Mary for Protestants

[Tom]

In reference to Mary being sinless, here is the comparison of the freewoman (from sin in the case of Mary) and the slave (slave of sin Eve)
Galatians chap 4:
[22] For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, and the other by a free woman.
[23] But he who was of the bondwoman, was born according to the flesh: but he of the free woman, was by promise.
[24] Which things are said by an allegory. For these are the two testaments. The one from mount Sina, engendering unto bondage; which is Agar:
[25] For Sina is a mountain in Arabia, which hath affinity to that Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
[26] But that Jerusalem, which is above, is free: which is our mother.
[27] For it is written: Rejoice, thou barren, that bearest not: break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for many are the children of the desolate, more than of her that hath a husband.
[28] Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
[29] But as then he, that was born according to the flesh, persecuted him that was after the spirit; so also it is now.
[30] But what saith the scripture? **Cast out the bondwoman and her son; for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the free woman. **
[31] So then, brethren, we are not the children of the bondwoman, but of the free: by the freedom wherewith Christ has made us free.

 

[Redbandito]

SPOKENWORD:

What is the sacrament of marriage? Is it for two people to live together and not have sexual relations together? Intimecy is the greatest sign of love for each other.Why would God exclude this from Mary and Joseph? Are we not created so that we may bring life into this world? It really doesnt make any sense to me.So what if they did have other children. How does this deminish or degrade them?

Spokenword, you miss the point. For starters, physical intimacy is NOT the greatest love period. St. Paul tells us, “Celibacy” is an objectively higher calling. This does not diminish marriage. Marriage is EXTREMELY holy. You are making a false dichotomy. You assume that if one is thought of as good the other has to be bad. This couldn’t be further from the truth. It’s a both/and approach. Marriage is really holy and celibacy in consecration to Our Lord is even holier. Secondly, you ask the question about diminishing them or degrading them. Again, you miss the point. Nobody is arguing that it would have done such a thing. If that was God’s will for them, it would have been holy to be obedient. However, since it did not happen, we see that they were called to an objectively higher calling. Thus, they were called to live both vocations at the same time.

 

[Mickey]

SPOKENWORD:

Are we not created so that we may bring life into this world?

Some couples are unable to procreate. Does this mean they should have never been born?

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Mickey:

Some couples are unable to procreate. Does this mean they should have never been born?

Hi Mickey,Dont be silly. Thats why there are adoption agencies. God Bless

 

[Tom]

I think we need to take a good look at what “love” is. In our modern society, especially since the early 1960’s we’ve confused love with sex. The terms “free love” and making “love” tend to equate love and sex. They are not the same, one can have sexual relations without the least bit of love, in certain cases, rape or sexual intercourse outside of marriage the sex, actually shows contempt for the other person. As a result of this sexually revolting situation we cannot even consider love without sex, but consider; God so loves us He gave us His only Son, to walk with us and teach us, He didn’t want sex with us, and He loves us. Jesus loves us so much, He gave His life for us on the cross, again, no sex, just love. I truly love several people on this earth (not nearly as many as I should); I would lay down my life for any one of them. There is only one I would have sex with, my wife. Does the fact that I would not consider sex with anyone mean I love them less? Of course not. I’ve been married 31 years, it isn’t the sex that holds us together, it’s the love. This is getting a little off subject, but yes, Mary and Joseph could have been in love with each other and not had sexual relations.

 

[stumbler]

Bates:

I am little troubled by the position the Priest put forward. I don’t know if it was his opinion or the Church position. He said she never sined. This seems beyond reason to me since the Bible clearly states we are all sinners.

I assume you are making reference to Romans 3:23: “…for all have sinned…” Just read a little further on in that epistle. In Romans 9:11, Paul is explaining that Jacob and Esau were sinless before birth. Also, Jesus was fully man and He did not sin. So the “all” of Romans 3:23 must be understood in a way that is not a literal catalog of all humans, but more generally to “mankind”.

For more info:
catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp

Other verses that may help:
Genesis 3:15: “enmity” between the woman and the devil, strongly suggesting full and active rejection of each other
Exodus 25:11: The ark was made of pure gold, for God’s word
Wisdom 1:4: God won’t dwell in a body subject to sin

 

[Curious]

I’ve noticed that same here seem very devoted to Mary and some don’t. What MUST Catholics believe about Mary? Is devotion to her required?

 

[stumbler]

mayra hart:

not only the virgin mary wasgiven the honor of been jesus mother

Just to expand a bit, Jesus in obeying the commandment to “Honor thy father and thy mother” would have done so perfectly. If we are to emulate Jesus in our daily walk with Him, how can we honor Mary perfectly? It seems to me that Protestants who try to diminish Mary do not honor her at all.

 

[Mickey]

SPOKENWORD:

Are we not created so that we may bring life into this world?

Yes I understand that. I have family members who have adopted children. But that doesn’t address your comment.

 

[Tom]

Curious:

I’ve noticed that same here seem very devoted to Mary and some don’t. What MUST Catholics believe about Mary? Is devotion to her required?

You must believe the basic teachings of the Church, she was immaculately conceived, she remained both sinless and a virgin her entire life, she was assumed into heaven. That’s pretty much it, and no, you don’t “need” to do any type of devotion to her.

 

[Redbandito]

Curious:

I’ve noticed that same here seem very devoted to Mary and some don’t. What MUST Catholics believe about Mary? Is devotion to her required?

Devotion is not required. Matters of faith and morals are. Thus, it is required to accept Marian doctrine. It is not required to pray through her or have a specific devotion to her. Although, I think you miss out on a whole lot without this, it is not required.

 

[MaggieOH]

SPOKENWORD:

What is the sacrament of marriage? Is it for two people to live together and not have sexual relations together? Intimecy is the greatest sign of love for each other.Why would God exclude this from Mary and Joseph? Are we not created so that we may bring life into this world? It really doesnt make any sense to me.So what if they did have other children. How does this deminish or degrade them?

Hi Spokenword,

you are correct when you say that the Sacrament of marriage is something tha tis very holy. However, you misunderstand the marriage relationship of Joseph and Mary.

Rather than answer your rhetorical questions I would like to concentrate a moment upon the mystery of the Incarnation.

You are correct when you say that we are created to make copies of ourselves through our children. Sadly, there are many who refuse to take up their role through agreeing to go along with abortion on demand or through contraception.

Mary is a child of God. She belonged solely to God from the beginning of her life. It can be assumed from the words of the Scripture that Mary in fact made a vow of virginity so that she would only serve God. (refer: “How can this be I know not man”). Now marriage in Judaism at that time was not the same as marriage as we know it today. The betrothal was a marriage covenant between the two parties. In Numbers 30, it states that when a daughter makes a vow in her own home and her father hears of it, he can annul the vow that has been made, otherwise the girl must be held to her vow to Yahweh. It repeats the same about a women living in the home of her husband, that upon hearing of the vow, he must annul it or else he is held to that vow, and must not allow it to be broken. If Mary did make a vow of virginity to serve only God, it would be assumed that upon Joseph being picked to be her husband, he was informed of the vow and did not object to it, thus making it binding. Therefore, when Mary and Joseph began living together in the same house, thus completing the second stage of their marriage, it is most likely that they lived in separate rooms.

MaggieOH

 

[mrS4ntA]

Tom:

You must believe the basic teachings of the Church, she was immaculately conceived, she remained both sinless and a virgin her entire life, she was assumed into heaven. That’s pretty much it, and no, you don’t “need” to do any type of devotion to her.

I must add her being the “Theotokos”, God-bearer or “Mother of God”

 

[Tom]

Mary is the new Eve, in Genesis God speaks of both the woman, and her offspring, and the devil and his off spring. You can see this in Gn chap 3 and also in Galatians chap 4 where it refers to Abram, Sara, and Hagar.
Gn 3, 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman,
and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
(note that God places enmity between both the woman and satan and between the womans offspring Jesus and satan. Jesus does indeed crush satan) In reference to Mary being sinless, here is the comparison of the freewoman (from sin in the case of Mary) and the slave (slave of sin Eve)
Galatians chap 4:
[22] For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, and the other by a free woman.
[23] But he who was of the bondwoman, was born according to the flesh: but he of the free woman, was by promise.
[24] Which things are said by an allegory. For these are the two testaments. The one from mount Sina, engendering unto bondage; which is Agar:
[25] For Sina is a mountain in Arabia, which hath affinity to that Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
[26] But that Jerusalem, which is above, is free: which is our mother.
[27] For it is written: Rejoice, thou barren, that bearest not: break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for many are the children of the desolate, more than of her that hath a husband.
[28] Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
[29] But as then he, that was born according to the flesh, persecuted him that was after the spirit; so also it is now.
[30] But what saith the scripture? **Cast out the bondwoman and her son; for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the free woman. **
[31] So then, brethren, we are not the children of the bondwoman, but of the free: by the freedom wherewith Christ has made us free.

 

[Tom]

mrS4ntA:

I must add her being the “Theotokos”, God-bearer or “Mother of God”

Thank you,
Tom

 

[Tom]

The only amplification I would make in Maggies post is that it isn’t an assumption.

MaggieOH:

If Mary did make a vow of virginity to serve only God, it would be assumed that upon Joseph being picked to be her husband, he was informed of the vow and did not object to it, thus making it binding.

That is the purpose of Matthews version being told from the side of Joseph, so we know for a fact that he knows of the vow. Whereupon his acceptance makes it an eternal vow.

 

[Tom]

I just noticed the relationship of Genesis chap 3, Galatians chap 4, and Revelation chap 12
Mary is the new Eve, in Genesis God speaks of both the woman, and her offspring, and the devil and his off spring. You can see this in Gn chap 3
Mary is the new Jerselum of Rev 12
Gn 3, 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman,
and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
(note that God places enmity between both the woman and satan and between the womans offspring Jesus and satan. Jesus does indeed crush satan) In reference to Mary being sinless, here is the comparison of the freewoman (from sin in the case of Mary) and the slave (slave of sin Eve)
Compare these with Rev chap 12. especially; Rev 12 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Galatians chap 4:
[22] For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, and the other by a free woman.
[23] But he who was of the bondwoman, was born according to the flesh: but he of the free woman, was by promise.
[24] Which things are said by an allegory. For these are the two testaments. The one from mount Sina, engendering unto bondage; which is Agar:
[25] For Sina is a mountain in Arabia, which hath affinity to that Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
[26] But that Jerusalem, which is above, is free: which is our mother.
[27] For it is written: Rejoice, thou barren, that bearest not: break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for many are the children of the desolate, more than of her that hath a husband.
[28] Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
[29] But as then he, that was born according to the flesh, persecuted him that was after the spirit; so also it is now.
[30] But what saith the scripture? **Cast out the bondwoman and her son; for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the free woman. **
[31] So then, brethren, we are not the children of the bondwoman, but of the free: by the freedom wherewith Christ has made us free.
Interesting

 

[Tom]

I find it interesting that, Mt and Lk approach the annunciation (of the birth of Jesus) from different perspectives. Mt, Chap 1 addresses the annunciation from Joseph’s side, while Lk Chap 1 addresses it from Mary’s. I think this is very significant when viewed from the OT book of Numbers. To understand the Scriptural support of her perpetual virginity we need to read Scripture from her perspective.
We know Mary is a young teenager engaged to be married to Joseph and will soon be married. We know they are both good and pious Jews. We know Mary has knowledge of how children are conceived (I know not man). We know that at that time being engaged was considered a part of being married. We also know that Mary and Joseph did not yet have sexual relations. The question we must ask ourselves is, did Mary and Joseph intend to have sexual relations after their marriage?
www.drbo.org:

Luke 1:26 And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth, 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. 28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. 29 Who having heard, was troubled at his saying, and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be. 30 And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.

So, put yourself in her place, you’re soon to be married and one night you’re visited by an angel who tells you the Lord is with you, and you’re blessed among women. I think we can all understand her angst.
www.drbo.org:

31 Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus.

O.K. well, I’ll be married, have normal sex with Joe, we’ll conceive and have a son, great news it’s a gonna be a boy. His name is a little strange, God is with us? I might ask about the name.
www.drbo.org:

32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the most High; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father; and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever.

Wow, he shall be the king? The expected Davidic king? I have some serious questions about this!
www.drbo.org:

33 And of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Well, it’s the return of the old Jewish kingdom, and it will last forever, my son will be the great military king the Jewish people have long awaited. Boy do I have questions!!!
www.drbo.org:

34 And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man?

What??? Wait a second!!! All of those things the angel said and she asks how she’s gonna become pregnant??? Because she’s a virgin??? Hello Mary!!! You’re engaged, I’m telling you in the future you’re going to become pregnant, certainly you’re not going to be a virgin in the future when you’re married are you??? Oh, wait, maybe you are. That question of yours, “how shall this be done, because I know not man?” makes absolutely no sense to anyone engaged and planning a normal sexual marriage. It only makes sense, and perfect sense, if you’re NOT planning to have sexual relations. Remember she would be answering the angels message of what would occur in the future, with her future state of virginity, not her present state. Would it make sense for her to answer, well sure, I’m a virgin now but how shall this be when I’m married? Certainly she didn’t think the angel was telling her to fornicate prior to her marriage, that would be a sin. So she had no reason to believe her pregnancy would be other than natural and after her marriage. Why then that nagging question?
www.drbo.org:

35 And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Now he tells me!!! Why did he wait until I made a fool of myself by asking that silly question? Hmmm maybe God wanted me to ask that question so that you folks reading this 2,000 years later would see that I was under a vow of virginity, that I never intended to have sex after my marriage, that Joe understood that, maybe that’s why you had Mark tell the story from Joes perspective. But boy now I REALLY have questions, what do you mean “overshadow” that’s a term meaning impregnate!! The Holy Spirit of God is going to impregnate me???
www.drbo.org:

36 And behold thy cousin Elizabeth, she also hath conceived a son in her old age; and this is the sixth month with her that is called barren: 37 Because no word shall be impossible with God. 38 And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

No questions? Just let it be done?

 

[Tom]

Anyone out there have an answer to the question of why a woman who was planning on having a normal sexual relationship with her husband would be confused that she “shall conceive”?
JA4?