Mary for our salvation?

[blackfish152]

Fiat:

The whole point of hyperbole is to extend beyond what is literal.Fiat

yes indeed, but What I meant is that should hyperbole go into areas that seem theologically incorrect?

what about saying this simply for the purpose of hyperbole, for effect:

O mary, I seek thy intercession, for you are like a God to me ?

Hyperbole= to the effect that we say she is granting graces to us through her intercession (TRUE) (Many of which I have received, by the Grace of God), she is almost akin to God.

however, We know that this is theologically speaking and literally not true as a matter of fact, that she is not God.

So is it still ok to say this one liner that I made, as a prayer? as it contains hyperbole out of love, but never the less is theologically wrong.

Can anyone explain to this concept of mary appeasing Christ, which even Leo XIII,a devoted marian pope, was going on about ?

 

[sara888]

**One common misconception of Catholics is that we worship Mary. We do NOT worship Mary. However, we DO honor Mary. She is God’s greatest creation. Remember, only God and Mary can claim Jesus as their son. Here’s some verses to explain why we honor Mary as we do.

As early in the Bible as Genesis Mary is prefigured:
“I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel.” Genesis 3:15

God speaks these words to the serpent in the Garden, showing that a woman would come that would bring forth a child to strike at the head of the devil.

"When the wine ran short, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.” And Jesus said to her, “Woman, how does your concern affect me? My hour has not yet come.” His mother said to the servers, “Do whatever he tells you.” John 2:3-5

Jesus addresses his mother as “Woman”, not out of disrespect, but to show that she is the “woman” of Genesis 3:15. We see that the ministry of Jesus begins at the request of Mary. She gently asks her Son, and he does not say no. Mary is always telling us to do whatever Christ asks of us.

She is predicted as mother of the Messiah in the Old Testament:
“The virgin shall be with child, and bear a son, and shall name him Immanuel.” Isaiah 7:14

The first chapter of the Gospel of Luke talks about the Annunciation and the Visitation.
“Hail, full of grace! The Lord is with you.” Luke 1:28The first chapter of the Gospel of Luke talks about the Annunciation and the Visitation.
“Hail, full of grace! The Lord is with you.” Luke 1:28

Notice how the archangel Gabriel’s greeting is the beginning of the Hail Mary. Our belief that Mary was without sin, original or actual, is supported by the angel calling her “full of grace”. Sin is the loss of grace; one who is full of grace has no sin.

“Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.” Luke 1:30

“Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word.” Luke 1:38

This is what Elizabeth says when Mary comes to visit her:
“Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled.” Luke 1:42-25 **

Sara

 

[DavidB]

To David and Gene C.

Where on this thread has anyone ever placed the Mother of God before Christ.?

The main problem with criticism of Catholic devotion to Mary is the basic Protestant mindset. Because Catholics venerate Mary, non-Catholics assume that this devotion must take the place of proper devotion to the Lord Jesus. They see the whole question in terms of either/or when it is really both.“You see,” the critic finishes with a flourish, "your famous Evangelical leader says that it is not Jesus but the Bible that is his ‘one comfort,’ his ‘true guide,’ and ‘God’s best and richest gift to mankind.’ It just goes to show that Evangelicals worship the Bible and not the Lord."

Of course, this is a ridiculous distortion of the Evangelical view, but the extended analogy may help Protestants understand how Catholics feel when Protestants make similarly inaccurate charges about the Catholic devotion to Mary.

In the face of such charges Catholics reply, "Are you serious? How can you possibly make such a fundamental mistake about what we believe? We admit that some Catholics may overemphasize Mary, just like some Evangelicals may take extreme views on the Bible. Dwight Longnecker.

Sara

Sara,

I explained it in post # 90. To me, this isn’t about devotion to Mary. To me, this prayer is saying Jesus is too angry to be approached, so please do it for me Mary, “appease” Jesus and then obtain for me forgiveness for my sins. This is a wrong idea of Jesus and deliberately pushes Jesus into the distance, unapproachable, and elevates Mary as the approachable one who can calm her angry Son down on our behalf. That, in my book and in scripture, is replacing Jesus with Mary.

David

David

 

[sara888]

**

Q: Why do Catholics pray to saints?

A: Well first, it isn’t just Catholics. It is all of the historic groups of Christians (Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Armenians, Copts, etc.) except for Protestants. Asking the saints for their intercession is a basic part of all of historic Christianity, which brings us to the answer for why Christians pray to saints: In order to ask them to pray to God and Christ for us.

Q: Why not pray directly to Jesus?

A: One should pray directly to Jesus. Praying to Jesus is absolutely indispensable to the Christian’s prayer life. However, asking others to pray with one is entirely appropriate and beneficial. **The Apostle Paul set us an example of this by repeatedly asking for others to pray on his behalf. **
Consider the following verses where Paul requests that people pray for him, exhorts people to pray for him, and even assumes people will be praying for him:

“I appeal to you, brethren, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God on my behalf” (Romans 15:30).
“You also must help us by prayer, so that many will give thanks on our behalf for the blessing granted us in answer to many prayers” (2 Corinthians 1:11).
“Pray at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints, the saints, and also for me, that utterance may be given me in opening my mouth boldly to proclaim the mystery of the gospel, for which I am an ambassador in chains; that I may declare it boldly, as I ought to speak” (Ephesians 6:18-20).
“Yes, and I shall rejoice. For I know that through your prayers and the help of the Spirit of Jesus Christ this will turn out for my deliverance” (Philippians 1:19).

“Continue steadfastly in prayer, being watchful in it with thanksgiving; and pray for us also, that God may open to us a door for the word, to declare the mystery of Christ, on account of which I am in prison, that I may make it clear, as I ought to speak” (Colossians 4:2-4).
“Brethren, pray for us” (1 Thessalonians 5:25). **

David what was Paul saying above .?
Sara

 

[CARose]

You know, in reading some of the posts above I am struck by something my mom told me when I was a kid. I’ve always remembered it and I think it may be pertinent here.

I’m the oldest of 6 kids, so with each kid there were more children around needing mom’s love and care. At some point there must have been some degree of jealousy or feeling left out. Anyways, my mom explained that Mom’s aren’t given a limited supply of Love. Rather, the heart of a mom grows with each kid she has so that there is always enough Love to go around.

I think the same applies for us kids. The more people that are brought into our lives to love, the more our hearts grow to supply that love. We don’t have a limited amount of love which is meant to be held in reserve for Christ. Rather, we are called to see Christ in all humanity, and to share Christ’s love with all those we encounter. This includes our dearly deceased family and friends who, God willing, are alive in Christ. Our hearts grow in better imitation of Christ when we continue to make room for them in our abundant love. And Loving Mary is another way of growing in our Christlike love. Love of persons, other souls, never detracts from Christ. Love of things, yes, but not LOVE, the pure love of a child for their mother, there is no better love than the love of an innocent seeking comfort in their mothers arms.

May God Bless you and love you,

CARose

 

[Joseph_Bilodeau]

blackfish152:

…Are you saying then, that the hyperbole is not literal, and the prayer is simply exagerated to make a point…

Correct, although it might be better to say that it is mostly not literal. As has been pointed out, the Old Testament discourse between Abraham and God concerning Sodom and Gomorrah (also the story of Jonah, and others) does indicate that it is not contrary to a Christian understanding of God to recognize that He does have a righteous anger, and that the prayers of a righteous man have great power (James 5:16), even to the extent of prevailing on God to change His course of action. If so for a righteous man understood in the generic sense, then certainly so for the most righteous woman in existence.

But just as God’s Love and Mercy are His principal attributes, not His wrath, so too this line in the prayer under discussion should be understood to refer literally to Mary’s prayers effecting an appeasement of God’s wrath in completely subordinate sense to the hyperbolic sense in which this is understood to be an expresion of trust and confidence. I agree that to do otherwise would paint a grossly distorted picture of God. That’s why we don’t do that.

 

[sara888]

Explain what Paul mean’s, who is he asking to pray for him.???

David, I am just curious to what you feel Paul is saying and what he is asking us Christians to do.?

**
If a Catholic puts Mary before God then this is Heresy!**

Sara

 

[DavidB]

Explain what Paul mean’s, who is he asking to pray for him.???

David, I am just curious to what you feel Paul is saying and what he is asking us Christians to do.?

If a Catholic puts Mary before God then this is Heresy!

Sara

Sara,

I certainly encourage and practice intercessory prayer for one another. That is not the issue I’m objecting to. I’m not even objecting to asking Mary to pray for you - that can be an argument for a different day perhaps

But nothing in Paul’s request said, “please pray to Jesus for me, because I’m too afraid to approach Him myself. He’s so angry all the time, perhaps He likes you better and therefore will listen to the request because it comes from you. He certainly won’t listen to me, I’m too much a sinner.” That’s what the original prayer in question is doing and saying and that IS a wrong view of Jesus.

David

 

[jhardee]

Dan-Man916:

That prayer will fall on deaf ears to evangelicals because that prayer requires an understanding of the theology behind the COmmunion of Saints and the Body of Christ.

But the basis for the petition in this prayer can be found in several biblical verses:

1 Kings 2: 19: *"*So Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, and the king stood up to meet her and paid her homage. Then he sat down upon his throne, and a throne was provided for the king’s mother, who sat at his right hand. ‘There is one small favor I would ask of you,’ she said. ‘Do not refuse me.’ ‘Ask it, my mother,’ the king said to her, ‘for I will not refuse you.’

John 2:3 When the wine was gone, Jesus’ mother said to him, “They have no more wine.”

We see here that the Mother of the King is called the Queen Mother. Because Jesus honored his Father and Mother perfectly, he never refused a request from either of them.

So we see that when the Mother of the King asks the King for something, any favor, that the King, Jesus, never refuses her. In fact, because the Communion of Saints is the Body of Christ, they are mystically united to Jesus, so that all prayers through the Saints are prayers through the Body to the head.

Therefore, because Mary had such a pre-eminent role in the Body of Christ as Mother of the King, and the Body is mystically united to the head, by saying that we can rely on Mary is implicitly saying that we rely on Jesus’ perfect Kingship and His perfect following of the law in honoring His Mother by honoring her request ebcause as we know, God desires that all men be saved.

But without the understanding of the relationship of the Saints to the Body of Christ and the real unity there, it will not be possible to reconcile this prayer. Intercessory Prayer to any Saint is a prayer direct directly to Christ because of the mystical nature of the Communion of Saints to the Body of Christ, which is a real union, not a symbolic one.

Does that make any sense?

On the third day a wedding took place at Cana in Galilee. Jesus’ mother was there, 2and Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding. 3When the wine was gone, Jesus’ mother said to him, “They have no more wine.”
4"Dear woman, why do you involve me?" Jesus replied, “My time has not yet come.”

5His mother said to the servants, "Do whatever he tells you.

See the fourth verse ,

Mary is to be honored, and that is it . She is not the mother of GOD in that sense. If she is the mother of GOD that means she is part of the GODHEAD.

John 1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2The same was in the beginning with God.

3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

 

[Genesis315]

jhardee:

On the third day a wedding took place at Cana in Galilee. Jesus’ mother was there, 2and Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding. 3When the wine was gone, Jesus’ mother said to him, “They have no more wine.”
4"Dear woman, why do you involve me?" Jesus replied, “My time has not yet come.”

5His mother said to the servants, "Do whatever he tells you.

See the fourth verse ,

Yep. I see Mary intereceding with Jesus on behalf of the wedding guests. He performed His first miracle even though it wasn’t supposed to be His time.

Mary is to be honored, and that is it . She is not the mother of GOD in that sense. If she is the mother of GOD that means she is part of the GODHEAD.

That’s not what it means at all. What it does mean is if you do not call her the Mother of God than you are a disciple of Nestorius and do not believe Jesus is fully God and fully man.

 

[CARose]

jhardee:

Mary is to be honored, and that is it . She is not the mother of GOD in that sense. If she is the mother of GOD that means she is part of the GODHEAD.

Oh my goodness no. Mary is not a part of the Godhead. God, One Divine Nature, Three Divine Persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. That’s all there is to God. Mary is a creature. But as a creature, she was reserved a special place in human history. She was destined to become the tabernacle of the coming of Our Lord Jesus Christ. Her womb held God, in the person of Jesus Christ.

In the old testament, it makes it quite clear that the tabernacle cannot be touched by sin. God is the opposite of sin, he is absolutely incompatible with sin. Therefore, it was necessary that the woman who would bear the Son of God would need to be specially prepared for such a mission. And God saved her before her conception so that she alone was conceived without the blemish of original sin, so that she might be worthy of the position to be granted her alone.

Christ, was one person, two natures, one human, the other divine. These two natures came together in one fully integrated person. The person of Christ was born of a woman. This woman was Mary. As the man that he was, Christ had a mother. As a man, brought to earth that he might show mankind the path to salvation, Christ gave honor to his mother, in accord with the 10 commandments.

Mary is Christ’s mother. Christ is God. Therefore, Mary is the Mother of God.

Mary, however is not the mother of God the Father, nor is she the mother of the Holy Spirit. She is not the mother of the Divine Nature of the Godhead. She is the mother of the person Jesus Christ who was both divine and human.

This is the Catholic belief as pertains to Mary being the Mother of God.

God Bless,

CARose

 

[Dan-Man916]

jhardee,

*She is not the mother of GOD in that sense. If she is the mother of GOD that means she is part of the GODHEAD.
*
Being the Mother of God does not mean she is deity.
To deny Mary as the Mother of God is to deny the Incarnation, that Jesus is fully Human and fully Divine in Hypostatic union.

The title of Theotokos affirms the Christological truth of the Incarnation. You statement has just proclaimed a heresy condemned in the 5th century by the Nestorians.

 

[sara888]

****David,

No one says to the Mother of God, please pray to Jesus for me, we ask her to pray for us**** and help us be better followers of Christ. If I saw a brother or sister in Christ walking away from faith I would pray for them and ask everyone else to Pray to God for them. We do the same when we call upon the Virgin Mary.

You are not discerning here.

God is not a vengeful God , We dont call upon Mary because we angered the Lord. Thats bizzare. It lacks logic.!

So what Paul is saying you do agree upon, and you agree its ok to ask for intercession to the Mother of God. You confuse me as to what you are discerning here.

Sara

 

[sara888]

SIZE=2]Pray at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints, the saints, and also for me, that utterance may be given me in opening my mouth boldly to proclaim the mystery of the gospel, for which I am an ambassador in chains;

David, that is exactly what he is asking his brothers in Christ to do for him . He is asking his brethen to pray for him to the Lord Our God.

He goes to God for prayer, but he also Pleads for his followers and his brethen to pray for him.

Sara

 

[savrx]

DavidB:

Doesn’t it bother you that this prayer characterizes Jesus as One who has to be “appeased”? Meaning that Mary needs to calm Jesus down, soothe his anger, pacify his antagonism in order for Mary to obtain from Him forgiveness for your sins? Cause that’s exactly what it’s saying! That’s the reason for my strong and repeated objections here. It portrays an incorrect picture of Jesus.

Your problem isn’t the prayer David, it is the fact that Catholics who properly understand this prayer in the context of their Faith are NOT going around daily telling people they need to be saved by Mary. They understand this within the theology of the Communion of Saints, which you obviously do not.

I can understand your initial reaction, I really can. However several knowledgeable Catholics have laid out for your OUR proper understanding of it. Yet you persist in trying to tell us exactly what we believe.

It also contradicts scripture . . . read 1 John 3:1 “My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for[the sins of the whole world.”

No sir, it contradicts YOUR view of Scripture. It bothers me not one iota if Catholic doctrine differs from DavidB’s theology.

You see, scripture tells us that Jesus alone is waiting to speak to the Father in our defense, not Mary.

So being born again in Christ, do you yourself sir partake of Christ’s qualities (albeit in degrees limited by your particular process of sanctification), including that of intercessor? If you say no, then you simply disagree with Catholic theology. Get over it.

This prayer your supporting lies about Jesus needing to be appeased, when He IS the appeaser!! This prayer is attempting to put Mary in place of Jesus - which is wrong.

I love people who have no knowledge whatsoever of Catholic theology in general, much less specifics like latria, dulia and hyper-dulia telling us that we don’t know our own Faith. LOL

Jesus is faithful and loving and approachable, contrary to this prayer’s portrayal of Him - 1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness

."
Exactly. And in John 20:23 the RISEN Jesus appears to the apostles and explicitly tells them that “If YOU forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if YOU retain the sins of any, they are retained.” So again I will say (as many many other already have) that any quality an apostle or saint has, such as intercessory powers with God, the ability to forgive/retain sins, etc is directly and explicitly DERIVED from Christ himself. It is not THEIR own ability which we see in these things, but Christs. I can say it no clearer, as Scripture does it just fine.

If holding my beliefs makes me a “fundamentalist” in your view, then I wear the label proudly. For indeed I am quite incapable of accepting this so-called theology which allows you to rationalize replacing Jesus with Mary and then feeling superior for it.

Then that is your own issue sir, as are all matters of salvation. But do not dare use your weak strawman argument of accusing US of replacing Jesus with anyone, Mary included or excluded. You are the one who is improperly interpreting things he does not understand.

Your problem is that you can’t fathom your own ignorance in these matters. Notice I did not call you ignorant (lest this be mistaken as a personal attack), but rather your arguments AGAINST our understanding fail to even deal with the real issues.

Now you are free to disagree with those issues all you want. But when you continue to promulgate lies about what WE believe, then you sin by “bearing false witness against your neighbors”. We certainly do not take the liberty of telling everyone misinformation about your Faith sir, and I suspect everyone else here who is Catholic would appreciate a like-minded approach from you.

Pax,
Peter
[/quote]

 

[blackfish152]

THis is for the beneit of those who are not entirely clear on catholic teaching. Because I have seen a few errors concerning the theotokos mentioned.

Maternal Mediation of Mary.

Mary acts in being able to obtain the disposition for us to convert back to her son such that he can receive the grace he offers from his sacred heart.
This is different from the priestly mediation of Christ, to which Mary is always subordinate. It does not complement the mediation of Christ, nor is it an extension of it.

Mary must not be represented in a vertical hierarchy, as a second mediator who interposes herself, between Christ and us, to extend the mediation of Christ between Humans and God the Father. (Lumen Gentium 60= “Marys Function in no way obscures the unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows it power”)

Christ is the Head and is in direct contact with ALL the members of his Body, and the Virgin is the first member of that body, she does not however separate the others from Christ. We cannot suppose that the divine graces, flowing from Christ, (John7.38) MUST come through Mary. All Grace flows directly from the fullness of grace possessed by Christ. This is called capital Grace, that is the grace from the Head, who gives it to his members.

Thus the image of the neck previously mentioned in this forums -is absurd, and confusing! She is the 1st member of Church, but in the mystical body she is not the neck, which separates the head from other mediators!

Christ sanctifies us, through his priestly mediation, by virtue of his humanity and divinity.

Mary does not act on the same level as Christ, who brings salvation and gives us grace. (Lumen Gentium 62- No Creature could ever be counted along with the incarnate Word.)

How to Understand the Virgin Mary. Jacques Bur. 1994
Nihil obstat = Fr A Cowan
Imprimatur = Monsignor Ralph Brown VG.

 

[sara888]

**SAVRX,

Absolutlely brilliant, May God bless you and May his face shine upon you.

Bravo. ! Well said.

Sara**

 

[blackfish152]

"Appeasing"

Joseph, and then to all,

The prayer is …mostly not literal. The righteous can get God to change His course of action.

ok.

But just as God’s Love and Mercy are His principal attributes not His wrath,

Thankfully.

So too this line in the prayer under discussion should be understood to refer

literally : Mary’s prayers effecting an appeasement of God’s wrath in completely subordinate sense to the hyperbolic sense in which this is understood to be an expresion of trust and confidence.

Do you mean this the other way around???

That Literally— it is an expression of trust and confidence

and in hyperbole speak… she can efface an appeasement

I humbly ask you to look at my post above-- # 100, I really respect your well considered and insightful comments

I agree that to do otherwise would paint a grossly distorted picture of God.

That’s why we don’t do that.

I thought thats what the problem is, the hyperbole which paints a distortion

ps Gone on holidays…cant wait to check this on sunday.

 

[Joseph_Bilodeau]

blackfish152:

…Do you mean this the other way around???

That Literally— it is an expression of trust and confidence

and in hyperbole speak… she can efface an appeasement…

I mean that the literary form is hyperbolic, and should taken as such, not unlike the lover who woos his sweetheart with "I’ll climb the highest mountain for you." This should not be taken as statement of serious intent to scale Everest. In the same way, this line in the prayer should not be taken as a serious statement about how we view Christ, but as a declaration of love for and trust in Mary, exaggerated for emphasis. This is the principal meaning of this statement.

That being said, Scripture and Sacred Tradition does speak to us such that we recognize that the wrath of God, while not His principal attribute, is nonetheless not a foreign concept to Christian thought. Likewise, Scripture and Sacred Tradition teaches us that prayer, especially the prayer of one close to God is not an insignificant factor in how God in turn relates to us, and that Mary shares the closest relationship with God of any man or woman who ever existed. Therefore, if any man’s or woman’s prayers may be especially dear to God such that they might persuade Him to change His intended course of action, Mary’s might. This is the subordinate understanding of this statement. I aplolgize if I was not sufficiently clear before.

blackfish152:

…I thought thats what the problem is, the hyperbole which paints a distortion…

My entire point is that this does **not **paint any distortion for us who understand how these sorts of traditional prayers go. We “speak the language”, as it were. That’s probably a pretty good metaphor for this. Those who do not “speak the language” probably will not want to use these prayer forms in their own prayer lives and are under no obligation to do so, but it is extremely annoying when people who do not speak the language accuse us who do speak it of doing something that we know we are not!

It is not unlike a non-Christian accusing any Christian of being a polytheist, saying that since the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are three distinct persons, they must be three separate gods, and insisting when answered that the Trinity constitutes one God that Christians who say they believe this are wrong, and even espressing pride in his inability to speak the Trinitarian language!

 

[DavidB]

David,

No one says to the Mother of God, please pray to Jesus for me, we ask her to pray for us and help us be better followers of Christ. If I saw a brother or sister in Christ walking away from faith I would pray for them and ask everyone else to Pray to God for them. We do the same when we call upon the Virgin Mary.

You are not discerning here.

God is not a vengeful God , We dont call upon Mary because we angered the Lord. Thats bizzare. It lacks logic.!

So what Paul is saying you do agree upon, and you agree its ok to ask for intercession to the Mother of God. You confuse me as to what you are discerning here.

Sara

Sara,

You seem to be completely overlooking that the prayer specifically says someone goes through Mary because they “fear” Jesus and only she can “appease” Him. Isn’t that “calling upon Mary because we angered the Lord”? It certainly seems obvious to anyone else I’ve asked about it on my end. When that prayer asks Mary to “obtain” for me my “pardon for sins” from Jesus, how can you then say it doesn’t say to Mary to “please pray to Jesus for me”?

It doesn’t appear to me that I’m the one not discerning.

What does the word “appease” mean to you, especially in context that it’s based on “fear”? What does that prayer say about Jesus having to be “appeased”?

Everyone keeps accusing me of being too daft to comprehend or even giving “false testimony”. [By the way, I’m not exactly sure what about that post you found “absolutely brilliant”. It didn’t bother to provide any answers or refutations. It simply said (over and over again) that it disagreed with me. There’s nothing clever in telling someone “you don’t understand”, yet fail to provide a proper explanation]. In fact, so far, the only excuse I’m seen of this text is that it’s “flowery” language, a hyperbole, and that it doesn’t mean what it says. Sorry, but that’s not an explanation, that’s a cop out.

David