Mary in Islam

[Verisimilitude]

They are a bunch of hypocrites, they say Jesus is an important prophet too but they never say anything when people make bad cartoons of him. They worship Mohammed like an idol which is what having images of him was supposed to prevent.

I am surprised at your response. I welcome it but I am surprised none the less. I wonder if you would be willing to expand that sentiment to other hypocritical aspects regarding Islam.

You may want to point to what you feel is the hypocricy of the RCC in response, which I will be happy to discuss in another thread, but trying to prove Islam right by proving my faith wrong is illogical. Truth should be able to stand all alone or fall under it’s own weight without the use of a proxy.

In that regard some the major hypocritical elements of Islam as I see them are:
1.) The god-like elevation of Mohammed as you noted above when even Mohammed said he was no different than other men and should not be treated any differnt than any other prophet. Moslems include Jesus as a prophet where my faith does not, but I understand the concept.
2.) The myth of Islamic tolerance. It was even stated in this thread by Sister Amy that Islam abhors injustice, violence, terrorism, and discrimination, but each is called for in a justified way in the Quran in the name of allah.
3.) No compulsion in religion. Christian/Catholics, and Jews make up the People of the Book but there are admonishments in the Koran not to take them as friends, to fight them, and to subjugate them to a humiliating tax known as jizya as long as they remian non-Moslem. The Pact of Umar is a significant part to that hypocricy. Non- People of the Book are treated even less than Jews and Christians/Catholics, and it takes two women to equal that of a man in an Islamic court. Though not as widely practiced or reported as such in the last 100 years, it was the normal rule of law for all Islamic nations since the time of Mohammed. To be treated equal to Moslems you had to become Moslem. That means the non-Moslem is treated in an unequal way.

I know many of your arguments if you give them, such as because it is in the Koran it is justified by allah…but keep in mind I do not beleive in the words of your allah or your prophet so the hypocricy is very clear to me. Unless I become Moslem or pay a fee I am subjugated to those elements of your faith that classify me as less worthy of protection and equal rights.

Again, I will be happy to discuss what you see are Catholic hypocricies in another thread but this one is pertinent to this thread and Mary in Islam. Islam is hypocritical when it come to Mary and Jesus. There is no justification to accept the version of history as told in the Koran over that of the NT Scripture. They both cannot be right since they contradict each other in many places, so one is clearly wrong. There are no other options either. The Quran does not provide enough information to give a full account without also accepting most of the NT (& OT). Since the Koran was recorded over 600 years after the events of Jesus and Mary, and the Koran offers itself as the only proof to the story it presents; the blind acceptance of the Quran in the face of more than just the NT to support it’s claim is hypocritical.

If you see the hypocicy of the European riots and how they worship Mohammed differently than they acknowledge Jesus, doesn’t that also give you reason to suspect it false since many many European and Middle/Far Eastern Moslems are taught the same as those who rioted? The famed Islamic college in Egypt and the teachings in Arabia…all teach what those in Europe rioted about. Are they all wrong and you are right? Are you Sunni or Shiite…or other?

I should have asked that first because being other changes the argument.

 

[Sister_Amy]

And who are you calling idol worshippers may i ask?

The Quraysh of Mecca, who rejected the message of Muhammad and adhered to the worship of their idols.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.

You’re welcome. Thanks for taking the time to respond with such courtesy.

1.The only miracle worth mentioning is the Quran. There were no details about the other two miracles (splitting of the moon and night journey to Jerusalem) except for their place in the Quran.

It’s more or less my opinion that the only miracle worth mentioning is the Qur’an. Because that’s the only miracle I can witness. You see, there are others. I could list them… but what proof do you have? I don’t have any proof whatsoever to offer you, except for narrations from people you probably haven’t heard of. Why should you believe that? I wouldn’t ask you to, because there is no substantiating evidence–we must rely on the word of those who saw it, and those who transmitted the story. I consider that, in general, to be weak evidence. Don’t you?

It is hard to rely on stories like that, because you don’t know if someone just made it up… and the same goes for other stories in other religious traditions. Why, for example, should someone believe what is in the Bible, or what the Bible says about something? Or does the Bible prove itself? None of us were witness to Jesus turning water to wine, so why should we believe it?

2.The revelations (Quran) were from Allah because the Quran says so. There is no other proof to show that they were from Allah.

In fact, this sounds very circular. There is other “proof.” When I look at the Qur’an, I see a miracle. I see a miracle in the words, the order of the words even. I see a miracle in the telling of stories which had not been told and couldn’t have been known, and the telling of stories which I had heard before. And the reason I see this all as a miracle, is that there is no possible way for a book like this to have been written in a perfect linguistic style, with not a single edit, over 23 years. And it offers a challenge for proof–one, that there is no “discrepancy.” And also, for someone to bring just a chapter like it, and yet no one has been able to do that.

3.The words of the Qurans are miraculous because it knows the past, the present and the future, things which are not seen by the people at that time.

Among other things. The Qur’an continues to be a miracle with knowledge that people know now but didn’t know then, and surely things which are not known yet. Let us suppose that God has sent a Messenger to mankind, and a Book with him, that proves itself. How do you imagine the Book would prove itself?

While I respect your position on your belief, as a non-Muslim I both find similarity and difference to my religion (Roman Catholic). Just for any future reference and so that you know why I’ll say the thing I say, here are my comments on your explanation:

1. I don’t agree that the Quran is a miracle per se. It is a miracle if you believe it blindly and without question. Your statement in (3) looks like a claim. I’m sure there are factual errors in the Quran. Example – that Mary is the daughter of Aaron. This is gross error as Aaron the brother of Moses lived in an era, millennia of years before Mary. The Quran could not mean that Mary was from the tradition of Aaron, a priest. The explicit mention of Mary the daughter of Aaron obviously to rule out her from any other woman of different father.

This is an excellent example, but it is in fact not a gross error, but an Arabic idiom which has been poorly understood. A person is said to be a brother/sister of a pious person, to mean that they are of that clan or lineage, not that they are a literal brother or sister. And the Qur’an actually says “sister of Aaron” not “daughter of Aaron.” If you like, this page gives references in the NT where similar idioms are used outside of the literal sense, and also an explanation of the idiom in other usages in the Qur’an: islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/External/mary.html

1. I would like some proof and evidence to show me that the words of the Quran were from Allah. A witness for example who saw Mohammad taking dictation from Gabriel. The fact you do not have one makes it problematic for me to be convinced that Allah was the source of those words. Your requirement is belief. How could one believe if one is not convinced the words there are the truth?

There were witnesses, among the Companions of Muhammad, to the revelation. His wife Umm Salamah observed the angel, as did some other Companions in a group including 'Umar (I can’t recall who else was there,sorry) when the angel visited Muhammad for a lesson, although revelation is not involved. There are other witnesses to actual revelation who did not see the angel, but since not all revelation was with the angel being present physically/visibly, we have reports of Muhammad receiving revelation in the company of others and how he would become sweaty, etc during it, and once he was laying on his wife’s knee and she reported that he suddenly became very very heavy so that she thought her leg would be crushed. So you have witnesses. But you did not witness it, so how can I ask you to accept these reports? (These are in authentic “Sahih” books of hadith by the way.) Does this prove to you that the word is true?

1. I agree what’s in the Holy Scripture are what there is. No need elaboration or details. However the miracles mentioned fall short of authenticity and relevance to the message of the Quran. You did not explain the relevance so I take it that there is none.

My apologies for not elaborating in detail. If you want I can revisit this point for more explanation.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

In that regard some the major hypocritical elements of Islam as I see them are:

Other than defending Islam in general as a necessary thing to fulfill God’s promise of a great nation of God for Ishmael, I don’t like to otherwise defend the religion in general since I am mostly solo with the Quran and Bible and disagree with almost all other Muslims on a few issues, like the binding of Isaac, resurrection, necessity of prayer qibla and special movements and routines, etc.

To really accurately defend Islam you have to defend a certain sect, school, Hadith accepted and used to define the Quran, etc. and I’m not into all that stuff.

Likewise I mostly only go after Christianity as a whole for Trinity and tolerance of pagan ideas, and Jews as a whole for rejection of Jesus and tolerance of atheism.

So I can try to address what the Quran says where applicable.

1.) The god-like elevation of Mohammed as you noted above when even Mohammed said he was no different than other men and should not be treated any differnt than any other prophet. Moslems include Jesus as a prophet where my faith does not, but I understand the concept.

Mohammed worship is wrong, yes.

2.) The myth of Islamic tolerance. It was even stated in this thread by Sister Amy that Islam abhors injustice, violence, terrorism, and discrimination, but each is called for in a justified way in the Quran in the name of allah.

We have to put some commands in context of what God allowed and commanded at that time, like commands from Moses to kill and spare no heathen. Or commands from Jesus to obey Pharisees because they sit in Moses’ seat, Jesus isn’t saying to us today that if a Jewish rabbi (spiritual descendants of the Pharisees) tells us to abandon Jesus, we must do it.

Morality can’t be absolute for any believers of the Bible or Quran, morality is what God wants it to be at any given time. If it was absolute, Abraham would have failed the test of being willing to kill his own son for God.

Other commands, you are supposed to be intolerant of sin and are supposed to rebuke sinners and pagans until they repent, but Jesus says as much too.

3.) No compulsion in religion. Christian/Catholics, and Jews make up the People of the Book but there are admonishments in the Koran not to take them as friends, to fight them, and to subjugate them to a humiliating tax known as jizya as long as they remian non-Moslem.

Again, context of where we are. Fight them with God’s Word and beautiful preaching. They will tax and humiliate themselves with their own false doctrine.

 

[paarsurrey]

In my opinion these words are not spoken by God himself. It seems a peson was telling / recounting what was spoken by someone else purported as Allah.

Hi

If you read Quran then you would know it is a style of the Arabic language.

Thankt

 

[dolphinlove]

It’s more or less my opinion that the only miracle worth mentioning is the Qur’an. Because that’s the only miracle I can witness. You see, there are others. I could list them… but what proof do you have?

Well if there are others, why not list them? Is it because there is no proof to substantiate them? We are not the ones that need proof, we are asking you to provide proof about Islam being the truth. As Catholics, we have seen MANY miracles, but even though we have, we dont need proof to believe Jesus is the son of God.

I don’t have any proof whatsoever to offer you, except for narrations from people you probably haven’t heard of. Why should you believe that? I wouldn’t ask you to, because there is no substantiating evidence–we must rely on the word of those who saw it, and those who transmitted the story. I consider that, in general, to be weak evidence. Don’t you?

For the qu’ran, this is weak evidence, since the whole book only came from one man, who evidently, had no witnesses. And in saying that, are you also saying the qu’ran is weak and has no real evidence?
For the bible however, the witnesses are the ones that were with Jesus, himself. Why would the Son of God choose to relay his teachings to a bunch of liars? And i know that Islam relies on the bible as well, so why would Mohammed used a book made up by people whose stories MIGHT be false???
Im sorry, but the evidence that the bible is the true word of God far outweighs the evidence the qu’ran claims to have.
Here and here
are a couple of good links to get you started in investigating the origin of the bible, I hope you enjoy!
God bless

 

[Reuben_J]

Hi

If you read Quran then you would know it is a style of the Arabic language.

Thankt

I do not understand Arabic. Is there any hope for someone like me then? To me the verses written are said by a narrator thus contradicting the claim that they are written verbatim words of God.

Since I don’t believe they are words of God by the style they were written, I therefore do not wish to pursue it any further. So is there any hope for a person like me?

 

[paarsurrey]

I do not understand Arabic. Is there any hope for someone like me then? To me the verses written are said by a narrator thus contradicting the claim that they are written verbatim words of God.
Since I don’t believe they are words of God by the style they were written, I therefore do not wish to pursue it any further. So is there any hope for a person like me?

Hi

There is every hope for anybody who is in search of truth, while remaining steadfast on what one has already got. You don’t have to study Quran in Arabic, to start with. Start reading a translation in Arabic, and you would know the style. You could start with:
www3.alislam.org/index.jsp
I think it would help you.
May GodAllahYHWH bless you!

Thanks

 

[dolphinlove]

Hi

There is every hope for anybody who is in search of truth, while remaining steadfast on what one has already got. You don’t have to study Quran in Arabic, to start with. Start reading a translation in Arabic, and you would know the style. You could start with:
www3.alislam.org/index.jsp
I think it would help you.
May GodAllahYHWH bless you!

Thanks

What about people who have read the quran and dont find it truthful in the way you do paars?

 

[paarsurrey]

What about people who have read the quran and dont find it truthful in the way you do paars?

Hi

They should stay peacefully where they find truth, no compulsion.

Thanks

 

[dolphinlove]

Hi

They should stay peacefully where they find truth, no compulsion.

Thanks

Ive said this many times, even though we do not believe in the same things, you are always peaceful with your responses.
God be with you always

 

[paarsurrey]

Ive said this many times, even though we do not believe in the same things, you are always peaceful with your responses.
God be with you always

Hi

Thanks for your appreciation.

Regards

 

[Booklover]

Originally posted by FaithofAbraham:

Other than defending Islam in general as a necessary thing to fulfill God’s promise of a great nation of God for Ishmael, I don’t like to otherwise defend the religion in general since I am mostly solo with the Quran and Bible and disagree with almost all other Muslims on a few issues, like the binding of Isaac, resurrection, necessity of prayer qibla and special movements and routines, etc.

All that God promised was to make a great nation through Ishmael, but I see no connection between that and Islam. You’re reading more into it than what is actually promised.

Vickie

 

[Reuben_J]

You’re welcome. Thanks for taking the time to respond with such courtesy.

I’d like to keep discussion like this civil as long as it takes though it can always turn ugly considering the differences in our religions respectively. At least when it gets sour we know it’s not always the intention. Hopefully it does not have to be.

It’s more or less my opinion that the only miracle worth mentioning is the Qur’an. Because that’s the only miracle I can witness. You see, there are others. I could list them… but what proof do you have? I don’t have any proof whatsoever to offer you, except for narrations from people you probably haven’t heard of. Why should you believe that? I wouldn’t ask you to, because there is no substantiating evidence–we must rely on the word of those who saw it, and those who transmitted the story. I consider that, in general, to be weak evidence. Don’t you?

It is hard to rely on stories like that, because you don’t know if someone just made it up… and the same goes for other stories in other religious traditions. Why, for example, should someone believe what is in the Bible, or what the Bible says about something? Or does the Bible prove itself? None of us were witness to Jesus turning water to wine, so why should we believe it?

In fact, this sounds very circular. There is other “proof.” When I look at the Qur’an, I see a miracle. I see a miracle in the words, the order of the words even. I see a miracle in the telling of stories which had not been told and couldn’t have been known, and the telling of stories which I had heard before. And the reason I see this all as a miracle, is that there is no possible way for a book like this to have been written in a perfect linguistic style, with not a single edit, over 23 years. And it offers a challenge for proof–one, that there is no “discrepancy.” And also, for someone to bring just a chapter like it, and yet no one has been able to do that.

In other word, you believe in the Quran because you believe. It’s not about proof or evidence. Right?

For the last few days my intention was to get you guys to tell me what are the criterias for you to confirm that the Quran is from God or Mohammad was God’s prophet. In a nutshell there is really no equivocal evidence to prove them. It all boils to belief by the adherence concerned. I am glad that I found that from you because I thought all along it has to be that way.

You pre-empt me when you begin to refer to the Bible. Like we always need an assurance that others would be probably the same!

Muslim posters would unreasonably apply such impossible standard to critique the Bible. They would not take anything there as truth unless there is photographic evidence to confirm them. If Muslims cannot apply this same standard to the Quran or their prophet Mohammad, isn’t this very hypocritical for them to examine the Bible with standards that the Quran won’t stand on?

Among other things. The Qur’an continues to be a miracle with knowledge that people know now but didn’t know then, and surely things which are not known yet. Let us suppose that God has sent a Messenger to mankind, and a Book with him, that proves itself. How do you imagine the Book would prove itself?

We can say this about the Bible too, can’t we?

This is an excellent example, but it is in fact not a gross error, but an Arabic idiom which has been poorly understood. A person is said to be a brother/sister of a pious person, to mean that they are of that clan or lineage, not that they are a literal brother or sister. And the Qur’an actually says “sister of Aaron” not “daughter of Aaron.” If you like, this page gives references in the NT where similar idioms are used outside of the literal sense, and also an explanation of the idiom in other usages in the Qur’an: islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/External/mary.html

My mistake. Noted. Guess I am having premature STML (short term memory loss).

Though I understand the use of such language, this still presents some doubt. Like you said, you do not have sufficient details in the Quran to clarify this. It can be an idiom or it can mean literally. Perpetrator would ask why no clarification was given if it is meant to be just an idiom?

There were witnesses, among the Companions of Muhammad, to the revelation. His wife Umm Salamah observed the angel, as did some other Companions in a group including 'Umar (I can’t recall who else was there,sorry) when the angel visited Muhammad for a lesson, although revelation is not involved. …

Strictly speaking, just hearsay.

My apologies for not elaborating in detail. If you want I can revisit this point for more explanation.

Please do, it would be useful.

Peace.

 

[Reuben_J]

FaithofAbraham:

3.) No compulsion in religion. Christian/Catholics, and Jews make up the People of the Book but there are admonishments in the Koran not to take them as friends, to fight them, and to subjugate them to a humiliating tax known as jizya as long as they remian non-Moslem.

Again, context of where we are. Fight them with God’s Word and beautiful preaching. They will tax and humiliate themselves with their own false doctrine.

I know we do sometimes try to justify difficult verses but this is ridiculous, FOA. What context? Please show us the context.

 

[Reuben_J]

Hi

There is every hope for anybody who is in search of truth, while remaining steadfast on what one has already got. You don’t have to study Quran in Arabic, to start with. Start reading a translation in Arabic, and you would know the style. You could start with:
www3.alislam.org/index.jsp
I think it would help you.
May GodAllahYHWH bless you!

Thanks

Were not the verses that I mentioned translation in Arabic?

Why are God’s words so difficult to translate? I mean, so often did I hear that Islam is a simple religion. How so?

 

[hamba2han]

… In other word, you believe in the Quran because you believe. It’s not about proof or evidence. Right?..

Wrong!, Muslims do indeed have unmistakable proof of who the real Author of the Qur’an is.

However, the key to discovering the Truth from the Creator is that there must be a sincere desire to find it on the part of the creation who wishes to seek this Truth.

Anything less than 100% sincerity would very likely result in failure to recognise this Truth even if it were to come up right in front of this “seeker of the Truth” and bit him on his nose.

 

[Booklover]

Wrong!, Muslims do indeed have unmistakable proof of who the real Author of the Qur’an is.

However, the key to discovering the Truth from the Creator is that there must be a sincere desire to find it on the part of the creation who wishes to seek this Truth.

Anything less than 100% sincerity would very likely result in failure to recognise this Truth even if it were to come up right in front of this “seeker of the Truth” and bit him on his nose.

You’re just rehashing the same old stuff which proves absolutely nothing. The only actual proof you have is that Muhammad said it was the word of God. Other than that, you have nothing. You’re basically saying that if someone sincerely wants to believe something, presto, it’s the truth!

Vickie

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Originally posted by FaithofAbraham:

All that God promised was to make a great nation through Ishmael, but I see no connection between that and Islam. You’re reading more into it than what is actually promised.

Vickie

Judaism and Christianity are to Isaac what Islam is to Ishmael. Muslims have always identified with Ishmael, you know that.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Point of fact.

I, Sister Amy, cannot prove to anyone here, anyone anywhere, that the Qur’an is the word of God. I can’t convince you. I’m not trying to convince you. I just wanted to say that up front.

But I do BELIEVE that the Qur’an is a miracle. You could say that I am convinced of it. But not because any man convinced me, rather just because I read it and believed it.

One miraculous feature of the Qur’an is the verses about iron. Only recently have scientists declared that most of the iron on earth actually came from collisions with asteroids. This is not something that could be known by Muhammad or in his time, but yet the Qur’an says that iron was sent down from the skies.

Another miraculous feature of the Qur’an is the knowledge of stories in the Bible, despite no Arabic Bible being available to Muhammad, despite the fact he was illiterate and not learned in religion at all. In fact, rather than copying the stories as some have alleged, there are slight changes–why? Corrections.

Another miraculous feature of the Qur’an is the knowledge of stories which did NOT appear in the Bible, such as the birth of Mary, or some prophets which aren’t even mentioned in Biblical or Jewish traditions.

Another miraculous feature of the Qur’an is that when the Jews came to Muhammad asking him three questions, to prove that he was a true prophet, a chapter of the Qur’an was revealed to answer them in detail, although there was no possible way Muhammad could have known those stories (they do not appear in the Bible.)

Another miraculous feature is that Muhammad was illiterate, and yet he is the Messenger–there is no possible way for him to have authored such a long and comprehensive book, covering such a variety of subjects. He couldn’t ever write it down to edit it, and yet even as he recited it to the people, it was so powerful that none of them ever so much as suggested a correction, even if they refused to believe in it!

Another miraculous feature is how the people of Mecca were made to prostrate at listening to the recitation of the Qur’an, even if they didn’t believe.

And how the Jews admitted that Muhammad was a prophet but they refused to accept him and chose to fight him instead! And how the people of Mecca admitted he was a prophet but they were jealous the revelation came to him and not them so they refused the religion!

Though like I said, I can’t convince you. You MUST examine it yourself and decide for yourself. But unless you read it, and sincerely read it, not a piece here and there–unless you read it, you’re not equipped to make that decision.