Mary in the Mind of God

[oppositeman]

I just find this so profound, that I want to share it with others

The Little Office of the BVM - Monday Morning Prayers

Proverbs 8:22-31

"The LORD begot me, the firstborn of his ways,
the forerunner of his prodigies of long ago;

From of old I was poured forth,
at the first, before the earth.

When there were no depths I was brought forth,
when there were no fountains or springs of water;

Before the mountains were settled into place,
before the hills, I was brought forth;

While as yet the earth and the fields were not made,
nor the first clods of the world."

"When he established the heavens I was there,
when he marked out the vault over the face of the deep;

When he made firm the skies above,
when he fixed fast the foundations of the earth;

When he set for the sea its limit,
so that the waters should not transgress his command;

Then was I beside him as his craftsman,
and I was his delight day by day,

Playing before him all the while,
playing on the surface of his earth;
and I found delight in the sons of men."

 

[oppositeman]

Am I to understand that Mary was beside the Holy Trinity at the foundation of creation? That she was created before creation?

 

[Vico]

It is beautiful. Another that ties to Proverbs 8:22-31 is:

Colossians 1:15-17 (NABRE)

II. The Preeminence of Christ
His Person and Work

15 [a]He is the image** of the invisible God,
the firstborn of all creation.
16 For in him[c] were created all things in heaven and on earth,
the visible and the invisible,
whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers;
all things were created through him and for him.
17 He is before all things,
and in him all things hold together.

Footnotes:

[a] 1:15–20 As the poetic arrangement indicates, these lines are probably an early Christian hymn, known to the Colossians and taken up into the letter from liturgical use (cf. Phil 2:6–11; 1 Tm 3:16). They present Christ as the mediator of creation (Col 1:15–18a) and of redemption (Col 1:18b–20). There is a parallelism between firstborn of all creation (Col 1:15) and firstborn from the dead (Col 1:18). While many of the phrases were at home in Greek philosophical use and even in gnosticism, the basic ideas also reflect Old Testament themes about Wisdom found in Prv 8:22–31; Wis 7:22–8:1; and Sir 1:4. See also notes on what is possibly a hymn in Jn 1:1–18.

** 1:15 Image: cf. Gn 1:27. Whereas the man and the woman were originally created in the image and likeness of God (see also Gn 1:26), Christ as image (2 Cor 4:4) of the invisible God (Jn 1:18) now shares this new nature in baptism with those redeemed (cf. Col 3:10–11).

[c] 1:16–17 Christ (though not mentioned by name) is preeminent and supreme as God’s agent in the creation of all things (cf. Jn 1:3), as prior to all things (Col 1:17; cf. Hb 1:3).****

 

[oppositeman]

It is beautiful. Another that ties to Proverbs 8:22-31 is:

Colossians 1:15-17 (NABRE)

II. The Preeminence of Christ
His Person and Work

15 [a]He is the image** of the invisible God,
the firstborn of all creation.
16 For in him[c] were created all things in heaven and on earth,
the visible and the invisible,
whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers;
all things were created through him and for him.
17 He is before all things,
and in him all things hold together.

Footnotes:

[a] 1:15–20 As the poetic arrangement indicates, these lines are probably an early Christian hymn, known to the Colossians and taken up into the letter from liturgical use (cf. Phil 2:6–11; 1 Tm 3:16). They present Christ as the mediator of creation (Col 1:15–18a) and of redemption (Col 1:18b–20). There is a parallelism between firstborn of all creation (Col 1:15) and firstborn from the dead (Col 1:18). While many of the phrases were at home in Greek philosophical use and even in gnosticism, the basic ideas also reflect Old Testament themes about Wisdom found in Prv 8:22–31**; Wis 7:22–8:1; and Sir 1:4. See also notes on what is possibly a hymn in Jn 1:1–18.

** 1:15 Image: cf. Gn 1:27. Whereas the man and the woman were originally created in the image and likeness of God (see also Gn 1:26), Christ as image (2 Cor 4:4) of the invisible God (Jn 1:18) now shares this new nature in baptism with those redeemed (cf. Col 3:10–11).

[c] 1:16–17 Christ (though not mentioned by name) is preeminent and supreme as God’s agent in the creation of all things (cf. Jn 1:3), as prior to all things (Col 1:17; cf. Hb 1:3).**

but this is titled in the Little Office of the BVM" - “Mary in the Mind of God”
this is speaking of Mary not Jesus - or do I misunderstand the meaning of this scripture?

 

[oppositeman]

Mary is the firstborn of creatures - “The LORD begot me, the firstborn of his ways,
the forerunner of his prodigies of long ago” - the forerunner being the first - “his prodigies” I think means His saints to follow - Mary is the greatest of Saints.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Mary is the firstborn of creatures - “The LORD begot me, the firstborn of his ways,
the forerunner of his prodigies of long ago” - the forerunner being the first - “his prodigies” I think means His saints to follow - Mary is the greatest of Saints.

Proverbs is speaking of Jesus not Mary. However the Virgin Mother of God is deeply concerned in this prophecy, and is appropriate to the Little Office of the BVM.

However, another level of meaning, could be applied to the BVM (or anyone for that matter) since we are all known to God from the beginning, even before our birth.

But the first lines: “The LORD begot me, the firstborn of his ways,the forerunner of his prodigies of long ago; From of old I was poured forth, at the first, before the earth.” applies only to Jesus or to be even more exact, the Son of God, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, The Only Begotten Son.

 

[GEddie]

She was no doubt in His mind, but not “alive” as a human being.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Upgrade25]

Proverbs is speaking of Jesus not Mary. However the Virgin Mother of God is deeply concerned in this prophecy, and is appropriate to the Little Office of the BVM.

However, another level of meaning, could be applied to the BVM (or anyone for that matter) since we are all known to God from the beginning, even before our birth.

But the first lines: “The LORD begot me, the firstborn of his ways,the forerunner of his prodigies of long ago; From of old I was poured forth, at the first, before the earth.” applies only to Jesus or to be even more exact, the Son of God, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, The Only Begotten Son.

Thank you for clearing that up.

 

[friardchips]

Proverbs is speaking of Jesus not Mary. However the Virgin Mother of God is deeply concerned in this prophecy, and is appropriate to the Little Office of the BVM.

However, another level of meaning, could be applied to the BVM (or anyone for that matter) since we are all known to God from the beginning, even before our birth.

But the first lines: “The LORD begot me, the firstborn of his ways,the forerunner of his prodigies of long ago; From of old I was poured forth, at the first, before the earth.” applies only to Jesus or to be even more exact, the Son of God, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, The Only Begotten Son.

Could you elaborate?

I think there are mystical depths that when speaking of Proverbs we have to be careful not to stamp our own understanding on it too quickly. As Geddie said, Our Lady was in the mind of the Creator at the start, as the beginnings of the Church.

 

[oppositeman]

She was no doubt in His mind, but not “alive” as a human being.

ICXC NIKA

could she have been “alive” as a spiritual being before being alive in the flesh? Could she have been beside God at the foundation of creation?

 

[oppositeman]

well - then if it refers only to Christ I wonder why it is titled “Mary in the mind of God” if it’s not about her

 

[friardchips]

could she have been “alive” as a spiritual being before being alive in the flesh? Could she have been beside God at the foundation of creation?

Our Lady is the Immaculate Conception. These are divine mysteries. There are various saints you can read up on that plunge the mystical depths of truth and treat such wisdom with appropriate reverence. Our Lady is not the Creator. But, she is the Immaculate Conception. Meaning that her eternal majesty was a special secret kept safe in the Heart of our Creator until such time that her motherhood was lived and then professed. Please read up on ‘Marion Saints’.

 

[oppositeman]

Our Lady is the Immaculate Conception. These are divine mysteries. There are various saints you can read up on that plunge the mystical depths of truth and treat such wisdom with appropriate reverence. Our Lady is not the Creator. But, she is the Immaculate Conception. Meaning that her eternal majesty was a special secret kept safe in the Heart of our Creator until such time that her motherhood was lived and then professed. Please read up on ‘Marion Saints’.

I fully understand that she is 100% creature and not divine - I believe there is much that we do not have knowledge and/or it’s understanding is beyond human comprehension. God has created her perfect, in every way, through grace - which makes her unique. I never think that I fully understand any piece of scripture - God is so fascinating !!

 

[Memaw]

Am I to understand that Mary was beside the Holy Trinity at the foundation of creation? That she was created before creation?

Not physically but in the MIND of God, yes, HE knows everything! Another beautiful Mystery!! God Bless, Memaw

 

[friardchips]

I fully understand that she is 100% creature and not divine - I believe there is much that we do not have knowledge and/or it’s understanding is beyond human comprehension. God has created her perfect, in every way, through grace - which makes her unique. I never think that I fully understand any piece of scripture - God is so fascinating !!

I would advise to keep praying on the matter. Our Lady is the Spouse of the Holy Spirit. You can have no better teacher - Our Lady’s motherhood is eternal due to her being the Immaculate Conception - other than the Creator Himself, but then, she is His Handmaiden, Mother and Spouse, so we can just say that there is no better teacher because of what He has done for her. And so for us. Her Motherhood is Divine, kept safe for her and us, in Him. And maybe proverbs speaks back in time, so to speak, through the Holy Spirit, from her soul entwined with that of the Creator, for with the Creator, time holds no boundary. The saints will rightly tell you that graces pass through her hands. You are also right about Scripture and the eternal well of wisdom that it contains - it is great you’re so inspired. Let the inspiration and awareness develop - in “height, breadth, length and depth”!

 

[oppositeman]

I would advise to keep praying on the matter. Our Lady is the Spouse of the Holy Spirit. You can have no better teacher - Our Lady’s motherhood is eternal due to her being the Immaculate Conception - other than the Creator Himself, but then, she is His Handmaiden, Mother and Spouse, so we can just say that there is no better teacher because of what He has done for her. And so for us. Her Motherhood is Divine, kept safe for her and us, in Him. And maybe proverbs speaks back in time, so to speak, through the Holy Spirit, from her soul entwined with that of the Creator, for with the Creator, time holds no boundary. The saints will rightly tell you that graces pass through her hands. You are also right about Scripture and the eternal well of wisdom that it contains - it is great you’re so inspired. Let the inspiration and awareness develop - in “height, breadth, length and depth”!

ha ha ha!! - thanks for your reply - I am so inspired by our MOM that I have contacted a Catholic theologian I know on Facebook to get his take on it !!!

 

[Todd977]

could she have been “alive” as a spiritual being before being alive in the flesh? Could she have been beside God at the foundation of creation?

I don’t think so. The Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraphs 366 and 382, says that the “soul is created immediately by God.” I’m pretty sure that means that the human soul is created at the time of conception not before. I’m not sure about the souls of twins, whether they are both created at conception or one is created at conception and another is created later when the twinning takes place.

 

[oppositeman]

I don’t think so. The Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraphs 366 and 382, says that the “soul is created immediately by God.” I’m pretty sure that means that the human soul is created at the time of conception not before. I’m not sure about the souls of twins, whether they are both created at conception or one is created at conception and another is created later when the twinning takes place.

not long ago I asked Jesus about how much more could we understand about the mysteries of God - He replied “Not much” - ha ha ha!!

 

[Memaw]

I don’t think so. The Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraphs 366 and 382, says that the “soul is created immediately by God.” I’m pretty sure that means that the human soul is created at the time of conception not before. I’m not sure about the souls of twins, whether they are both created at conception or one is created at conception and another is created later when the twinning takes place.

All are created at the moment of Conception. Why in the world would some be created later??? God Bless, Memaw

 

[GEddie]

All are created at the moment of Conception. Why in the world would some be created later??? God Bless, Memaw

Because in the case of identical twins, either the second soul is formed when the zygote divides in two, or that zygote for a time holds two human souls.

ICXC NIKA