Mary for our salvation?

[Catholic_Tom]

This kind of puzzles me, can anyone help? I understand that it states that the ultimate crux of the prayer is Jesus is Judge, but if you read it, I think you can see what I mean. This was written by someone else.

Do Catholics still pray to Mary for salvation? This seems to be the case if one looks at their official documents. One of the many prayers in the popular booklet "Devotions in Honor of Our mother of Perpetual Help,” are as follows:
In thy hands I place my eternal salvation, and to thee do I entrust my soul . . . For. If thou protect me, dear Mother, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my Judge Himself, because by one prayer from thee, he will be appeased. But one thing I fear; that, in the hour of temptation, I may neglect to call on thee, and thus perish miserably. Obtain for me, then, the pardon of my sins . . .”Wasn’t it Jesus Christ Who obtained our salvation on the cross when He cried out “It is Finished?” If so, then we need to pray to Him and only Him when we need to be pardoned for our sins. Hebrews 10: 19-22 says, “Therefore, brethren, since we have full freedom and confidence to enter into the Holy of Holies by the power and virtue in the blood of Jesus . . . And since we have such a great and wonderful and noble Priest [Who rules] over the house of God, let us all come forward and draw near with true hearts in unqualified assurance and absolute conviction engendered by faith.”

 

[Dan-Man916]

That prayer will fall on deaf ears to evangelicals because that prayer requires an understanding of the theology behind the COmmunion of Saints and the Body of Christ.

But the basis for the petition in this prayer can be found in several biblical verses:

1 Kings 2: 19: *"*So Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, and the king stood up to meet her and paid her homage. Then he sat down upon his throne, and a throne was provided for the king’s mother, who sat at his right hand. ‘There is one small favor I would ask of you,’ she said. ‘Do not refuse me.’ ‘Ask it, my mother,’ the king said to her, ‘for I will not refuse you.’

John 2:3 When the wine was gone, Jesus’ mother said to him, “They have no more wine.”

We see here that the Mother of the King is called the Queen Mother. Because Jesus honored his Father and Mother perfectly, he never refused a request from either of them.

So we see that when the Mother of the King asks the King for something, any favor, that the King, Jesus, never refuses her. In fact, because the Communion of Saints is the Body of Christ, they are mystically united to Jesus, so that all prayers through the Saints are prayers through the Body to the head.

Therefore, because Mary had such a pre-eminent role in the Body of Christ as Mother of the King, and the Body is mystically united to the head, by saying that we can rely on Mary is implicitly saying that we rely on Jesus’ perfect Kingship and His perfect following of the law in honoring His Mother by honoring her request ebcause as we know, God desires that all men be saved.

But without the understanding of the relationship of the Saints to the Body of Christ and the real unity there, it will not be possible to reconcile this prayer. Intercessory Prayer to any Saint is a prayer direct directly to Christ because of the mystical nature of the Communion of Saints to the Body of Christ, which is a real union, not a symbolic one.

Does that make any sense?

 

[Catholic_Tom]

Dan-Man916:

That prayer will fall on deaf ears to evangelicals because that prayer requires an understanding of the theology behind the COmmunion of Saints and the Body of Christ.

But the basis for the petition in this prayer can be found in several biblical verses:

1 Kings 2: 19: *"*So Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, and the king stood up to meet her and paid her homage. Then he sat down upon his throne, and a throne was provided for the king’s mother, who sat at his right hand. ‘There is one small favor I would ask of you,’ she said. ‘Do not refuse me.’ ‘Ask it, my mother,’ the king said to her, ‘for I will not refuse you.’

John 2:3 When the wine was gone, Jesus’ mother said to him, “They have no more wine.”

We see here that the Mother of the King is called the Queen Mother. Because Jesus honored his Father and Mother perfectly, he never refused a request from either of them.

So we see that when the Mother of the King asks the King for something, any favor, that the King, Jesus, never refuses her. In fact, because the Communion of Saints is the Body of Christ, they are mystically united to Jesus, so that all prayers through the Saints are prayers through the Body to the head.

Therefore, because Mary had such a pre-eminent role in the Body of Christ as Mother of the King, and the Body is mystically united to the head, by saying that we can rely on Mary is implicitly saying that we rely on Jesus’ perfect Kingship and His perfect following of the law in honoring His Mother by honoring her request ebcause as we know, God desires that all men be saved.

But without the understanding of the relationship of the Saints to the Body of Christ and the real unity there, it will not be possible to reconcile this prayer. Intercessory Prayer to any Saint is a prayer direct directly to Christ because of the mystical nature of the Communion of Saints to the Body of Christ, which is a real union, not a symbolic one.

Does that make any sense?

I guess where my problem lies is that I don’t place my salvation in Mary’s hands, nor does she have the power to protect me. I believe in her ability to intercede for me, and the dogma’s of the faith, but this seems over the top for me. So in asking Mary to pray for my salvation is one thing, but to put your salvation in her hands is another…I think.

 

[Joseph_Bilodeau]

Catholic Tom:

…asking Mary to pray for my salvation is one thing, but to put your salvation in her hands is another…I think.

Not really. To place our salvation in Mary’s hands means for us to place ourselves under her authority, subject to her orders, as it were. So what are her orders for us? Do whatever He tells you (John 2:5).

Those who who entrust themselves to the Mother of our Lord in this manner need not fear for their salvation.

 

[St.Curious]

I just want to say to you guys that this is the best explanation I’ve ever read for Marian intercessory. Thank you.

 

[EA_Man]

Joseph Bilodeau:

Not really. To place our salvation in Mary’s hands means for us to place ourselves under her authority, subject to her orders, as it were. So what are her orders for us? Do whatever He tells you (John 2:5).

Those who who entrust themselves to the Mother of our Lord in this manner need not fear for their salvation.

The question is: Are you one with Jesus Christ or not?

We have been baptized into His death AND into His Life.

Romans 6:3-4
Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Galatians 3:26-28
You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

We are a new creation in Jesus Christ:

Galatians 6:14-16
May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation. Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the Israel of God.

Since we are one with Christ, since we are a new creation in Christ (the old has passed away). Why would we go to Mary?

Is there a Scriptural basis for appealing to Mary for intercession? Where in Scripture did the Apostles appeal to Mary for intercession?

Peace

 

[DavidB]

The fact that this forum hasn’t universally denounced a prayer like that is a stark reminder of why I can’t conceive of ever returning to the Catholic Church. No amount of “deeper understanding” of beliefs or practices can explain away just how wrong it is.

David

 

[Catholic_Tom]

This is the best explanation I have ever read too, thanks everyone.

 

[The_Iambic_Pen]

EA_Man:

Is there a Scriptural basis for appealing to Mary for intercession?

Must there be?

Well, while I must admit I have come to have a much more accepting view of the intercession of the saints (including Mary), I also must admit that I find this prayer troubling. I do not find it troubling due to its intercessory nature, but I am exceedingly bothered by the idea of placing my salvation in Mary’s hands. It also seems to elevate Mary above God by portraying Mary as the kindly intercessor and God as the harsh judge. I guess this prayer seems dangerously close to mariolatry, if it doesn’t cross the line already. Please understand I don’t mean this as an attack on Mary, for whom I have the highest respect, and for whose intercession I am very grateful. I just don’t understand how this particular prayer can be seen to accurately express how we should view Mary.

God Bless!

 

[St.Curious]

DavidB: Religion and faith are not about surface thoughts and casual surface meanings. They are about deep emotional beliefs and understandings. You are no theologian if you think otherwise. It is wise for us to leave the religious doctrine up to the theologians, this prayer does not fault the one and true good Lord in any way.

Even Martin Luther said to “leave the sword to the magistrate, and the pen to the theologian.”

 

[EA_Man]

EA_Man:
Must there be?

Well, while I must admit I have come to have a much more accepting view of the intercession of the saints (including Mary), I also must admit that I find this prayer troubling. I do not find it troubling due to its intercessory nature, but I am exceedingly bothered by the idea of placing my salvation in Mary’s hands. It also seems to elevate Mary above God by portraying Mary as the kindly intercessor and God as the harsh judge. I guess this prayer seems dangerously close to mariolatry, if it doesn’t cross the line already. Please understand I don’t mean this as an attack on Mary, for whom I have the highest respect, and for whose intercession I am very grateful. I just don’t understand how this particular prayer can be seen to accurately express how we should view Mary.

God Bless!

I suppose we’re veering into a Sola Scriptura versus Tradition swamp - that’s my fault.

Let’s back up a step - and take it from where you left it.
The Iambic Pen:

I am exceedingly bothered by the idea of placing my salvation in Mary’s hands. It also seems to elevate Mary above God by portraying Mary as the kindly intercessor and God as the harsh judge. I guess this prayer seems dangerously close to mariolatry, if it doesn’t cross the line already.

How does the Catholic Church define “mariolatry”?

I do very much agree with you that this prayer has troubling aspects to it. But some others don’t view it that way.

Who is to decide?
Is it simply a matter of preference?

p.s.
I stand by my overall objection to praying to Mary for intercession.
But in the interest of furthering the dialogue I won’t harp on that point.

Peace

 

[Joseph_Bilodeau]

EA_Man:

The question is: Are you one with Jesus Christ or not?..

Absolutely.

EA_Man:

…We have been baptized into His death AND into His Life…

Amen.

EA_Man:

…Romans 6:3-4
Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Galatians 3:26-28
You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

We are a new creation in Jesus Christ:

Galatians 6:14-16
May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation. Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the Israel of God…

Amen. And your point is?

EA_Man:

…Since we are one with Christ, since we are a new creation in Christ (the old has passed away). Why would we go to Mary?..

Well, for one, because Jesus came to us through Mary, and anything or anyone good enough for Jesus is good enough for me!

EA_Man:

…Is there a Scriptural basis for appealing to Mary for intercession?..

There are Scriptural bases for appealing to any Christian for intercession, not excluding Mary:
1 Timothy 2:1-3:

First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone, for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity. This is good and pleasing to God our savior

If it is good and pleasing to God for Christians to offer prayers for each other, then it must also be good and pleasing to God for Christians to ask other Christians to pray for them, in order that the Christians so asked might know who to pray for and how they should pray. As was stated before, this does not exclude Mary.

Also:
James 5:16:

Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful.

Whose prayer is likely to be more fervent and what person is more righteous than the Mother of our Lord, save our Lord Himself?

EA_Man:

…Where in Scripture did the Apostles appeal to Mary for intercession?..

The previous citations apply to Mary as to any other Christian.

EA_Man:

…Peace

Et cum spiritu tuo!

 

[CARose]

Hey EA_Man,

As you’ve acknowledged, we’re not a sola scriptura bunch here, but neither are we a nola scriptura crowd. I thought Dan-Man gave an excellent couple of sources for why we know that Mary is prepared to intercede for us, her children (Christ gave her to us as her children from the cross. I don’t see how anything he did from the cross could be less than absolutely essential for human salvation). See these from his post:

Dan-Man916:

… the basis for the petition in this prayer can be found in several biblical verses:

1 Kings 2: 19: *"*So Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, and the king stood up to meet her and paid her homage. Then he sat down upon his throne, and a throne was provided for the king’s mother, who sat at his right hand. ‘There is one small favor I would ask of you,’ she said. ‘Do not refuse me.’ ‘Ask it, my mother,’ the king said to her, ‘for I will not refuse you.’

John 2:3 When the wine was gone, Jesus’ mother said to him, “They have no more wine.”

We see here that the Mother of the King is called the Queen Mother. Because Jesus honored his Father and Mother perfectly, he never refused a request from either of them.

So we see that when the Mother of the King asks the King for something, any favor, that the King, Jesus, never refuses her. In fact, because the Communion of Saints is the Body of Christ, they are mystically united to Jesus, so that all prayers through the Saints are prayers through the Body to the head.

…Does that make any sense?

I have heard Mary referred to as the neck in the body of Christ.

Personally folks, I find the intercessory prayer given by the OP to be beautiful and I would gladly pray it, but only in as much as I know that we are to follow the example of Christ, and certainly as a weak human child, Christ himself climbed into Mary’s lap for the protection of his blessed mother.

I can understand the concern being raised about the part that reads: I fear nothing; … nor even from Jesus, my Judge Himself, because by one prayer from thee, he will be appeased.

I can see how this might lead one to believe that one is in some way placing Mary above Jesus. I don’t see it that way. Mary, being a mere mortal, is more approachable than the eternal, unfathomable God, even though he did come to us as a Man. There are times, in my sinfulness that I quake in fear that my unworthiness might exclude me from eternal union with God. I trust in his ever lasting mercy, and yet weak as I am, I do sometimes succumb to the fear of what I have wrought. How special to have a mother I can turn to, before facing dad. A mother who will calm my fears, remind me of how much dad loves me, even when I’m my worst self, and speak to dad on my behalf.

This is my Mary.

I would gladly pray such a prayer to her, and never, in all of it, forget who is my God, the head of the Body of Christ, Our Lord Jesus Christ.

CARose

 

[Joseph_Bilodeau]

EA_Man:

…How does the Catholic Church define “mariolatry”?..

Mariolatry would be the offering of Latria (that is, the highest Adoration, due to God alone) to Mary. We don’t do this. We offer her the honor which is rightly hers, which is the highest honor due to any non-Divine person, but no more.

Mary is Jesus’ mother, and we love and honor her because He loved and honored her more than we ever possibly can, and we immitate Jesus. But we also know Mary is not God.

 

[Sherlock]

It’s also wise to remember the background of some of the Marian prayers that sound, to us, over-the-top (though I don’t know the origin of the one listed). The nineteenth century was a much more flowery age than ours in the area of prose, for example. Also, the prayers are not meant to be theological creeds but love-letters, so to speak. The language used, as a result, is different. “How do I love thee? Let me count the ways…” was written by a woman to her husband. Does that mean that Elizabeth Browning thought her husband was God?

It was Mary’s intercession that led Jesus to change the water into wine.

 

[DavidB]

DavidB: Religion and faith are not about surface thoughts and casual surface meanings. They are about deep emotional beliefs and understandings. You are no theologian if you think otherwise. It is wise for us to leave the religious doctrine up to the theologians, this prayer does not fault the one and true good Lord in any way.

Even Martin Luther said to “leave the sword to the magistrate, and the pen to the theologian.”

I prefer the Sword of the Spirit myself, which rightly divides right from wrong. This prayer is theologically wrong at it’s deepest levels, something I’m quite capable of grasping quickly.

1. "In thy hands I place my eternal salvation, and to thee do I entrust my soul . . . "

We don’t need to go any further in rejecting this as blasphemy. We are baptized into Christ alone, not Mary. Baptism is our entry into the New Covenant which is where we place our eternal salvation. I understand the Catholic ideas of Marian Co-Redeemer and Mediatrix, but these are not approved dogma and even if they were, I’d reject them as blasphemous, which is why I suspect they’ll never be declared dogma.

1. because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them;

Again, Mary is not capable of obtaining our forgiveness from sins, Jesus is our atonement. It is the throne of grace (God’s throne) we are to approach boldly to ask for forgiveness, not Mary.

1. nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together;

Again, Jesus is the One who defeated Satan on the Cross, not Mary. Claiming she’s more powerful than all Hell is baseless.

1. nor even from Jesus, my Judge Himself, because by one prayer from thee, he will be appeased.

And here’s the rub . . . Jesus became the Son of Man for the precise purpose of being our Mediator between us and God the Father. He was tempted in every way as we are and understands our weakness. He suffered as a man and understands our pain. He is approachable. He is our Advocate to the Father. He is our appeasement reconciling us to God the Father. This line of the prayer is an insult to His life and victory. He revealed the Father to us so we could know God. How can this prayer claim we can’t approach him because He needs to be appeased? He called Himself the Son of Man for a profound reason, He wants man to approach Him as a co-heir with Him. He calls us His friend, He calls us His brothers. He calls us His Bride. This prayer insults the very intimacy Jesus earned and continues to seek with us .

David

 

[CARose]

We are also called to approach him with humility and meakness.

God Bless,

CARose

 

[EA_Man]

Joseph Bilodeau:

Mariolatry would be the offering of Latria (that is, the highest Adoration, due to God alone) to Mary. We don’t do this. We offer her the honor which is rightly hers, which is the highest honor due to any non-Divine person, but no more.

Mary is Jesus’ mother, and we love and honor her because He loved and honored her more than we ever possibly can, and we immitate Jesus. But we also know Mary is not God.

If thou protect me, dear Mother, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my Judge Himself, because by one prayer from thee, he will be appeased.

This is a very dangerous representation of Jesus Christ. I.e. Jesus is just hopping mad at us and unless His mother calms Him down He’s really going to let us have it.

Appeasement of an angry God is a pagan concept. God sent Jesus Christ to us to RECONCILE us to Him, not to appease God’s anger. This prayer is UN-Christian.

The person that obtains pardon for us is Jesus Christ, not Mary.

Peace

 

[DavidB]

CARose:

We are also called to approach him with humility and meakness.

God Bless,

CARose

But humility and meekness should never be twisted to the point where we’re afraid to approach Him, which is what this prayer is inferring. Scripture says “boldly” approach the throne of Grace, "bold’ because we are confident that Jesus is not condemning, rather he understands and is ready with the Grace we need and willing to give it out upon our confession and repentance.

David

 

[Fergal]

God in all His majesty needed Mary for His plan of salvation, Jesus the Son of God, God made man needed Mary, the Holy Spirit needed Mary.

Members of other denominations try to tell us we don’t need Mary.

Hmmmm.

Thanks, but I think I’ll side with God.