Mary, Did You Know

[Lovemyfaith]

Mark Lowry is an Evangelical Protestant, so there’s no need to ponder what he means. He doesn’t believe in the Immaculate Conception.

I’ve never cared for the song myself as it has no basis in Scripture or Tradition.

I don’t like the song.

But when I first heard it, what struck me as most odd was an Evangelical Protestant singing to Mary in the first place. It always seems to me Evangelicals stay away from our Blessed Mother. Of course I am not an authority on Evangelicals by any means, but from what little I know it seems the way.

 

[thann]

I love the song.

I was asked by my music director to sing it during our concert before Midnight Mass. I changed the problematic lyric to, “This child that you’ve delivered has delivered you.”

The “did you know?” part is simply a rhetorical device, as someone else in this thread pointed out.

'thann

 

[ncjohn]

I love the song.

I was asked by my music director to sing it during our concert before Midnight Mass. I changed the problematic lyric to, “This child that you’ve delivered has delivered you.”

The “did you know?” part is simply a rhetorical device, as someone else in this thread pointed out.

'thann

That’s an excellent change that would certainly make it clearer.

 

[KephasAugustine]

I like to picture a little kid who has just made a huge discovery–as far as kids go. A child who finds something out gets all excited and runs to his mother saying “did you know? Did you know?!” Of course the mother knew; she’s wiser than the child and knows pretty much everything the little tyke could possibly know…I like to think of the song in that light, as we are Mary’s children, excited at the birth of Christ. Of course, as the wise Mother, she knows everything we know…but I’m sure she smiles at our excitement.

As far as that one line goes, though,I agree that it should be changed to fit a more Catholic view:

This Child that you’ve delivered
Also delivered you

or something to that effect.

 

[benedictgal]

Mary’s deliverance(the immaculate conception) would not have come, without the birth of her son.

I don’t think the hymn is saying anything different.

Jim

Jim, I don’t know how well versed you are in Marian doctrine, but, this song clearly goes against Church teaching on the Blessed Mother. Perhaps you didn’t know that Mary received a singular grace from God that applied the merits of her Son’s Passion, Death and Resurrection at her Conception, that is why she is freed from the scourge of original sin.

Perhaps we have become so desenstitized to not be able to tell the difference between covert heresy and overt heresy. The reason that I am passionately against this song is because it waters down our faith. Even changing the words doesn’t amount to a hill of beans because the secondary issue is that Mary knew who her Son was. As I said earlier, the Archangel Gabriel told her that the child she was going to conceive was the Son of God. Now, Mary may not have completely understood the rammifications that all of this was to bring (hence, her pondering many things during Christ’s childhood), but, as far as the identity of Jesus, she fully knew that He is God’s Son and her Son. Furthermore, how could she not know what he could do if she asked him to intervene at Cana?

Think about it. It’s innocuous hymns like this that serve no purpose but to package dubious teachings in a pretty tune. Just remember what the Greeks did to Troy.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

benedictgal

Jim, I don’t know how well versed you are in Marian doctrine, but, this song clearly goes against Church teaching on the Blessed Mother. Perhaps you didn’t know that Mary received a singular grace from God that applied the merits of her Son’s Passion, Death and Resurrection at her Conception, that is why she is freed from the scourge of original sin.

I’m well versed in Marian doctrine. Mary’s salvation would not have come without Jesus, death and resurrection. God knew that Jesus would bring salvation to the world and Mary was freed from original sin at her conception, in anticipation to the future salvation that would come through her son. The song doesn’t deny this.

Perhaps we have become so desenstitized to not be able to tell the difference between covert heresy and overt heresy.

Maybe its that you see heresy where it doesn’t exist.

The reason that I am passionately against this song is because it waters down our faith.

Perhaps for you, but for others who are well grounded in the Catholic faith, its inspirational and devotional.

Even changing the words doesn’t amount to a hill of beans because the secondary issue is that Mary knew who her Son was.

Of course she knew who her son was. Do you think she knew she was born without original sin, at the moment of her conception? Don’t forget, the dogma of the Immaculate Conception was not made until 1854.

But again, when we sign the song, we are not questioning Mary’s knowledge of the event, but expressing awe in our contemplation of it.

As I said earlier, the Archangel Gabriel told her that the child she was going to conceive was the Son of God. Now, Mary may not have completely understood the rammifications that all of this was to bring (hence, her pondering many things during Christ’s childhood), but, as far as the identity of Jesus, she fully knew that He is God’s Son and her Son. Furthermore, how could she not know what he could do if she asked him to intervene at Cana?

Again, you’re missing the poetic expression of the song. How can we, 2000 years after the fact, be asking Mary if she knew all these things? We’re not. We’re expressing the awe, as a child does.

Think about it. It’s innocuous hymns like this that serve no purpose but to package dubious teachings in a pretty tune. Just remember what the Greeks did to Troy.

This is your take on the song, but not for a great many of others. I know a Catholic Priest who is well educated in Marian Doctrine, he’s a Lasalette, who used this song on his CD and I’ve heard him sing it live, at the Shrine of Our Lady of Lasalette. He doesn’t see the song as heretical, and neither do his superiors who approved his music ministry.

Jim

 

[benedictgal]

benedictgal

I’m well versed in Marian doctrine. Mary’s salvation would not have come without Jesus, death and resurrection. God knew that Jesus would bring salvation to the world and Mary was freed from original sin at her conception, in anticipation to the future salvation that would come through her son. The song doesn’t deny this.

Maybe its that you see heresy where it doesn’t exist.

Perhaps for you, but for others who are well grounded in the Catholic faith, its inspirational and devotional.

Of course she knew who her son was. Do you think she knew she was born without original sin, at the moment of her conception? Don’t forget, the dogma of the Immaculate Conception was not made until 1854.

But again, when we sign the song, we are not questioning Mary’s knowledge of the event, but expressing awe in our contemplation of it.

Again, you’re missing the poetic expression of the song. How can we, 2000 years after the fact, be asking Mary if she knew all these things? We’re not. We’re expressing the awe, as a child does.

This is your take on the song, but not for a great many of others. I know a Catholic Priest who is well educated in Marian Doctrine, he’s a Lasalette, who used this song on his CD and I’ve heard him sing it live, at the Shrine of Our Lady of Lasalette. He doesn’t see the song as heretical, and neither do his superiors who approved his music ministry.

Jim

Jim, if you were so grounded in Marian doctrine, you would see the errors of this song. Just because a priest uses it doesn’t necessarily make it appropriate. A lot of liturgical abuses are committed by priests who seem to think that creativity outweighs rubrics and norms, so your argument doesn’t hold much water. Poetic expression doesn’t trump doctrine, especially considering who the author is (someone who does not believe in Mairan doctrine as we do).

 

[Joysong]

I’m still wondering what the purpose of this thread is, for the OP merely stated, “What say you guys?”

The problem arises when the ‘guys’ say what they think, and if it doesn’t match the OP’s viewpoint, then the ‘guys’ are presumed to hold heretical opinions, and not to have a clue about Marian theology. :doh2: It was a ‘loaded’ question.

Assuming a minority do agree with the OP that the song, which is sung only one week during the year in very few parishes, and probably only as a solo by the choir, is capable of utterly destroying the faith as the ‘Greeks in Troy,’ I think not, in the wildest stretch of the imagination.

What is the proposed remedy for those who agree with the OP, other than to express their disapproval of the verses?

 

[Morningkill]

The song doesn’t deny this.

Jim, you are repeatedly missing the point - deliberately, I can only assume. The point is not that the song denies this aspect of Marian theology, but rather the fact it denies the fact that the deliverance occurs PRIOR to her birth. That’s the bottom line.

Also, what DOES the author (a Protestant) mean? Is it really appropriate for us to be singing a song by a Protestant which can be read as supporting a uniquely Protestant understanding of Mary and challenging the Catholic doctine?

Also - what do you mean by stating that the Dogma was only promulgated in 1854? I don’t understand your motive with that statement - we all know then the Dogma was promulgated. The belief is far, far, far older.

 

[Morningkill]

What is the proposed remedy for those who agree with the OP, other than to express their disapproval of the verses?

Do exactly what I did - go up to the master of music and tell him that it is inappropriate and when he says “I’m a Protestant, so I don’t know” tell him that he is very unfortunate and offer to catechise him so he can join the one true faith and then contact the pastor of the parish to tell him that the master of music is playing inappropriate songs which advance a heresy.

That works really well until the pastor says “Well, he’s very independently-minded - I can’t really control him.” After that, YMMV - but personally I took it as the final straw and changed parishes

 

[benedictgal]

I’m still wondering what the purpose of this thread is, for the OP merely stated, “What say you guys?”

The problem arises when the ‘guys’ say what they think, and if it doesn’t match the OP’s viewpoint, then the ‘guys’ are presumed to hold heretical opinions, and not to have a clue about Marian theology. :doh2:

Assuming a minority do agree with the OP that the song, which is sung only one week during the year in very few parishes, and probably only as a solo by the choir, is capable of utterly destroying the faith as the ‘Greeks in Troy,’ I think not, in the wildest stretch of the imagination.

What is the proposed remedy for those who agree with the OP, other than to express their disapproval?

Joysong, I hardly doubt that I am alone on this one. Perhaps what I will do is write to OCP and ask for an explanation as to why they placed this particular song in their hymnals, given the heretical nature of the lyrics.

The problem is that doctrinally deficient songs with pretty melodies like this start off as being “performed” once a year, and then more of the same starts creeping up. That’s what I meant by the Trojan Horse. What is worse is when children start singing this hymn without realizing that it goes against what the Church teaches about Mary.

I am somewhat bewildered by folks who say that their Catholic, yet seem to find nothing wrong with a song that goes against what the Church teaches about Mary. It is as though everyone’s spiritual sensitivities have gone uot the door and creativity and poetic license is seen as more important than fidelity to authentic church teaching. Some on this post claim to be grounded in Marian doctrine, yet, they support this hymn based on poetic license. Sorry, but Church dogma and doctrine trumps poetic license any day. Inasmuch as I do not like Hail Mary, Gentle Woman, it is doctrinally and dogmatically correct. I can’t say the same for Mary Did You Know.

 

[Joysong]

I am somewhat bewildered by folks who say that they’re Catholic, yet seem to find nothing wrong with a song that goes against what the Church teaches about Mary. It is as though everyone’s spiritual sensitivities have gone uot the door and creativity and poetic license is seen as more important than fidelity to authentic church teaching. Some on this post claim to be grounded in Marian doctrine, yet, they support this hymn based on poetic license.

I never said one way or another whether or not I agreed, as you will notice from my posts, nor will I make a statement here and now. It is not important what “I” think.

What I take offense to, is submitting a loaded question that is designed to lure people into discussion, only to condescendingly challenge their opinions when they reply. For instance …
“everyone’s spiritual sensitivities have gone out the door in favor of creativity.” As if everyone who disagrees with you is deaf and dumb, and perhaps not Catholic.

I am often lilfted up by JimR’s good sense when he points out the two great commandments. Our Lord does not expect us to come to Him through intellectual prowess and perfect understanding of all truths of our faith in intricate detail. He only asks that we accept His kingdom as a little child, in simple, loving trust which is of the heart, not the head.

That being said, and with more serious wars to win and work to be done, I wish you well in proving your point.

 

[benedictgal]

I never said one way or another whether or not I agreed, as you will notice from my posts, nor will I make a statement here and now. It is not important what “I” think.

What I take offense to, is submitting a loaded question that is designed to lure people into discussion, only to condescendingly challenge their opinions when they reply. For instance …
“everyone’s spiritual sensitivities have gone out the door in favor of creativity.” As if everyone who disagrees with you is deaf and dumb, and perhaps not Catholic.

I am often lilfted up by JimR’s good sense when he points out the two great commandments. Our Lord does not expect us to come to Him through intellectual prowess and perfect understanding of all truths of our faith in intricate detail. He only asks that we accept His kingdom as a little child, in simple, loving trust which is of the heart, not the head.

That being said, and with more serious wars to win and work to be done, I wish you well in proving your point.

Joysong, I think both you and Jim are seriously missing the point. Our Lord also said that if anyone leads any of his little ones astray, it is better that a millstone be tied around his neck and he be cast off into the sea. When children sing a dubious song like Mary Did You Know thinking it’s okay because it’s in the hymnal, those of us who know better have a repsonsiblity to point out the error, as Morningkill has pointed out.

You and Jim may not think much of this fight, but, we need to start reclaiming our beliefs as Catholics. And yes, I do find it very problamatic that people who claim to be Catholic seem to be immune to doctrinal heresies in song. That is a very serious symptom of a greater problem. Jim has just proven my point.

 

[Morningkill]

He only asks that we accept His kingdom as a little child, in simple, loving trust which is of the heart, not the head.

God asks for Love - Love is an act of the will, not what the romance-writers would have you believe. I love you, Joysong, and this is why I will fight what I see as your errors with every single fiber of my being.

Love is not nice, love is not a fluffy feeling. Love is being willing to go to war for what you know is right, even when it will hurt. That is the unfailing Catholic teaching.

 

[agapewolf]

I don’t think this song is in any OCP hymnal.

I also don’t think its a matter of poetic license vs church doctrine.

I think the fact that it is a literary device (the “did you know” question) shows that it isn’t necessarily against church doctrine. (changing the words of that one particular line as well)

I don’t like the song. I think it could be confusing, so I don’t put it in our repertoire at church. I do not however think its harmful for Catholics who are grounded in the faith to actually like the song.

It’s not about Catholics being immune to heresy. The ones here have proven they know the know the doctrine. They just interpret the literary device and meaning different. I think thats the crux of the argument here, and it is a subjective point then.

 

[Morningkill]

Saying “will soon deliver you” is not a literary device - it is a flat denial of the pre-birth deliverance of Mary from sin. Saying “Did you know?” is a literary device.

 

[agapewolf]

Saying “will soon deliver you” is not a literary device - it is a flat denial of the pre-birth deliverance of Mary from sin. Saying “Did you know?” is a literary device.

I know this quite well, which is why I mentioned apart from that …changing the words of that line.

 

[Morningkill]

Which I don’t think most parishes would do - and certainly haven’t in my experience. Come on - parishes play “Amazing Grace”!

My point would be, when there are so many lovely Marian songs which ARE Catholic and doctrinally good, why do we bother with some Protestant garbage which raises questions? It’s like saying that you can hammer a nail into a wall with a high-heeled shoe and a lot of care and attention.

You know what? I have a hammer right here . . .

 

[benedictgal]

I don’t think this song is in any OCP hymnal.

I also don’t think its a matter of poetic license vs church doctrine.

I think the fact that it is a literary device (the “did you know” question) shows that it isn’t necessarily against church doctrine. (changing the words of that one particular line as well)

I don’t like the song. I think it could be confusing, so I don’t put it in our repertoire at church. I do not however think its harmful for Catholics who are grounded in the faith to actually like the song.

It’s not about Catholics being immune to heresy. The ones here have proven they know the know the doctrine. They just interpret the literary device and meaning different. I think thats the crux of the argument here, and it is a subjective point then.

Agape, I have checked some of the OCP catalogues, and, it’s not there. I am curious as to how our music director got hold of it because the children’s choir sang it. Thanks for the correction. Although I’ll be going to the Table of Contents for each hymnal in OCP’s arsenal, I suspect that you may be right on this one.

Nonetheless, I have to agree with Morningkill. Poetic license is wrong when it contradicts with Catholic doctrine and dogma. Ditto for literary devices as what this song has done is totally distort the meaning.

 

[ac_claire]

Did the author assume that Mary didn’t know that her Son was the Son of God? It seems to just forget that the Archangel Gabriel had already told Mary just who her Son would be.
What say you guys?

My :twocents:, for what it’s worth:

The impression I get is the “did you know” phrase is just rhetorical; a figure of speech that sounds nice as a refrain w/ the other observations in the song.

I don’t think that theological exegesis is really appropriate here. It’s a song; the words are best understood as lyrics or poetry, not literal statements of faith. (But even if they were, I see nothing here that contradicts the catechism.) It’s only anti-Catholic if you choose to interpret it that way.

That being said, this is more of a secular song, albeit w/ a Christian subject and point of view. I don’t think it’s appropriate for mass.