Too much weeping and arm-waving for me. Right out of the evangelical playbook. The performers are very good and gifted people. Especially the piano player, Anthony Berger, who died recently at the age of 43, I believe. Quite a loss.
L
Lion
Guest
I’m like you (“theologically challenged”) but have wondered the same… how much did Mary know? Good question!!I was thinking about this some more today and started wondering something – how much did Mary know? I mean, is there any evidence or belief that she prophetically knew what would happen in Jesus’ life? I could see her having some revelation or thoughts - perhaps flashes of insight - of some things, but I can’t imagine her really knowing what His life would be like. In fact, I’d say that scripture almost supports the opposite - that she didn’t know. Even when Jesus is left in the Temple in Jerusalem, Mary and Joseph don’t fully understand what Jesus means when He says that He was about His Father’s Business. Also, even the people of the time didn’t fully understand what the Son of God would need to do. The Zealots thought that He was going to lead them in a revolution and Jesus was’t what the Pharasees envisioned at all.
Anyway, I’ll be the first to admit that I’m theologically challenged and, while I’m always learning and trying to improve, there’s a lot I still don’t know. It just seems impossible that Mary could have known, at the moment of Jesus’ birth, what she was to expect and how Jesus’ life would unfold. She may have had an inkling of what God’s Son would need to do, but more likely she was just in peaceful awe of this beautifully perfect Child that she just gave birth to and wondering what it really meant to be the Mother of God.
God bless, Jen
W
WanderAimlessly
Guest
I can sympathise with you. I am leaving my current parish due to the “Music Minister”. However, being called bigoted" and “prejudice” is uncalled for and you should not stand for it.ARGH!!!
I went to a music planning meeting with a group in our church as a liason from the Liturgy Cmte. They are not under the “umbrella” of authority of the music leader…
They chose this song for one of the prelude songs for Christmas Day Mass. I told them that theologically the line “This child that you delivered, will soon deliver you” was a Protestant view and perhaps that since we ARE Catholic we should change it to “This child that you delivered, will soon deliver ALL” instead.
It was shot down and I was called “bigoted” and “prejudice”.
What do I do? Any thoughts? Our Priest supports this group. Their style is contemporary and they’ve even taken the Psalm of the day out several times to put in a sing-songy type song they had heard on the local Protestant Christian station.
again… ARGH!
Steph
At the next Liturgy Cmte meeting bring this up. If you are treated the same way, I would consider resigning, changing parishes, and writing a letter to the Bishop. This type of hostility is uncalled for.
F
FrCorey
Guest
Good thing they didn’t do,
O Mary, Don’t You Weep no More.
Well if I could I surely would
Stand on the rock where Moses stood
Pharaoh’s army got drownded
O Mary don’t you weep
O Mary don’t you weep, don’t you mourn
O Mary don’t you weep, don’t you mourn
Pharaoh’s army got drownded
O Mary don’t you weep
Well Mary wore three links and chains
On every link was Jesus’ name
Pharaoh’s army got drownded
O Mary don’t you weep
O Mary don’t you weep, don’t you mourn
O Mary don’t you weep, don’t you mourn
Pharaoh’s army got drownded
O Mary don’t you weep
O Mary, Don’t You Weep no More.
Well if I could I surely would
Stand on the rock where Moses stood
Pharaoh’s army got drownded
O Mary don’t you weep
O Mary don’t you weep, don’t you mourn
O Mary don’t you weep, don’t you mourn
Pharaoh’s army got drownded
O Mary don’t you weep
Well Mary wore three links and chains
On every link was Jesus’ name
Pharaoh’s army got drownded
O Mary don’t you weep
O Mary don’t you weep, don’t you mourn
O Mary don’t you weep, don’t you mourn
Pharaoh’s army got drownded
O Mary don’t you weep
D
Dominic_Brother
Guest
The phrase of the song in debate is “This child that you’ve delivered, will soon deliver you”
It can be problematic for Catholics in the way you interpret the lyric. (let me emphasize the word interpretation)
If the phrase makes you believe that Jesus will be delivering Mary by forgiving her sin(s), well then of course, as a Catholic, how can you enjoy the song? We Catholics believe Mary was conceived with no sin at all.
However, you can interpret the phrase in many ways.
Here is how I interpret the phrase to my liking. (even if the person who wrote the song meant that Mary was delivered from sin, I’ll take my view over his intentions. If that’s the case, too bad for the writer I say. .……kind of like when the Church took a pagan feast like Halloween and turned it into All Souls/All Saints Day, not exactly the same analogy but close enough for me)
Mary had great faith, but she had to grow in her faith. In fact, even Jesus grew both in body and in wisdom; “without sin of course”. (see Luke 2:52) In Mary’s case, there were things that Mary didn’t fully understand. Example…
Mary was deeply troubled by the angel Gabriel’s greeting to her and she wondered what his words meant. (see Luke 1:29)
When the shepherds found Mary at Bethlehem and told her what the angel(s) had told them, Mary kept all these things, reflecting on them in her heart. (see Luke 2:19)
Again, when Joseph and Mary find the boy Jesus in the temple, they did not understand His answer. But again, Mary treasured all these things in her heart. (see Luke 2:50-52)
Now, you can believe that Mary was delivered when she fully understood everything.
Or, you can believe that she was delivered when she was assumed Body and Soul into Heaven.
But for me, I like to believe she was delivered at the foot of the cross when Jesus told her she was the Mother of us all. Jesus delivered Her to us. And just as she was happy to be the Mother of Jesus, she is happy to be the Mother of us also.
It can be problematic for Catholics in the way you interpret the lyric. (let me emphasize the word interpretation)
If the phrase makes you believe that Jesus will be delivering Mary by forgiving her sin(s), well then of course, as a Catholic, how can you enjoy the song? We Catholics believe Mary was conceived with no sin at all.
However, you can interpret the phrase in many ways.
Here is how I interpret the phrase to my liking. (even if the person who wrote the song meant that Mary was delivered from sin, I’ll take my view over his intentions. If that’s the case, too bad for the writer I say. .……kind of like when the Church took a pagan feast like Halloween and turned it into All Souls/All Saints Day, not exactly the same analogy but close enough for me)
Mary had great faith, but she had to grow in her faith. In fact, even Jesus grew both in body and in wisdom; “without sin of course”. (see Luke 2:52) In Mary’s case, there were things that Mary didn’t fully understand. Example…
Mary was deeply troubled by the angel Gabriel’s greeting to her and she wondered what his words meant. (see Luke 1:29)
When the shepherds found Mary at Bethlehem and told her what the angel(s) had told them, Mary kept all these things, reflecting on them in her heart. (see Luke 2:19)
Again, when Joseph and Mary find the boy Jesus in the temple, they did not understand His answer. But again, Mary treasured all these things in her heart. (see Luke 2:50-52)
Now, you can believe that Mary was delivered when she fully understood everything.
Or, you can believe that she was delivered when she was assumed Body and Soul into Heaven.
But for me, I like to believe she was delivered at the foot of the cross when Jesus told her she was the Mother of us all. Jesus delivered Her to us. And just as she was happy to be the Mother of Jesus, she is happy to be the Mother of us also.
W
Writer
Guest
Great post… The CCC says that Mary was redeemed at the moment of her conception. I udnerstand this as meaning redeemed by Christ. I would suggest that her sinless state was a special grace bestowed on Mary by God. So…it seems no matter how you cut it, the phrase is clearly in accordance with our Catechism.The phrase of the song in debate is “This child that you’ve delivered, will soon deliver you”
It can be problematic for Catholics in the way you interpret the lyric. (let me emphasize the word interpretation)
If the phrase makes you believe that Jesus will be delivering Mary by forgiving her sin(s), well then of course, as a Catholic, how can you enjoy the song? We Catholics believe Mary was conceived with no sin at all.
However, you can interpret the phrase in many ways.
Here is how I interpret the phrase to my liking. (even if the person who wrote the song meant that Mary was delivered from sin, I’ll take my view over his intentions. If that’s the case, too bad for the writer I say. .……kind of like when the Church took a pagan feast like Halloween and turned it into All Souls/All Saints Day, not exactly the same analogy but close enough for me)
Mary had great faith, but she had to grow in her faith. In fact, even Jesus grew both in body and in wisdom; “without sin of course”. (see Luke 2:52) In Mary’s case, there were things that Mary didn’t fully understand. Example…
Mary was deeply troubled by the angel Gabriel’s greeting to her and she wondered what his words meant. (see Luke 1:29)
When the shepherds found Mary at Bethlehem and told her what the angel(s) had told them, Mary kept all these things, reflecting on them in her heart. (see Luke 2:19)
Again, when Joseph and Mary find the boy Jesus in the temple, they did not understand His answer. But again, Mary treasured all these things in her heart. (see Luke 2:50-52)
Now, you can believe that Mary was delivered when she fully understood everything.
Or, you can believe that she was delivered when she was assumed Body and Soul into Heaven.
But for me, I like to believe she was delivered at the foot of the cross when Jesus told her she was the Mother of us all. Jesus delivered Her to us. And just as she was happy to be the Mother of Jesus, she is happy to be the Mother of us also.
R
rr1213
Guest
Where does it say that she was the mother of us all?But for me, I like to believe she was delivered at the foot of the cross when Jesus told her she was the Mother of us all. Jesus delivered Her to us. And just as she was happy to be the Mother of Jesus, she is happy to be the Mother of us also.
D
dessert
Guest
Thank you for the words to the ave maria I have been looking for them forever even though I have the music I couldn’t get all the words down.Hi Lion,
Was just curious… Does the Celine Dion version of the “Ave Maria” you heard go something like this?
Actually, Celine Dion’s version isn’t really the “Ave Maria”/“Hail Mary”.
The original title is: “Ellens dritter Gesang” (Ellen’s third song), composed by Franz Schubert.
It’s from a play called “Lady of the Lake” by Walter Scott. (Full text at link site)
The actual “Ave Maria” hymn we sing at Mass is:The melody is the same as on Celine Dion’s CD.
Me too. Much better than Gounod’s version, IMHO.
God Bless and have a Great & Blessed Christmas!
I don’t think Mary really knew ALL of what was going to happen, afterall she probably would have freaked out a little she was human. I like the tune a little but not sure it is good for mass either. It does imply a sort of we know something you don’t attitude against Mary. I’m sure the Holy Spirit revealed to her through Jesus ministry what was awaiting and she knew in the end and the song doesn’t really finish thee story as Mary would have done the Fathers will no matter.
return and may you have a blessed Chrismas also!
W
Writer
Guest
I’m a recent convert from the Protestant tradition, so I might not understand it quite right either. My take on it is that Christians are seen in a similar way as adopted brothers of Christ–members of one (divided) family. Since Christ’s mother (the mother of God) is Mary, logic suggests that she is likewise our mother in a sense… I think what the earlier poster was making reference to was Christ’s declaration on the cross…“Behold your mother!” In a larger and clearer sense, I think she can be referred to as the mother of the Church, since she was the mother of the founder or originator of said church. In a further digression, “mother of all” may be seen as an allusion to Mary as the new Eve–where Eve disobeyed and opened the world to sin, Mary obeyed and opened the world to redemption.Where does it say that she was the mother of us all?
C
chotock
Guest
very well saidI’m a recent convert from the Protestant tradition, so I might not understand it quite right either. My take on it is that Christians are seen in a similar way as adopted brothers of Christ–members of one (divided) family. Since Christ’s mother (the mother of God) is Mary, logic suggests that she is likewise our mother in a sense… I think what the earlier poster was making reference to was Christ’s declaration on the cross…“Behold your mother!” In a larger and clearer sense, I think she can be referred to as the mother of the Church, since she was the mother of the founder or originator of said church. In a further digression, “mother of all” may be seen as an allusion to Mary as the new Eve–where Eve disobeyed and opened the world to sin, Mary obeyed and opened the world to redemption.
D
Dominic_Brother
Guest
The Scriptures don’t specifically say “Mary is the Mother of us all”. You have to meditate and pray when you read (John 19:26-27) and ask for understanding of the scripture passage. It stands by reason, that if the Apostle John, a sinner himself, becomes a ‘son’, then logically, we too can become ‘sons’.
But, as per the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC 2679)
“Mary is the perfect Orans (pray-er), a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father, who sends his Son to save all men. Like the beloved disciple we welcome Jesus’ mother into our homes, for she has become the mother of all the living. We can pray with and to her. The prayer of the Church is sustained by the prayer of Mary and united with it in hope.”
But, as per the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC 2679)
“Mary is the perfect Orans (pray-er), a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father, who sends his Son to save all men. Like the beloved disciple we welcome Jesus’ mother into our homes, for she has become the mother of all the living. We can pray with and to her. The prayer of the Church is sustained by the prayer of Mary and united with it in hope.”
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