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chero23
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Thank You Jon, Mary is the most important figure outside of the Trinity, thanks to her yes, Salvation came to humanity. Why not be grateful about that.
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jakasaki
Guest
I don’t believe I’m being picky.
You are correct that “Mary’s” name appears 34 times, but my stand is that when they speak about Jesus, they attach “son of Mary” which is 23 times.
Jesus is the only one in the Quran with this attachment to it.
When the Quran speaks of Moses, it doesn’t attach the title … “son of Jochebed”
When the Quran speaks of Abraham, it doesn’t attache the title … "son of Amathalaah
BTW ~
Moses by name is mentioned in the Quran 176 times
Moses by name is mentioned in the Bible 784 times
Jesus is “The Son Of God”…!!!
Yet Moses is big prophet in Islam.
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Kliska
Guest
Not here to argue, just to provide one Protestant perspective. As Jon said, she can indeed be held up to be a model to believers, I have no problem with that, I think she was/is amazing, truly blesses amongst women. She can be our model to show us to do the will of God, then we are truly mother, brother, sister to Jesus.
Lutherans are a peculiar bunch on this. While we teach as doctrine the virgin birth and the Holy Theotokos (the God bearer), we tend to leave the rest to personal piety as we consider it adiaphoron (things indifferent). Hence, some Lutherans, such as myself, who tend to be on the Evangelical Catholic side, accept more readily the Perpetual Virginity, which is confirmed in the confessions, and perhaps other Mariology.
On the Immaculate Conception, I believe that she, God’s grace, was free of sin when she conceived and carried our Lord, but am not tied to this miracle necessarily happening at her conception. Others may think differently.
Jon
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dolphinlove
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MattofTexas
Guest
Protestant beliefs about Mary range, but I think it’s important to note that very few if any Protestants hold any disdain for her as they understand her, but many hold disdain for Catholic and Orthodox teachings about her. They reject the Catholic and Orthodox teachings and thus divorce such beliefs about her from her person. They in no way intend to dishonor her, but in fact often consider themselves to be paying her greater honor by speaking the “truth” about her and by not “making her an idol” as they claim Catholics do.
Protestants believe Mary to be a great example of faith and obedience, and dogmatically believe the was a virgin prior to Christ’s birth.
As a rule Protestants don’t believe in the intercession of the saints, or even if they believe the saints pray for us reject praying to them to pray for us, and thus reject devotion to saints. The Blessed Virgin is not exempt from this, and thus for many Protestants Marian devotion is simply not a part of their faith.
No Hail Mary’s, no Rosary, no kneeling before statues (of anyone, except maybe Jesus). They would consider praying to a human being to be at best unnecessary and at worst idolatry.
Protestants generally reject her immaculate conception and sinlessness (believing every human being except for Jesus to have sinned and citing Romans 3)
Protestants often reject her Assumption and Queenship because these things are not recorded or explicitly taught in the Bible.
Many Protestants reject Mary’s perpetual virginity, believing instead that she and St. Joseph consummated their marriage and had natural children after Jesus, believing this to be supported by the Bible verses that speak of the Lord’s brothers and sisters as well as at least one psalm. Many Protestants are unaware that some Church Fathers’ dismissed such arguments against her perpetual virginity and are also unaware that Luther and others believed her to be a virgin her whole life.
Some Lutherans, Anglicans/Episcopalians, or others may not follow the norm and agree with the Catholic position on some Marian dogmas and even venerate saints.
At the point I’m at in my spiritual journey I now more of less accept the Catholic position on all these issues, though “Ever-Virign” still gives me a bit of pause sometimes.
Protestants believe Mary to be a great example of faith and obedience, and dogmatically believe the was a virgin prior to Christ’s birth.
As a rule Protestants don’t believe in the intercession of the saints, or even if they believe the saints pray for us reject praying to them to pray for us, and thus reject devotion to saints. The Blessed Virgin is not exempt from this, and thus for many Protestants Marian devotion is simply not a part of their faith.
No Hail Mary’s, no Rosary, no kneeling before statues (of anyone, except maybe Jesus). They would consider praying to a human being to be at best unnecessary and at worst idolatry.
Protestants generally reject her immaculate conception and sinlessness (believing every human being except for Jesus to have sinned and citing Romans 3)
Protestants often reject her Assumption and Queenship because these things are not recorded or explicitly taught in the Bible.
Many Protestants reject Mary’s perpetual virginity, believing instead that she and St. Joseph consummated their marriage and had natural children after Jesus, believing this to be supported by the Bible verses that speak of the Lord’s brothers and sisters as well as at least one psalm. Many Protestants are unaware that some Church Fathers’ dismissed such arguments against her perpetual virginity and are also unaware that Luther and others believed her to be a virgin her whole life.
Some Lutherans, Anglicans/Episcopalians, or others may not follow the norm and agree with the Catholic position on some Marian dogmas and even venerate saints.
At the point I’m at in my spiritual journey I now more of less accept the Catholic position on all these issues, though “Ever-Virign” still gives me a bit of pause sometimes.
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dronald
Guest
You’re about dead on. The only two things I wouldn’t agree on is the kneeling before statues of Jesus (we don’t even do this most of the time) and I think the whole, “Mary had other kids” thing is just another argument because they know Catholics don’t believe this.
It’s one of those things where a Protestant wants to say, “Look, Catholics believe this but Jesus had brothers so Catholicism is wrong!” Besides that, I don’t think there’s any reason to believe that Mary had children after Jesus. I don’t even know why this is an argument besides that reason; it’s only a matter of wanting to prove Catholics wrong and digging deep using 21’st century English translations.
I want to shift this discussion just a tad bit:
I feel Catholics are quick to criticize non-apostolic Christians for their lack of Mary devotion and so quick (as evident by this thread) to praise Muslims for honouring her. Non denominational Christians are normally turned off by statues and Saint devotion, prayers, etc because of their lack of understanding of such things. Muslims are no different in regards to Catholicism, as the whole “Mother of God” thing is far more of an unacceptable saying within Islam. Needless to say Mohammed was strictly against any type of image of him in case people would elevate him in any way.
Muslims aren’t even close to understanding Catholicism as most Protestant Religions are. Let’s be honest guys…
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oppositeman
Guest
some one along this line of comments said something very simple yet very profound - Mary was greeted Hail Mary full of Grace - if you are full of Grace there isn’t any room for sin - this is worth thinking about. Of course you could say that was at this moment in her life and later God withdrew the grace and she became a sinner etc. I believe in my heart what the Catholic Church teaches - not in my head but in my heart. If you believe it in your head then that can create all sorts of problems - but for those who believe it in their hearts it sits very beautifully.
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House_Harkonnen
Guest
That’s good.
Lutherans have a strong esteem for Mary. All Lutheran theologians known to me accept Marys perpetual virginity, Luther agreed that she was protected from sin while she carried Jesus.
I tend to agree on these subjects. Others in my denomination disagree. That’s fine too.
Lutherans have a strong esteem for Mary. All Lutheran theologians known to me accept Marys perpetual virginity, Luther agreed that she was protected from sin while she carried Jesus.
I tend to agree on these subjects. Others in my denomination disagree. That’s fine too.
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Kliska
Guest
Just from my perspective, I would have to say that I have never got that feeling from fellow protestants, and I certainly don’t believe He had half-siblings for that reason. Not to argue the point, I’m not interested in doing so, but the teaching centers around James and his place in Jerusalem after his conversion as the leader of the church there, not just interpretation of “brothers” as literal.
For me, being raised protestant and never having heard of the teaching of the perpetual virginity of Mary, as I read the scriptures growing up, I always assumed from them that Mary and Joseph were married in all respects, including consummation, so Jesus’ having half-siblings was never a big deal in my thought processes.
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simspt
Guest
Why does this help you identify with her more? In the Catholic view Mary needed a Saviour just as we do. What she experienced first all Christians will eventually experience. She like all other descendants of Adam had to be redeemed through Christ. All believers in Christ are delivered by his grace from the sin of Adam and all believers in Christ will be raised bodily from the dead. We believe Mary who was the first Christian disciple, the first to profess belief in Christ as revealed by an angel was through Christ’s grace the first Christian to be raised bodily and assumed into heaven and the first to be totally free from Adam’s sin i.e. conceived without sin. These special privileges we believe God gave to Mary are related to the graces of discipleship given through Christ. These privileges all disciples of Jesus will receive. We are delivered from original sin through baptism. We believe Mary was the first to receive the grace of Christ’s redemption from the time of her conception (immaculate conception). The gift of freedom from original sin is a gift to all disciples but the first disciple received it first. Again the bodily Assumption of Mary if understood as being bodily taken into heaven after her death is something that will be given to all Christians eventually. As a former Protestant it was helpful for me to see the two doctrines of the Assumption and Immaculate Conception in the trajectory of discipleship. Catholics recognize the grace given by God to disciples of his Son. Mary is the ultimate disciple and this view completely jives with the Biblical account of her famous words “Be it done according to your word”.
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simspt
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Kliska
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Because truly all humans have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. All humans throughout all time, including Mary. In this sense, it makes more logical connection that we too are called Jesus’ mother in the respect of following His will; remember He proclaimed that those who follow His will are His sisters, brothers, mothers. Notice He never said father. Mary is placed on the same playing-field as us, giving us a human, therefore sinner, model that we can be like; in other words, even though we are sinners we too can be as Mary in her faith. However, we can’t be immaculately conceived.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Ha, not exactly, when you or any of us, in fact give supernatural birth to the Word of God, then perhaps we, as in each one of us may re-think our place in the order of Grace. And this goes for all of Gods Saints also. They are lasting reminders and should be venerated and remembered but not worshipped. They are Gods holy family in the communion of Saints. The same communion we now seek of our earthy journey.
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Kliska
Guest
Mark 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.
It’s an awesome verse to contemplate, along with all the others of course.
It’s an awesome verse to contemplate, along with all the others of course.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
I think what I’m saying is its all awesome to contemplate.
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Kliska
Guest
I agree!
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GaryTaylor
Guest
perhaps Islam will also. We could reach a new human height.
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ClearWater
Guest
I think of it something like in Ezequiel 44.
I, the Lord God of Israel, came through this gate, so it must remain closed forever! No one must ever use it.
I think of it like that with the Blessed Virgin Mary, that God wouldn’t share Mary with Joseph. To think Mary had offspring first with God then with Joseph goes against everything I believe. That, to me, wouldn’t make sense.
We believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary.
Joseph was there to give Jesus an earthly father. Joseph and Mary were never intimate with each other.
We believe Mary was the daughter of God the Father, the mother of Jesus, and spouse of the Holy Spirit. She is the temple, and tabernacle of the Trinity. God would never allow anyone with that kind of a relationship to be impure or sinful.
If Mary had relations with Joseph, it would make her unfaithful to her real spouse, the Holy Spirit, and would be wrong to falsely accuse her of something she didn’t do.
Further, she was not sinful. Jesus came from a pure, immaculate vessel, Mary. She was pure her entire life!
As to Catholics’ relationship with Mary, we venerate and honor her, as I believe you already know. We believe that, at the cross, Christ offered his body, blood, soul and divinity for us but his own mother. We believe she became our spiritual mother, at the cross. Jesus went from referring to her as “woman” and referred to her as John’s mother. We, Catholics, interpret this to mean at that moment, he gave us Mary, our spiritual mother.
Scripture commands us to honor our Father and Mother, be it God the Father, our earthly parents, or Mary, our spiritual mother.
She has been intervening on our behalf since the Wedding at Cana!
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ClearWater
Guest
We Catholics, likewise, believe it would be sinful to worship Mary. We honor her, as the Mother of God, the spouse of the Holy Spirit, and the daughter of God the Father.
When we say the Hail Mary, we are, for the most part, reciting scripture! “Hail Full of Grace, the Lord is with you” is taken directly from the Bible, and was God’s own words to his most perfect creation.
Then, “Blessed is the fruit of thy womb”…is Elizabeth’s words to Mary, likewise, reciting scripture.
Mary responded…“My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord…ALL generations shall call me blessed for the Almighty has done great things for me…”
(All generations except of a few faiths which refuse to),
We, Catholics, call her “Blessed”, but the Protestants don’t seem to want to do that, to honor her in any way. They seem to want to try to diminish her role, ignore her.
We are to call her blessed and honor her!
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