Mary Ever Virgin

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I know many of the replies to protestants objections of this, but here are some of their replies to the Catholic refutations:

When you tell them that Jesus entrusted Mary to Johns care they say that would be appropriate in light of His earlier teaching on who His real mother and brothers are in which case they say James at that time was not His real brother since He did not believe and then when you say noone but Jesus was mentioned at the temple their response is that that is not surprising since the point of the story has nothing to do with his brothers, so it doesn’t need to be mentioned. What is your response to that?
 
I know many of the replies to protestants objections of this, but here are some of their replies to the Catholic refutations:

When you tell them that Jesus entrusted Mary to Johns care they say that would be appropriate in light of His earlier teaching on who His real mother and brothers are in which case they say James at that time was not His real brother since He did not believe and then when you say noone but Jesus was mentioned at the temple their response is that that is not surprising since the point of the story has nothing to do with his brothers, so it doesn’t need to be mentioned. What is your response to that?
catholic.com/library/Brethren_of_the_Lord.asp
 
I know many of the replies to protestants objections of this, but here are some of their replies to the Catholic refutations:

When you tell them that Jesus entrusted Mary to Johns care they say that would be appropriate in light of His earlier teaching on who His real mother and brothers are in which case they say James at that time was not His real brother since He did not believe and then when you say noone but Jesus was mentioned at the temple their response is that that is not surprising since the point of the story has nothing to do with his brothers, so it doesn’t need to be mentioned. What is your response to that?
I am always amazed when Protestants question the perpetual viginity of Mary especially when all the founding fathers of Protestantism believed in it. Even John Wesley who founded Methodism believed in Mary’s perpetual virginity.

Luther:
Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary’s virginal womb . . . This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that.
{Luther’s Works, eds. Jaroslav Pelikan (vols. 1-30) & Helmut T. Lehmann (vols. 31-55), St. Louis: Concordia Pub. House (vols. 1-30); Philadelphia: Fortress Press (vols. 31-55), 1955, v.22:23 / Sermons on John, chaps. 1-4 (1539) }

Christ . . . was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him . . . I am inclined to agree with those who declare that ‘brothers’ really mean ‘cousins’ here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers.
{Pelikan, ibid., v.22:214-15 / Sermons on John, chaps. 1-4 (1539) }

A new lie about me is being circulated. I am supposed to have preached and written that Mary, the mother of God, was not a virgin either before or after the birth of Christ . . .
{Pelikan, ibid.,v.45:199 / That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew (1523) }

Scripture does not say or indicate that she later lost her virginity . . .
When Matthew [1:25] says that Joseph did not know Mary carnally until she had brought forth her son, it does not follow that he knew her subsequently; on the contrary, it means that he never did know her . . . This babble . . . is without justification . . . he has neither noticed nor paid any attention to either Scripture or the common idiom.
{Pelikan, ibid.,v.45:206,212-3 / That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew (1523) }
Editor Jaroslav Pelikan (Lutheran) adds:

Luther . . . does not even consider the possibility that Mary might have had other children than Jesus. This is consistent with his lifelong acceptance of the idea of the perpetual virginity of Mary.
{Pelikan, ibid.,v.22:214-5}

“. . . she is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin. . . . God’s grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil. . . . God is with her, meaning that all she did or left undone is divine and the action of God in her. Moreover, God guarded and protected her from all that might be hurtful to her.”
Ref: Luther’s Works, American edition, vol. 43, p. 40, ed. H. Lehmann, Fortress, 1968

“. . . she is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God. . . . it is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God.”
Ref: Sermon on John 14. 16: Luther’s Works (St. Louis, ed. Jaroslav, Pelican, Concordia. vol. 24. p. 107)

“Christ our Savior was the real and natural fruit of Mary’s virginal womb. . . . This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that.”
(REf: On the Gospel of St. John: Luther’s Works, vol. 22. p. 23, ed. Jaroslav Pelican, Concordia, 1957)

Calvin:
Helvidius displayed excessive ignorance in concluding that Mary must have had many sons, because Christ’s ‘brothers’ are sometimes mentioned.
{Harmony of Matthew, Mark & Luke, sec. 39 (Geneva, 1562), vol. 2 / From Calvin’s Commentaries, tr. William Pringle, Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1949, p.215; on Matthew 13:55}

[On Matt 1:25:] The inference he [Helvidius] drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband . . . No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words . . . as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called ‘first-born’; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin . . . What took place afterwards the historian does not inform us . . . No man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation.
{Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 107}

Under the word ‘brethren’ the Hebrews include all cousins and other relations, whatever may be the degree of affinity.
{Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 283 / Commentary on John, (7:3) }
 
continued…

Zwingli:
He turns, in September 1522, to a lyrical defense of the perpetual virginity of the mother of Christ . . . To deny that Mary remained ‘inviolata’ before, during and after the birth of her Son, was to doubt the omnipotence of God . . . and it was right and profitable to repeat the angelic greeting - not prayer - ‘Hail Mary’ . . . God esteemed Mary above all creatures, including the saints and angels - it was her purity, innocence and invincible faith that mankind must follow. Prayer, however, must be . . . to God alone . . .
‘Fidei expositio,’ the last pamphlet from his pen . . . There is a special insistence upon the perpetual virginity of Mary.
{G. R. Potter, Zwingli, London: Cambridge Univ. Press, 1976, pp.88-9,395 / The Perpetual Virginity of Mary . . ., Sep. 17, 1522}

Zwingli had printed in 1524 a sermon on ‘Mary, ever virgin, mother of God.’
{Thurian, ibid., p.76}

I have never thought, still less taught, or declared publicly, anything concerning the subject of the ever Virgin Mary, Mother of our salvation, which could be considered dishonourable, impious, unworthy or evil . . . I believe with all my heart according to the word of holy gospel that this pure virgin bore for us the Son of God and that she remained, in the birth and after it, a pure and unsullied virgin, for eternity.
{Thurian, ibid., p.76 / same sermon}

Bullinger:
Bullinger (d. 1575) . . . defends Mary’s perpetual virginity . . . and inveighs against the false Christians who defraud her of her rightful praise: ‘In Mary everything is extraordinary and all the more glorious as it has sprung from pure faith and burning love of God.’ She is ‘the most unique and the noblest member’ of the Christian community . . .
‘The Virgin Mary . . . completely sanctified by the grace and blood of her only Son and abundantly endowed by the gift of the Holy Spirit and preferred to all . . . now lives happily with Christ in heaven and is called and remains ever-Virgin and Mother of God.’
{In Hilda Graef, Mary: A history of Doctrine and Devotion, combined ed. of vols. 1 & 2, London: Sheed & Ward, 1965, vol.2, pp.14-5}

John Wesley (Founder of Methodism):
The Blessed Virgin Mary, who, as well after as when she brought him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin.
{“Letter to a Roman Catholic” / In This Rock, Nov. 1990, p.25}
 
I know many of the replies to protestants objections of this, but here are some of their replies to the Catholic refutations:

When you tell them that Jesus entrusted Mary to Johns care they say that would be appropriate in light of His earlier teaching on who His real mother and brothers are in which case they say James at that time was not His real brother since He did not believe and then when you say noone but Jesus was mentioned at the temple their response is that that is not surprising since the point of the story has nothing to do with his brothers, so it doesn’t need to be mentioned. What is your response to that?
The obligation to care for their widowed mother would have had nothing to do with the purported brothers’ belief or lack thereof. In addition, if that were the reason for entrusting Mary to John’s care, wouldn’t she have returned to her own son’s home after he became a believer? But we know from Scripture that she remained with the Apostle John - even though he had his own mother to take care of, too, at least after his brother was killed.
 
they say James at that time was not His real brother since He did not believe and
I agree with the other poster, why would James have to be a believer in order to rightfully fulfill the role of taking his mother into his home? And if your Protestant friend is arguing that James wouldn’t become a believer until he saw Jesus rise again (Acts 1:14, 1 Cor 15:7), then your friend is saying that Jesus gave Mary to John because----my goodness----James wouldn’t believe for another 3 days!!
then when you say noone but Jesus was mentioned at the temple their response is that that is not surprising since the point of the story has nothing to do with his brothers, so it doesn’t need to be mentioned. What is your response to that?
They can speculate this, but the absence of the mention of siblings supports the Catholic position. Is your friend also arguing that every time Jesus’ “brothers” are mentioned that that IS the point of those passages?

There are too many Protestants, even today, who admit that the Bible is at least silent on whether the “brothers” are from Mary’s womb. So I wouldn’t spend too much time discoursing with people who reject the most logical conclusions of the above text in hope of some speculative loophole.
 
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