Mary everywhere, never Jesus?

[puzzleannie]

Maybe I need to clarify this, as I have gotten some hostile responses.

My point is, and what I’m really trying to wrap my head around the reason for, is that if I pass a place of worship, and outside is a statue of anyone, whoever, I would assume that that is the person who is most highly honored at that place of worship, in this case, Mary the mother of Jesus. It just seems to be odd that one would give her so high a place of honor to outsiders.

the responses have been intended to be helpful not hostile, if you detect hostility, sorry but that is not the intent. We do get rather tired of “outsiders” claiming we worship every figure of a saint who has a statue or icon in our churches, especially from someone like yourself who should know better.

since most of us cradle Catholics have never witnessed crowds of “everybody” kneeling to a statue in front of a church, we would all be interested in you directing us to all those churches where you have witnessed this phenomenon. By the way, Mary is not an “outsider” she is the Mother of the Lord and was present clearly on gospel testimony throughout his life, ministry, passion, resurrection and most assuredly at Pentecost.

What statue is on the public square of your town? yiour state capitol? In front of the courthouse or war memorial? Do you automatically assume when you drive through that town that its residents worship the person whom that statue represents? No? then I doubt most “outsiders” make that assumption about statues in front of a church.

 

[cecilia97]

Maybe I need to clarify this, as I have gotten some hostile responses.

As I stated in my original post, I know that Catholics do not worship Mary. I know that the Mass adores Jesus only. And I understand the points about Mary drawing people to Christ. The church I am speaking of bears one of Mary’s titles.

My point is, and what I’m really trying to wrap my head around the reason for, is that if I pass a place of worship, and outside is a statue of anyone, whoever, I would assume that that is the person who is most highly honored at that place of worship, in this case, Mary the mother of Jesus. It just seems to be odd that one would give her so high a place of honor to outsiders. It’s confusing to say the least. And yes, people have that said that to think that way is ignorant, but everyone who is not familiar with the Catholic faith is ignorant of it. To say that “Well, they just don’t know any better” is ignorant of my concern… My concern is for those who are not familiar and think it’s odd, and I’m looking for an explanation of why Mary is given this honor and asking why the Chruch may not consider it misleading to those who are not Christian.

And please stop bashing, because I believe that I am bringing up a question that many outside the faith will and who I have heard in the past ask. I am not asking for any other reason that honest seeking of the answer for myself so that I can explain it to others in the future.

Sarah,

You have a different perspective, is all. God and Jesus are depicted inside the church building, and Jesus is ACTUALLY in the church building…think of the “inner sanctum” or the Holy of Holies from the Old Testament…the most important things/people are inside, protected from the outside world. They are sacred and sometimes hidden.

The same idea can be seen in church processions…usually, the most “important” people come last. The priest comes after the altar boys, the bishop after the priest, the pope after the cardinals, etc.

Think of the church you’re passing as a series of tabernacles. Outside the building is just pretty stuff and landscaping. Inside the doors is the foyer with people talking, racks of literature, administrative, wordly stuff. Inside the next set of doors in the body of the church with people praying. Toward the heartof the church is the santuary with the altar. Behind the altar is the tabernacle with the Real Presence of Jesus Himself. It gets more sacred as you get further in.

In the Jerusalem Temple, the Ark was deep inside and few ever saw it…there weren’t pictures of it painted on the outside walls of the building.

 

[vacolonel]

I was received into full communion with the Church this Easter after a lifetime of being a Protestant. “I believe and profess all that the holy Catholic Church believes, teaches and proclaims to be revealed by God,” but I remain a neophyte in my understanding of the Church’s Marian doctrines and practices, and I will say that some (certainly not all) of the devotion that I see to Mary is discomfiting. The original poster’s questions about statuary doesn’t bother me at all. Two notions do, though, and though I’ve addressed them with my priest and in prayer, I would be interested in hearing your perspectives.
One is the notion that Mary’s intercession will yield an answer to a prayer that would not otherwise be forthcoming. This suggests that Mary somehow controls her Son and his dispensation of Grace.
The other is that some of the traditional Marian prayers (the Memorare and the Sub Tuum, for example), suggest that we expect Mary to answer our prayers directly, not merely intercede for us with her Son.
Any of your observations would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

 

[NewGuyInChurch]

There’s a parish about the same distance away from my house as my own parish, just in a different direction that has a large cemetery right beside the church. In the cemetery, there is a huge crucifix right there for all to see. We have a cross outside of our parish, albeit not a crucifix and I know of a couple others with these symbols as well. The thing is, I don’t see these things as being there for people to gawk at or as PR moves – they are there for specific reasons. We are more than happy to explain our beliefs to others, but I do not think that we need to move the statues and symbols around to please non-Catholics who most likely wouldn’t change their beliefs about us based on that anyway.

 

[Cat]

I’m sorry if I appeared to be one of the bashers. I personally don’t think any of the responses sounds like bashing so far, but that’s JMO.

I play piano at an Italian parish, St. Anthony’s of Padua.

Outside of the church, right on the path as you walk toward the church, is a statue of St. Anthony of Padua. This is because he is the patron saint of that church.

I don’t think that most Protestants would assume that a statue outside the church indicates who is worshipped inside the Church. I was evangelical Protestant for over 40 years, and I never thought that. I always assumed when I saw statues of people outside of Catholic churches that those were the people that the church was named after.

I think–and I don’t know of any gentle way to say this, so I’ll just come out and say it–you need to give non-Catholics more credit for intelligence.

Now I know from experience that there are Protestants who are on the warpath and will attack ANYTHING–they see a demon behind every bush. But these people are not typical Protestant Christians. They are extremists. As far as these people are concerned, ANY statue, even a statue of Jesus, is an idol and its presence means that people are idol worshippers.

If you go to certain Protestant sites in the U.S., you will see statutes of Protestant saints. One site that comes to mind is the JAARS Center in Waxhaw, North Carolina. This site is where the technical support work is done for Wycliffe Bible Translators. There is a garden in this place, and several tributes to the founder of Wycliffe, Cameron Townsend. I seem to remember a statue or bust or bronze plaque with his image. NO PROTESTANT except an extremist would ever assume that this place is a worship site for Townsend. Protestants know the difference between honoring someone and worshipping them.

Another such site is the Billy Graham Center in Wheaton, IL. This place is full of tributes to Rev. Graham, but again, no Protestant (except an extremist) would accuse the center of being a worship shrine for Rev. Graham.

Most Protestants have more smarts than this. Don’t worry so much about appearances. Believe, me, Protestants are more concerned with the people who go to that church and whether they live holy lives than they are with the decor on the church grounds. I’ll tell you what will make the biggest POSITIVE impression on Protestants–how many people from that Catholic Church are standing outside on the days of the various Pro-Life demonstrations? When Protestants drive by and see hundreds of Catholics standing silently with signs, praying the Rosary and singing hymns, while down the street, the Protestant church doesn’t have a soul standing outside–THIS will make a bigger impression on the Protestants than whose statue stands outside on the lawn.

Many new Protestant churches these days do not even look like “churches.” Often the first thing you see is a cafeteria or coffee shop, or a book store. Or you will see a school. But surely people do not assume that the church emphasizes food, coffee, books, or education more than the Lord Jesus.

Some churches have large signs on the lawn that say “Day Care Center” or “Bingo” or “Thrift Store.” Again, I don’t assume that these churches have forgotten about the Lord.

Like I said, most Protestants know better, and the few that don’t won’t be willing to listen to you anyway.

 

[kell0618]

The Catholic Church believes that Mary was ever virgin and the Mother of Jesus. As a Mother, she nurtured Jesus as a boy and was faithfully with him to the end. It is difficult for Catholics to understand why Protestant mothers would be troubled in honoring Mary, the greatest mother of them all who, as the second Eve, was obedient to the Lord, whereas Eve disobeyed God. As a loving Mother, she is asked to intercede for us when praying to Jesus. We know, as do you, that we must go to the Father through the Son per John 6 (vs. 30f). And Catholics certainly can pray to Jesus directly. But we do not hesitate to ask those who are close to Jesus to put in a good word. I would guess that this happens in every family when the children suspect that the father will say no, they go to the mother first. In fact, you, yourself will ask friends to pray for you or someone you know. How much greater is it to ask Mary, the Mother of Jesus, to intercede for us? We believe that the Catholic Church is a Covenant Family with God the Father, Jesus the Son, Mary our Mother and we His children. Regarding the statues, you will agree, I am certain, that they are beautiful reminders of our Lord and the Saints. I bet that you have family pictures in your house as a reminder of family and friends. (And what was that nativity scene I saw in front of your church last Christmas?)

Source

Read more here about Mary, from an ex-protestant perspective.

And furthermore, who cares what others say? If you are Catholic, get busy and get back to Church! Begin with a good examination of your conscience, followed by an overdue confession.

If everyone thought it was wrong to recognize a deceased loved one, the cemeteries wouldn’t have any headstones, would they?

 

[NotWorthy]

I agree with Kell. Why don’t you go to a Mass or two and see how much Marian Devotion is going on?

And that bit about the headstones? WOW!!! That makes a point!!!

 

[itsjustdave1988]

…if I pass a place of worship, and outside is a statue of anyone, whoever, I would assume that that is the person who is most highly honored at that place of worship, in this case, Mary the mother of Jesus. It just seems to be odd that one would give her so high a place of honor to outsiders.

In my city, there’s a big statue of Gen. William Jackson Palmer in the downtown area. One might be tempted to presume that the people of this city must place the highest honor to this guy, since his is the biggest statue in town. We don’t. Most citizens barely consider who Gen. Palmer was. Thus, I think that operating on such a presumption is flawed, and that worrying about the erroneous “impressions” others migh have about us is not an important consideration in the life of a parish.

At my parish, for example, the only statue outside the parish is that of a weeping Rachel (Jeremiah 31:15-17). We also have a very tall spire (cross), we have the ten commandments and the beatitudes. But the ony person in statue form is Rachel. One might presume that my parish places the highest honor upon Rachel. But we really can’t keep everyone from making such erroneous presumptions, can we? I suppose I would ask those outside to come inside and do more than make presumptions, but ask questions.

 

[NotWorthy]

At the risk of repeating myself,

The Catholic Church is like stained glass windows. They are both so much more beautiful when looking at them from the inside than from the outside!!!

 

[clmowry]

As you enter St. Clare’s you’ll see a sanctuary with the tabernacle. It also contains two kneelers and two enches.

There are also statues if Mary, St. Clare and St. Francis with no knellers and no benches facing them.

Then of course the whole Church faces the 30 or so foot replica of the San Domiono Cross.

So if we use seating Capacty as a masure: Christ 1,012 (give or take) Saints 0.

Chuck

 

[mark_a]

As I stated in my original post, I know that Catholics do not worship Mary. I know that the Mass adores Jesus only. And I understand the points about Mary drawing people to Christ. The church I am speaking of bears one of Mary’s titles.

I sometimes wonder if its a reaction to the anti-Mary crowd.

 

[Eileen_T]

I sometimes wonder if its a reaction to the anti-Mary crowd.

I agree. I have heard people, especially older ones, who have a deep devotion to Mary that is almost excessive. It’s as if they are trying to make up for those who do not honor the Mother of God and who don’t called her “Blessed”.

BTW, if a foreigner was looking for a Catholic Church and saw one with a statue of Mary in front of it, they would know they were in the place.

I have friends look for a CC in a country in Asia and no-one could answer their question until they made the Sign of the Cross and got pointed in the right direction. Some things are universal

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Maybe I need to clarify this, as I have gotten some hostile responses.

As I stated in my original post, I know that Catholics do not worship Mary. I know that the Mass adores Jesus only. And I understand the points about Mary drawing people to Christ. The church I am speaking of bears one of Mary’s titles.

My point is, and what I’m really trying to wrap my head around the reason for, is that if I pass a place of worship, and outside is a statue of anyone, whoever, I would assume that that is the person who is most highly honored at that place of worship, in this case, Mary the mother of Jesus. It just seems to be odd that one would give her so high a place of honor to outsiders. It’s confusing to say the least. And yes, people have that said that to think that way is ignorant, but everyone who is not familiar with the Catholic faith is ignorant of it. To say that “Well, they just don’t know any better” is ignorant of my concern… My concern is for those who are not familiar and think it’s odd, and I’m looking for an explanation of why Mary is given this honor and asking why the Chruch may not consider it misleading to those who are not Christian.

And please stop bashing, because I believe that I am bringing up a question that many outside the faith will and who I have heard in the past ask. I am not asking for any other reason that honest seeking of the answer for myself so that I can explain it to others in the future.

Well as a protestant I did appreciate your post. You did state what you believed then posted the question.

Everyone may think they were not hostile but it sure reads that way. Maybe because it was said oh you dont understand and statements from catholics about what protestants believe. SEEMS hostile. Also there was little discussion just oh forget the protestants if they cant figure it out then too bad and btw they have pics of missionaries in their church which is not the correct answer to the question. ( to flip it back to the questioner)

Anyway I have read what was said and let go the defensive mood. I do take that catholics do worship Jesus but Im sorry but it is a bone of contention.
So when protestant sees a statue of Mary outside or inside the door, it just underlines a prevailing stereotype that is there. Then when Mary is included in praying for anyone its underlined.

Should catholic churches stop? having statues praying to Mary? probably not, perhaps emphasising Jesus would be a answer but not in a defensive way. Just talking about Jesus would do it, if one wanted to indicate to a protestant that catholilcs worshipped Jesus.

Then the protestant would go away saying hmmm they spoke about Jesus not Mary, that would get one thinking enough to ask questions and get accurate info.

my 2cents

 

[maryj]

My church, Immaculate conception, also has a statue of Saint Joseph. Oh boy, are we worshipping St. Joseph now too, I didn’t get the memo Sorry couldn’t help myself.

 

[Linkowski]

And what are those references to Mary? Are they Mary, Forgive us? Are they Mary, Save us?

No, they are simply Mary, pray for us. Or “we remember Mary and all the saints”, including St. Peter and St. Paul, etc.

It seems that it is a little bit more than “pray for us”.

Immaculate Conception, Mary, my Mother.
Live in me. Act in me. Speak in and through me.
Think your thoughts in my mind. Love, through my heart.
Give me your dispositions and feelings.
Teach, lead and guide me to Jesus.
Correct, enlighten and expand my thoughts and behavior.
Possess my soul. Take over my entire personality and life.
Replace it with yourself.
Incline me to constant adoration and thanksgiving.
Pray in me and through me.
Let me live in you and keep me in this union always.
– Pope John Paul II

 

[valient_Lucy]

I am a cradle Catholic, but never practicing… Now I am thinking of returning to the Church.

One thing that has always bothered me about Catholicism is that everytime I would see a Catholic church, there’s this statue of Mary, with everyone kneeling in front of her, but nowhere to be found outside is the person who is actually worshipped inside. I would take a guess that it’s because Mary is considered the mother of all believers, but it still borders on something more than adoration. At least, it seems to. I would think it would be more appropriate to have a cross outside, or even a crucifixiation scene with both Mary and Jesus in it.

Just for clarification, I know that Catholics don’t worship Mary, I’m just saying from an outsider’s perspective it gives the wrong impression… Thoughts?

In my parish, there is a huge statue of the Sacred Heart of Jesus in front of the building.

 

[VociMike]

It seems that it is a little bit more than “pray for us”.

Immaculate Conception, Mary, my Mother.
Live in me. Act in me. Speak in and through me.
Think your thoughts in my mind. Love, through my heart.
Give me your dispositions and feelings.
Teach, lead and guide me to Jesus.
Correct, enlighten and expand my thoughts and behavior.
Possess my soul. Take over my entire personality and life.
Replace it with yourself.
Incline me to constant adoration and thanksgiving.
Pray in me and through me.
Let me live in you and keep me in this union always.
– Pope John Paul II

The discussion was about the Mass. What you have quoted, if even authentic, is not a part of the Mass. Which only proves the point that even you concede that the summit of Catholic worship is about Jesus, not Mary. Thus your attempt to move the goalposts.

 

[Stillkickin]

Sarah,

I am not an eloquent person, but I will do my best to explain it as I understand it. The reason Catholics hold Mary in such high esteem is that she isthe Mother of Our Lord and Savior. If Mary had said “no” instead of “yes” to God, where would we be. She is considered the New Eve. Where Eve did not trust in God and ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge, Mary did trust in God and bore Jesus. Mary was with Jesus throughout all f his ministry and was there when he dies, there when he appeared to the Apostles, etc. Mary is very special, so we as Catholics consider her the number one saint - not on par wth Jesus who we worship, but held in higher esteem than any other human that ever lived.
One speaker that has inspired me greatly is Father John Corapi, who has some wonderful talks about Mary - I would recommend them. And Father Corapi has said this many times, and I never get tired of it, “if she’s good enough for Jesus, she’s good enough for me!”

Yours, in Christ,

Steve

 

[Linkowski]

It seems that it is a little bit more than “pray for us”.

Immaculate Conception, Mary, my Mother.
Live in me. Act in me. Speak in and through me.
Think your thoughts in my mind. Love, through my heart.
Give me your dispositions and feelings.
Teach, lead and guide me to Jesus.
Correct, enlighten and expand my thoughts and behavior.
Possess my soul. Take over my entire personality and life.
Replace it with yourself.
Incline me to constant adoration and thanksgiving.
Pray in me and through me.
Let me live in you and keep me in this union always.
– Pope John Paul II

Sorry - I was responding to a post. By the way, I got this from someone on this forum. Thanks.

Oops, I forgot to mention as well that this thread is named “Mary Everywhere, never Jesus?”

 

[NotWorthy]

It seems that it is a little bit more than “pray for us”.

Immaculate Conception, Mary, my Mother.
Live in me. Act in me. Speak in and through me.
Think your thoughts in my mind. Love, through my heart.
Give me your dispositions and feelings.
Teach, lead and guide me to Jesus.
Correct, enlighten and expand my thoughts and behavior.
Possess my soul. Take over my entire personality and life.
Replace it with yourself.
Incline me to constant adoration and thanksgiving.
Pray in me and through me.
Let me live in you and keep me in this union always.
– Pope John Paul II

I’m sorry, and where is that in the Mass?
The reason for my post is when Catholics mention Mary during their Worship Service (the Mass).

During the Confietor (I confess to almighty God…), one of the lines is, “And I ask Mary and all the saints to pray for us to the Lord our God”.

During the end of the Eucharistic Prayers, we ask all the saints in Heaven to remember us in their prayers. Sometimes Mary is mentioned, sometimes she’s not. Often times when she’s mentioned, we include a number of other saints.

During the Nicene Creed, “We believe in His Son, Jesus Christ… born of the Virgin Mary…”.

That’s about the only three times that Mary is mentioned in any of the Masses I go to.

If I’m at a daily Mass, and it’s one of the Feast days of Mary, we may say a “Hail Mary” one time during the petitions.

That’s it!

Meanwhile, the priest mentions the name of Jesus so many times, I get a crick in my neck from bowing my head so often!

Oh well, I just “offer it up” for Him!!!