Mary for our salvation?

[sara888]

**EAMAN said:Is there a Scriptural basis for appealing to Mary for intercession? Where in Scripture did the Apostles appeal to Mary for intercession?

The Church Loves and Honors the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, yet venerates with special love Mary the most holy Mother of God and honors with religious devotion the memory of the martyrs and the other saints.

All generations shalll call me blessed Lk. 1:48). The Mother of God

In keeping with our apostolic service, we honor not worship the Holy Mother of God.

We ask our friends and family members to pray for us, I see no difference asking the intercession of the Mother of God,with the exception that she is Holy and Blessed.

Sara**

 

[CARose]

It’s not about God being angry, as much as about us being meek, and unworthy to be in his presence.

There are times when contemplating the greatness of God that it is overwhelming to contemplate. At times like this, it’s good to remember that there was a time when he was a young child, just as we are small and weak. At at that moment in time, he climbed into Mary’s lap and sought comfort, just as we seek her loving embrace.

Only as Christ did it first do we love and honor Mary. Only in her role as His mother, only as intercessor to him, my God.

For Mary, without Jesus, is nothing. Had she not consented to be the Handmaid of our Lord, we would not acknowledge her grace. She humbled herself to be used according to Gods will, even when she knew not how she could possibly make things right with Joseph. How was she to face the world, pregnant and not yet married? But she trusted God, she said yes, she gave her fiat. And then she raised this god-child, and she knew him for who he was. She taught him to pray and he grew in wisdom. She interceded for the wedding party and he performed his first miracle. His time was now at hand and she, his mother, knew it.

She stayed by the side of her son, even following him to the foot of the cross. She felt his pain, for He was of her womb, and yet she did not leave to spare herself the misery of his death. She accepted John and all of humanity, as her son, her children. She lived the remainder of her life as an example of the humility we should all emulate.

And so I reach out to my mother, who is nothing except that which she became through the birth of her son, Jesus Christ. And because of her son, she is everything to me.

God Bless,

CARose

 

[EA_Man]

DavidB:

But humility and meekness should never be twisted to the point where we’re afraid to approach Him, which is what this prayer is inferring. Scripture says “boldly” approach the throne of Grace, "bold’ because we are confident that Jesus is not condemning, rather he understands and is ready with the Grace we need and willing to give it out upon our confession and repentance.

David

This is exactly correct.

The above prayer states essentially that we are afraid to come to Jesus, so we need to go to Mary instead.

Jesus is mad at us, Mary will calm Him down.

Apparently Jesus wouldn’t be merciful to us unless Mary stepped in.

If you’re afraid to come to Jesus and have to go to Mary instead for mercy, I’d say you’ve come to the place of giving latria to Mary instead of Jesus.

Peace

 

[EA_Man]

EAMAN said:Is there a Scriptural basis for appealing to Mary for intercession? Where in Scripture did the Apostles appeal to Mary for intercession?

The Church Loves and Honors the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, yet venerates with special love Mary the most holy Mother of God and honors with religious devotion the memory of the martyrs and the other saints.

All generations shalll call me blessed Lk. 1:48). The Mother of God

In keeping with our apostolic service, we honor not worship the Holy Mother of God.

We ask our friends and family members to pray for us, I see no difference asking the intercession of the Mother of God,with the exception that she is Holy and Blessed.

Sara

Sara,

If you’re approaching Mary for mercy rather than Jesus, you have arrived at the place of giving Mary preeminence over Jesus.

Peace

 

[MonicaC]

I am not sure but in the OT doesn’t the Mother of Soluman (i know I butchered that) come to him as the Queen Mother to calm him and worked in a way as a come between. This is the way I have always seen how Our Lady works for us. I know (God Knows) that I am so not worthy of the forgiveness for all my many many many… (you get the point) sins. So my Mother is there to help me. Didn’t Moses do the same thing when God wanted to punish the people for there lack of faith, when he had to remind God that he made a promise to them that they will see the promise land. Now I don’t know this is only my little thought but if Moses (who was with original sin) could persude God in his anger to be merciful than why wouldn’t the **Blessed **Mary? :yup:

 

[Sherlock]

EA_Man:

Sara,

If you’re approaching Mary for mercy rather than Jesus, you have arrived at the place of giving Mary preeminence over Jesus.

Peace

How did you get from what Sara wrote that she approached Mary “rather than” Jesus? It’s not “either/or” (a common flaw in much Protestant thinking). Your putting words into Sara’s mouth shows a lack of charity.

 

[Dan-Man916]

David,

*1. "In thy hands I place my eternal salvation, and to thee do I entrust my soul . . . "
We don’t need to go any further in rejecting this as blasphemy. *

Why? Where you see blasphemy, Catholicism sees a great cloud of witnesses that follows the lamb wherever He goes (Rev 14:4). This Body of Christ (1Cor 12:27) are partakers in the divine nature (2Pet 1:3-4) so that as His Body we all intimately share in the eternal sacrifice offered once and for all from Christ to the Father (Heb 10:12-14) by uniting our own sufferings and sacrifices to Christ’s unique Sacrifice (Col 1:24).

As the Body of Christ, we share in Christ’s role as unique Mediator and Redeemer. We don’t take His place. We share in it because we are mystical members of His Body.

This is what it means to be born again in Christ (John3:5). Since Mary participates in God’s plan of salvation in a unique way, as the Mother of God, she is uniquely able to aid us in our petition to Christ, for Jesus never denies a request from His Mother that is pleasing to the Father; that request being mercy and the salvation of souls.

*2. because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them;
*Mary, as any saint, is united to Christ. As we know, the prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective (Jas 5:16). Who can be more righteous than those who have already washed their robes pure white in the blood of the lamb. The saved in heaven are righteous in Christ. To be “In Christ” means to share in His divine nature and to have one’s will and desire in perfect accord with the will and desire of Jesus. Therefore, for Mary to desire to bring salvation to us must mean, by extension, that Christ desires to grant mercy. You cannot separate Christ from His Body, the Church.

*3. nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; *
As we share in Christ, the Saints in Heaven are all more powerful than any demon or satan. Mary especially so, since she acted in a singular unique way in God’s plan of salvation by saying Yes to the Angel Gabriel to be the Mother of God.

*4. nor even from Jesus, my Judge Himself, because by one prayer from thee, he will be appeased. *
Again, those in Heaven will share the will of Christ because we participate in His divine nature, so we will cooperate with His divine will, which is to give mercy and salvation to souls.

This prayer insults the very intimacy Jesus earned and continues to seek with us .

There is nothing more intimate than the mystical union of the Bride and the Bridegroom. We also see the nuptial mystery of the Bride of Christ, the Church, to the bridegroom, Christ. This mystery of the Church, being both His Body and His bride, are signs that point to a greater reality. There is nothing more intimate than the nuptial mystery. The Communion of Saints share in that nuptial mystery because they already share in the great banquet in heaven. By uniting ourselves to Christ through Mary, we avail ourselves to the power of the Church victorious in heaven. Those who are united to the life of the Trinity. What could me more intimate then entering into this nuptial mystery through the Saints who have gone before us, especially his Mother, who in a special way, shows the great redemptive power of Christ by her perfect obedience.

The difference here being that the theology of the Communion of Saints and Theosis allows the Saints to share in the redemptive work of Christ.

 

[CARose]

EA_Man,

As I stated in my post above (I realize it wasn’t up until you’d begun constructing your replies above), Mary never comes before Christ.

Going to Mary is about our weakness and our human fears, not about our impression that God is incapable of forgiveness. For we clearly know that God is all loving, all merciful. But he’s also all powerful and all Justice.

Justice and Mercy go hand in hand. We need to be perfect before coming into the presence of the Lord. This is one area where Catholics and Protestants do sincerely disagree. We understand that to enter Heaven, we must first be purged of our attachment to sin. This is our proclivity to repeat, even when we know it is wrong, an action or failure to act which displeases God.

Heaven is perfection and there is no lying to God as to the disposition of our Soul. At the same time, the gates of Heaven have been opened for us by the Son. So how does one reconcile these things? The Catholic Church has helped us to understand that after death we are seperated from our attachment to venial sins through Purgatory, the purging of our souls to attain such perfection. (see 1 Peter 1:7 and Mt 12:31, see also 2 Macc 12:46 for reference to prayers for the dead).

I accept that this is something which you may not believe, but it is what the Church teaches, and I believe the church.

CARose

 

[DavidB]

Dan,

Sorry, but I see your entire post as a bunch of theologically sounding malarky that removes us from our primary relationship with Jesus, our Redeemer, our Mediator.

My wife is a saint in the Body of Christ, yet when I relate to her everyday in conversation, hugs and kisses, it does not substitute for my having a relationship with Jesus. I don’t ask my wife to ask Jesus for forgiveness for me. I ask Him myself. In fact, based on your thinking, I can simply ask myself since I also am One with Christ in the mystical Body of Christ as well and asking me is the same thing as asking Jesus . . . can you see how ridiculous this argument is?

All of this discussion obviates the obvious, that we are temples of the Holy Spirit and that Christ dwells IN us. Why ask someone (ANYONE) else to talk to God on our behalf. He’s IN us. I don’t think Catholics fully appreciate the impact and import of this Truth. Jesus so wants to be close to us that He decided to LIVE in us as His dwelling place. He desires intimate fellowship with us. If this isn’t clear in Catholic teaching, then I can understand how someone can get too scared to approach God, but it’s wrong thinking and theology.

David

 

[EA_Man]

Sherlock:

How did you get from what Sara wrote that she approached Mary “rather than” Jesus? It’s not “either/or” (a common flaw in much Protestant thinking). Your putting words into Sara’s mouth shows a lack of charity.

How am I putting words into someone’s mouth?

I prefaced my remark with an “IF”.

That indicates a conditional construction.

It is entirely possible, even probable that Sara is not in the place that I described.

I did not make the statement that Sara was giving Mary preeminence over Jesus, I said “IF”.

Now you may think that that lacks clarity, but it does not lack in charity; as does a broadbrush categorization of “Protestant thinking”.

Peace

 

[DavidB]

CARose:

Justice and Mercy go hand in hand. We need to be perfect before coming into the presence of the Lord. This is one area where Catholics and Protestants do sincerely disagree.

CARose,

But scripture is clear “Mercy triumphed over justice!” (James 2:13)

To approach the Lord, we can’t be perfect, we’re to be clothed with Christ who is perfect on our behalf. That’s what the Atonement was all about. We can’t be perfect when we approach Christ to confess our sin . . . it’s a trap to think that way. We’re told to approach the Throne of Grace boldly to obtain the forgiveness we need - that’s the part Catholics tend to not understand well.

David

 

[Joseph_Bilodeau]

EA_Man:

If thou protect me, dear Mother, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my Judge Himself, because by one prayer from thee, he will be appeased.

This is a very dangerous representation of Jesus Christ. I.e. Jesus is just hopping mad at us and unless His mother calms Him down He’s really going to let us have it…

I agree that this prayer could be misunderstood this way, and so it probably would not be a good choice of prayer to use in a gathering of persons not familiar with this literary style, but it’s not really as dangerous as you seem to think it is.

The expression “I fear nothing… nor even from Jesus, my Judge Himself, because by one prayer from thee, he will be appeased.” is an example of hyperbole, a form of literary exaggeration used to emphasize a point. It is not unlike the sorts of hyperbole we see in love poetry such as

*I’d climb the highest mountain, *
swim the deepest sea,
cross the widest desert,
for just one kiss from thee.

or the sort of hyperbole your mother might have used in exasperation: “if I’ve told you once, I’ve told you a million times, clean up your room!”

The important thing to keep in mind is the purpose of the exaggeration. In the case of the mother’s statement, the point is not that she has literally given this order 999,999 times plus once more; the point is that she has said this more times than she should have had to. In the case of this prayer, the purpose of the hyperbole is not to make a statement about what the person praying thinks about the nature and character of Jesus, the purpose is to express confidence and trust in our loving mother.

EA_Man:

…Appeasement of an angry God is a pagan concept. God sent Jesus Christ to us to RECONCILE us to Him, not to appease God’s anger. This prayer is UN-Christian…

Yes and no. Appeasement of an angry God is a concept common to both pagan religions and Christianity, at least insofar as the Old Testament is part of our Chrisrtian Tradition. Do you not recall the story of how Abraham talked God into sparing the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah from destruction if there were as few as 50 rightous men there, then 45, then 40, then 30, then 20, then only 10? (Genesis 18:16-33). If God is indeed the same, yesterday, today and forever, then this story still holds truths for us, understood, to be sure, in the light of how God has further revealed Himself through the person of Jesus Christ.

This prayer is not un-Christian anymore than the mother’s statement above is un-mathematical. The intention of the person praying in conformity with the mind of the Church makes this prayer very Christian, although, as admitted earlier, it is possibly misunderstandable by persons not familiar with this literary style. I am confident, though, that God is sufficiently intelligent to understand hyperbole.

EA_Man:

…The person that obtains pardon for us is Jesus Christ, not Mary…

That’s essentially correct, but we Catholics would say that Mary cooperates with Jesus in his work of salvation, as should all Christians; and that Jesus works through Mary, as all Christians should be open to Jesus working through them.

EA_Man:

…Peace

Shalom.

 

[EA_Man]

DavidB:

Dan,

Sorry, but I see your entire post as a bunch of theologically sounding malarky that removes us from our primary relationship with Jesus, our Redeemer, our Mediator.

My wife is a saint in the Body of Christ, yet when I relate to her everyday in conversation, hugs and kisses, it does not substitute for my having a relationship with Jesus. I don’t ask my wife to ask Jesus for forgiveness for me. I ask Him myself. In fact, based on your thinking, I can simply ask myself since I also am One with Christ in the mystical Body of Christ as well and asking me is the same thing as asking Jesus . . . can you see how ridiculous this argument is?

All of this discussion obviates the obvious, that we are temples of the Holy Spirit and that Christ dwells IN us. Why ask someone (ANYONE) else to talk to God on our behalf. He’s IN us. I don’t think Catholics fully appreciate the impact and import of this Truth. Jesus so wants to be close to us that He decided to LIVE in us as His dwelling place. He desires intimate fellowship with us. If this isn’t clear in Catholic teaching, then I can understand how someone can get too scared to approach God, but it’s wrong thinking and theology.

David

Thank you, well said David.

My question is this: If Mary is supposed to intercede for us, why is there no reference in any of the Epistles stating so?

Why are none of the Churches advised to seek Mary’s intercession for them? Why are we not shown Mary interceding on anyone’s behalf outside of the wedding at Cana?

Peace

 

[sara888]

**Eman- Would you or have you ever asked a friend or family memeber to pray for you?, or have they asked you to pray for them. ?

Christ wants us Christians to live the golden rule, which is Love of him and neighbor First and foremost.

Now if we must according to the words of Christ love him and our neighbor as ourselves, why cant we love his Mother who concieved Christ by the Holy Spirit.

This is the Mother of God, she is Holy and Blessed.

You will never understand or comprehend the devotion rather than worship Catholics have for the Mother of God. We honor and worship the Holy Trinity first and above all things. ** .

Sara

 

[Fiat]

DavidB:

CARose,

But scripture is clear “Mercy triumphed over justice!” (James 2:13)

To approach the Lord, we can’t be perfect, we’re to be clothed with Christ who is perfect on our behalf. That’s what the Atonement was all about. We can’t be perfect when we approach Christ to confess our sin . . . it’s a trap to think that way. We’re told to approach the Throne of Grace boldly to obtain the forgiveness we need - that’s the part Catholics tend to not understand well.

David

Your previous quote forcefully indicates that Christ dwells in us. You indicate in this post that we are clothed with Christ. So in spite of the fact that Christ is in us and on us, you still somehow believe that Christ can never truly transform us, making us “partakers of the divine nature”?! Why are you not equally troubled by your own theology as you are by the beautiful prayer of intercession to Our Lady?

Fiat

 

[Dan-Man916]

David,

Sorry, but I see your entire post as a bunch of theologically sounding malarky that removes us from our primary relationship with Jesus, our Redeemer, our Mediator.
That is because i think you have a fundamental difference in the understanding of the Body of Christ, Communion of Saints, Nutpial mystery of Christ and the Church, and Theosis, whereby we participate in Christ’s divine nature.

*My wife is a saint in the Body of Christ, yet when I relate to her everyday in conversation, hugs and kisses, it does not substitute for my having a relationship with Jesus. *
Then, with all due respect, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the Sacrament of Marriage and its relation to the inner life of the Trinity. I believe Ephesians 5 forms the basis for it. What we to do others, we do to Jesus. How we relate to others directly affects our relationship to Jesus. It is through the Body of Christ that we participate in relationship to Christ. I recommend John Paul II’s work, Theology of the Body. It explains it in full detail. (or at least read the highlights, it’s very long).

*I don’t ask my wife to ask Jesus for forgiveness for me. I ask Him myself. *
That’s unfortunate. I pray for my wife and daughter’s sanctification and salvation everyday. That necissarily involves forgiveness of sins and Hope of mercy in Christ’s promises to us.

*In fact, based on your thinking, I can simply ask myself since I also am One with Christ *
and you do so!
Every time you pray for God to make you holy. Being a member of the Body of Christ means that the Holy Spirit dwells in you, and the Spirit intercedes for you.
You don’t ask yourself for salvation. You ask Jesus. That’s exactly what the meaning of this petition to Mary is. If you’ve never asked someone to pray for you, then you are clearly missing a biblical idea.

• I don’t think Catholics fully appreciate the impact and import of this Truth. *
  An ad hominem. You don’t know what i fully appreciate, so don’t presume based on your own misunderstandings of Catholic theology. As a former evangelical protestant, I know full well about this kind of sanctimonious attitude of presuming other’s appreciation of the salvation offered in Christ alone.

Jesus so wants to be close to us that He decided to LIVE in us as His dwelling place. He desires intimate fellowship with us. If this isn’t clear in Catholic teaching, then I can understand how someone can get too scared to approach God, but it’s wrong thinking and theology.
That’s exactly what I have been saying in my past 2 posts. Sorry if you couldn’t understand what I was saying. However, without the Catholic udnerstanding of the theological concepts I discussed, I can see why you misunderstand everything I have said.

 

[Fiat]

EA_Man:

Thank you, well said David.

My question is this: If Mary is supposed to intercede for us, why is there no reference in any of the Epistles stating so?

Why are none of the Churches advised to seek Mary’s intercession for them? Why are we not shown Mary interceding on anyone’s behalf outside of the wedding at Cana?

Peace

EA_Man:

Your first paragraph betrays your misunderstanding. Mary is not “supposed” to do anything, other than to bring salvation to the world through her “fiat” and to magnify the savior.

The promise we have from scripture is that the prayer of a righteous person avails much. If you are content to not ask for Our Lady’s intercession, then that’s your business. Go in peace.

Fiat

 

[scylla]

This sort of thing is mis-understood, just in the same way St. Louis Grignion de Montfort is misunderstood in his flowery language describing Mary.

There are many Catholics because of a deep love of Mary, use language that may seem over the top especially coming from a non-catholic background.

For me this was a very difficult thing, it took me a very long time to get used to this coming back to the Church. It takes a while to understand the mindset of Catholics using this type language. They do not think of Mary above Jesus in any way, they just have a profound love for her. As a person coming back to the Catholic Church I was relieved to hear I didn’t have to do this, but the Communion of Saints is something we believe in.

My love for my mother in no way detracts from my love of God, yet this sort of thing does take some time to understand.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[sara888]

**

Free will Transforms us, are you Holy.? are you sinless, what sends one to hell according to Christians teaching,- SIN.

So we repent, and become truly sorry and partake of the Body and Blood of Chirst, for rememberance and forgivness of Sins.

Unless you are living a complete Holy life, you have not been transformed. If you are not going to church, mass, communion, etc, how are you loving God and showing rememberance of his death. How are your sins forgiven, present and future, not past.

Sara**

 

[EA_Man]

Eman- Would you or have you ever asked a friend or family memeber to pray for you?, or have they asked you to pray for them. ?

Christ wants us Christians to live the golden rule, which is Love of him and neighbor First and foremost.

Now if we must according to the words of Christ love him and our neighbor as ourselves, why cant we love his Mother who concieved Christ by the Holy Spirit.

This is the Mother of God, she is Holy and Blessed.

**You will never understand or comprehend the devotion rather than worship Catholics have for the Mother of God. We honor and worship the Holy Trinity first and above all things. **.

Sara

I’ve heard this rationale before. It’s no more convincing now than then.

When you ask family or friend to pray for you, do you say “Unto your protection I fly where I fear nothing, not even the anger of Jesus who will be appeased by one petition from thee.”

I’ll bet you don’t.

But here’s where the rubber really meets the road - please could you tell me how the prayer above is devotion rather than worship?

Mary has more power than all of Hell? How can anyone justify a statement like that?

Thanks