Mary is Alive?

[Zooey]

When I was a little girl, I was in a terrible car accident. They actually pronounced me dead 3 different times…
Anyhow, at some point in all of this, I had a classic Near Death Experience, but of course, I didn’t know that then… I was running somewhere, really fast, & I got lost, & this beautiful woman in a long dress took me by the hand & led me along. I looked down, & saw “me”–my body. She said, “You need to go back now”.
I heard someone say, “Nope, she’s gone”, & I yelled, “No, I’m not, I’m right here!!”…and that was the last of me “dying”.
I would think about this, through my life, wondering what I had seen. I read about NDEs, & that was when I knew what that was that had happened. I just didn’t know who the woman was. (Remember that I am the Friendly Neighborhood Methodist).
Then, I saw a picture of Our Lady of Guadelupe…If that isn’t a miraculous portrait, it has to be 2000 years old, because it would have had to have been painted from life. By the best artist in the world.
Now that I think of it, maybe that’s why I make rosaries.

God bless all here.

 

[Eireann]

On another thread I asserted that many on this forum would say they have actually met Mary - the living, breathing person, the Blessed Virgin. That one. You know, the Mother of God. Jesus’ Mother.

No never met her, apart from the picture in my house, had a dream about it.
Mary was crying in it, the tears didn’t flow out of the corner of her eyes, they flowed from the bottom of her eyes.
I was heat-broken and begged her not to cry, the tears dried up in an instant and she began to smile, that’s about it, no Apparition of Mary.

I remember reading in a newspaper here years ago about a child falling down a well.

Not sure but it may have been under the water for half an hour, the father was going crazy.

All of a sudden the child sat up in the water, perfectly ok, when quizzed the child said “Oh I was talking to the Blue lady” not sure if this was in Italy, but the cutting is probably in my attic, don’t see it on the net.

 

[Truthstalker]

Some of you may already know what my position on this is… but here it is anyway…

Mary’s earthly body is dead, in the ground. But, according to the scriptures, if she was saved she is present with the Lord. In that sense, everyone who is dead is alive.

From the persepective of eternity, the beginning of time and the end of time have already happened, so everyone who has died is already resurrected and reside and those who are saved have put on incorruptible bodies.

But, from our perspective (in time not eternity)… Mary’s body has not been resurrected so she can only be said to be alive spiritually in heaven (with the Lord).

I realize that Catholics don’t rely on the Bible for their sole source of truth, but Biblically there are only two people who have never died… Enoch, and Elijah. Ironically there will eventually be two witnessness to the Jews who will be killed.

Anyone who claims to have interacted with a glorified / incoruptible Mary, should be careful that they are not interacting with an imposter. It is well known that demons pose as prominent Biblical figures to deceive unsuspecting followers.

BA

John,

I appreciate the irenic tone of your post.

Mary’s earthly body is dead, in the ground

Chapter and verse, please, if you must prove everything from Scripture.

It is well known that demons pose as prominent Biblical figures to deceive unsuspecting followers.

Sort of a reverse Halloween? Again, chapter and verse, please.

If you cannot provide chapter and verse that states exactly what you are stating then you are relying on an interpretation, which requires an extra-Biblical framework, i.e, a tradition of some sort.

Those who are now in the Presence of the Lord are more alive than those still on earth. Jesus has His physical body in heaven, so it is possible Mary, Enoch and Elijah are there as well. Many believe in the rapture; why couldn’t Mary have gotten an early ticket?

Where Scripture is silent it is not authoritative, so one must turn elsewhere to determine the truth of something. Nowhere, for example, in the BIble does it say toads have warts, but we know that from observation. Nor does the Bible tell us what eventually happened to Lazarus, or the apostles. Those things we learn elsewhere. So, with Church history telling us what happened to Mary, one does not abandon Sola Scriptura, for example, in accepting the conclusion that there was an Assumption of her body.

What clinched this for me was the relic problem. In the Middle Ages there were relics galore: somehow the bones of various saints were multiplied, in different churches, scattered throughout Europe. At one point Roman cemeteries were being raided so the relics could be sold, or so I’ve been told. The closer to Christ a saint was, the more powerful the relic. Given Mary’s place in the Catholic Church, her bones would have been a hot item. Searched for. Discovered. Sold. There would have been three skulls, eight arms, fourteen legs, etc., scattered throughout Europe. But read Calvin’s Treatise on Relics, where he cites the number and location of various relics. They had a comb, gowns, head-dresses, and other things they claimed belonged to her, but not one bone, nothing of her person itself. The idea that she was assumed goes back so far and was so widely accepted, that no one could have peddled the idea (literally) that he had part of her corpse. So where was it? The easiest and most credible solution is that it is where the Church has always said it is: with her, in heaven, alive. The Church has always said she was assumed.

 

[bibleapologist]

Truthstalker,

For me to say that Mary’s body is in the ground somewhere decomposing is no more unbiblical than for the Catholic Church to state dogmatically that she has been assumed.

There is just as much lack of evidence of her assumption as there is of her remaining in the grave… no-one saw her ascend and no-one can say she was definitely buried in a place that she can no longer be found.

As far as the demon posession thing… I have seen it first hand, and I have recorded evidence on an audio tape. A demon calling himself Ezekiel. In fact, this demon is very popular in St. Louis and is channelled through a woman who works as a liason with the St. Louis police dept. Of course this is not the only case of this. Channellers more often than not, tend to bring about “spirits” who claim the name of an Old Testament prophet. These demons do this to gain the trust of the one who is being deceived.

BA

 

[Mannyfit75]

Truthstalker,

For me to say that Mary’s body is in the ground somewhere decomposing is no more unbiblical than for the Catholic Church to state dogmatically that she has been assumed.

There is just as much lack of evidence of her assumption as there is of her remaining in the grave… no-one saw her ascend and no-one can say she was definitely buried in a place that she can no longer be found.

As far as the demon posession thing… I have seen it first hand, and I have recorded evidence on an audio tape. A demon calling himself Ezekiel. In fact, this demon is very popular in St. Louis and is channelled through a woman who works as a liason with the St. Louis police dept. Of course this is not the only case of this. Channellers more often than not, tend to bring about “spirits” who claim the name of an Old Testament prophet. These demons do this to gain the trust of the one who is being deceived.

BA

History, Christian shows that Mary left and was raptured up into heaven by God. Most of the early Christians claimed the bombs of the Apostles but none could find any of Mary’s bones or remains. When the Emperor’s wife wanted to recover Mary’s body, they could not find one.

Mary, body and soul is no longer on earth. Find the body of Mary to prove your case.

There is proof.

uoregon.edu/~sshoemak/texts/dormitionG2/dormitionG2.htm John the Theologian and Apostle, The Dormition of the Holy Theotokos

 

[quasimodo]

Matthew 22:32

I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living."

Are Abraham and Isaac living?

 

[Mannyfit75]

The Account of St. John, the Apostle the Theologian
of the Dormition of the Holy Mother of God

As the all-holy glorious mother of God and ever-virgin Mary, as was her wont, was going to the holy tomb of our Lord to burn incense, and bending her holy knees, she was importunate that Christ our God who had been born of her should return to her. And the Jews, seeing her lingering by the divine sepulchre, came to the chief priests, saying: Mary goes every day to the tomb. And the chief priests, having summoned the guards set by them not to allow any one to pray at the holy sepulchre, inquired about her, whether in truth it were so. And the guards answered and said that they had seen no such thing, God having not allowed them to see her when there. And on one of the days, it being the preparation, the holy Mary, as was her wont, came to the sepulchre; and while she was praying, it came to pass that the heavens were opened, and the archangel Gabriel came down to her and said: Hail, thou that didst bring forth Christ our God! Thy prayer having come through to the heavens to Him who was born of thee, has been accepted; and from this time, according to thy request, thou having left the world, shall go to the heavenly places to thy Son, into the true and everlasting life.

And having heard this from the holy archangel, she returned to holy Bethlehem, having along with her three virgins who ministered unto her. And after having rested a short time, she sat up and said to the virgins: Bring me a censer, that I may pray. And they brought it, as they had been commanded. And she prayed, saying: My Lord Jesus Christ, who didst deign through Thy supreme goodness to be born of me, hear my voice, and send me Thy apostle John, in order that, seeing him, I may partake of joy; and send me also the rest of Thy apostles, both those who have already gone to Thee, and those in the world that now is, in whatever country they may be, through Thy holy commandment, in order that, having beheld them, I may bless Thy name much to be praised; for I am confident that Thou hearest Thy servant in everything.

And while she was praying, I John came, the Holy Spirit having snatched me up by a cloud from Ephesus, and set me in the place where the mother of my Lord was lying. And having gone in beside her, and glorified Him who had been born of her, I said: Hail, mother of my Lord, who didst bring forth Christ our God, rejoice that in great glory thou art going out of this life. And the holy mother of God glorified God, because I John had come to her, remembering the voice of the Lord, saying: Behold thy mother, and, Behold thy son. And the three virgins came and worshipped. And the holy mother of God says to me: Pray, and cast incense. And I prayed thus: Lord Jesus Christ, who hast done wonderful things, now also do wonderful things before her who brought Thee forth; and let Thy mother depart from this life; and let those who crucified Thee, and who have not believed in Thee, be confounded. And after I had ended the prayer, holy Mary said to me: Bring me the censer. And having cast incense, she said, Glory to Thee, my God and my Lord, because there has been fulfilled in me whatsoever Thou didst promise to me before thou didst ascend into the heavens, that when I should depart from this world Thou wouldst come to me, and the multitude of Thine angels, with glory. And I John say to her: Jesus Christ our Lord and our God is coming, and thou seest Him, as He promised to thee. And the holy mother of God answered and said to me: The Jews have sworn that after I have died they will burn my body. And I answered and said to her: Thy holy and precious body will by no means see corruption. And she answered and said to me: Bring a censer, and cast incense, and pray. And there came a voice out of the heavens saying the Amen. And I John heard this voice; and the Holy Spirit said to me: John, hast thou heard this voice that spoke in the heaven after the prayer was ended? And I answered and said: Yes, I heard. And the Holy Spirit said to me: This voice which thou didst hear denotes that the appearance of thy brethren the apostles is at hand, and of the holy powers that they are coming hither to-day.

((continue))

 

[Mannyfit75]

And at this I John prayed.

And the Holy Spirit said to the apostles: Let all of you together, having come by the clouds from the ends of the world, be assembled to holy Bethlehem by a whirlwind, on account of the mother of our Lord Jesus Christ; Peter from Rome, Paul from Tiberia, Thomas from Hither India, James from Jerusalem. Andrew, Peter’s brother, and Philip, Luke, and Simon the Cananaean, and Thaddaeus who had fallen asleep, were raised by the Holy Spirit out of their tombs; to whom the Holy Spirit said: Do not think that it is now the resurrection; but on this account you have risen out of your tombs, that you may go to give greeting to the honour and wonder-working of the mother of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, because the day of her departure is at hand, of her going up into the heavens. And Mark likewise coming round, was present from Alexandria; he also with the rest, as has been said before, from each country. And Peter being lifted up by a cloud, stood between heaven and earth, the Holy Spirit keeping him steady. And at the same time, the rest of the apostles also, having been snatched up in clouds, were found along with Peter. And thus by the Holy Spirit, as has been said, they all came together.

And having gone in beside the mother of our Lord and God, and having adored, we said: Fear not, nor grieve; God the Lord, who was born of thee, will take thee out of this world with glory. And rejoicing in God her Saviour, she sat up in the bed, and says to the apostles: Now have I believed that our Master and God is coming from heaven, and I shall behold Him, and thus depart from this life, as I have seen that you have come. And I wish you to tell me how you knew that I was departing and came to me, and from what countries and through what distance you have come hither, that you have thus made haste to visit me. For neither has He who was born of me, our Lord Jesus Christ, the God of the universe, concealed it; for I am persuaded even now that He is the Son of the Most High.

And Peter answered and said to the apostles: Let us each, according to what the Holy Spirit announced and commanded us, give full information to the mother of our Lord. And I John answered and said: Just as I was going in to the holy altar in Ephesus to perform divine service, the Holy Spirit says to me, The time of the departure of the mother of thy Lord is at hand; go to Bethlehem to salute her. And a cloud of light snatched me up, and set me down in the door where thou art lying. Peter also answered: And I, living in Rome, about dawn heard a voice through the Holy Spirit saying to me, The mother of thy Lord is to depart, as the time is at hand; go to Bethlehem to salute her. And, behold, a cloud of light snatched me up; and I beheld also the other apostles coming to me on clouds, and a voice saying to me, Go all to Bethlehem. And Paul also answered and said: And I, living in a city at no great distance from Rome, called the country of Tiberia, heard the Holy Spirit saying to me, The mother of thy Lord, having left this world, is making her course to the celestial regions through her departure; but go thou also to Bethlehem to salute her. And, behold, a cloud of light having snatched me up, set me down in the same place as you. And Thomas also answered and said: And I, traversing the country of the Indians, when the preaching was prevailing by the grace of Christ, and the king’s sister’s son Labdanus by name, was about to be sealed by me in the palace, on a sudden the Holy Spirit says to me, Do thou also, Thomas, go to Bethlehem to salute the mother of thy Lord, because she is taking her departure to the heavens. And a cloud of light having snatched me up, set me down beside you. And Mark also answered and said: And when I was finishing the canon of the third day in the city of Alexandria, just as I was praying, the Holy Spirit snatched me up, and brought me to you. And James also answered and said: While I was in Jerusalem, the Holy Spirit commanded me, saying, Go to Bethlehem, because the mother of thy Lord is taking her departure. And, behold, a cloud of light having snatched me up, set me beside you. And Matthew also answered and said: I have glorified and do glorify God, because when I was in a boat and overtaken by a storm, the sea raging with its waves, on a sudden a cloud of light overshadowing the stormy billow, changed it to a calm, and having snatched me up, set me down beside you. And those who had come before likewise answered, and gave an account of how they had come. And Bartholomew said: I was in the Thebais proclaiming the word, and behold the Holy Spirit says to me, The mother of thy Lord is taking her departure; go, then, to salute her in Bethlehem. And, behold, a cloud of light having snatched me up, brought me to you.

 

[Mannyfit75]

The apostles said all these things to the holy mother of God, why they had come, and in what way; and she stretched her hands to heaven and prayed, saying: I adore, and praise, and glorify Thy much to he praised name, O Lord, because Thou hast looked upon the lowliness of Thine handmaiden, and because Thou that art mighty hast done great things for me; and, behold, all generations shall count me blessed. And after the prayer she said to the apostles: Cast incense, and pray. And when they had prayed, there was thunder from heaven, and there came a fearful voice, as if of chariots; and, behold, a multitude of a host of angels and powers, and a voice, as if of the Son of man, was heard, and the seraphim in a circle round the house where the holy, spotless mother of God and virgin was lying, so that all who were in Bethlehem beheld all the wonderful things, and came to Jerusalem and reported all the wonderful things that had come to pass. And it came to pass, when the voice was heard, that the sun and the moon suddenly appeared about the house; and an assembly of the first-born saints stood beside the house where the mother of the Lord was lying, for her honour and glory. And I beheld also that many signs came to pass, the blind seeing, the deaf hearing, the lame walking, lepers cleansed, and those possessed by unclean spirits cured; and every one who was under disease and sickness, touching the outside of the wall of the house where she was lying, cried out: Holy Mary, who didst bring forth Christ our God, have mercy upon us. And they were straightway cured. And great multitudes out of every country living in Jerusalem for the sake of prayer, having heard of the signs that had come to pass in Bethlehem through the mother of the Lord, came to the place seeking the cure of various diseases, which also they obtained. And there was joy unspeakable on that day among the multitude of those who had been cured, as well as of those who looked on, glorifying Christ our God and His mother. And all Jerusalem from Bethlehem kept festival with psalms and spiritual songs.

 

[Truthstalker]

For me to say that Mary’s body is in the ground somewhere decomposing is no more unbiblical than for the Catholic Church to state dogmatically that she has been assumed.

There is just as much lack of evidence of her assumption as there is of her remaining in the grave… no-one saw her ascend and no-one can say she was definitely buried in a place that she can no longer be found.

These are apples and oranges, Scripture and Tradition. There are hints at her Assumption in Scripture, which we have been over before, I expect. If not the Catholic apologists will gladly trot them out at the slightest hint they may be of use. The Biblical evidence is weighted towards Assumption on the basis of precedent (Elijah and Enoch), promise (death has no power over the sinless - you want to go there?), that Rev 12 passage and I think a few others .

The evidence for her assumption is that of the early church. NOBODY in the old days said they had her remains. That is evidence - not Biblical evidence, but historical evidence, which needs to be considered.

On the island of Cyprus is the tomb of Lazarus. You might as well argue that he did not die again (“men are appointed to die once, and then comes judgement”), but there is a historical record of what happened to him, as argue that Mary’s body is in a tomb somewhere.

As far as the demon posession thing… I have seen it first hand, and I have recorded evidence on an audio tape. A demon calling himself Ezekiel. In fact, this demon is very popular in St. Louis and is channelled through a woman who works as a liason with the St. Louis police dept. Of course this is not the only case of this. Channellers more often than not, tend to bring about “spirits” who claim the name of an Old Testament prophet. These demons do this to gain the trust of the one who is being deceived.

I agree with you, actually. Paul makes reference to demons masquarading as angels of light (2 Cor 11:13-15) and yours is not the first report I have heard of this sort of thing. There are also several religions in which an “angel” has delivered a message that starts the religion. Not surprisingly, the message does not seem to line up with the Gospel.

The Marian apparitions are different. The Catholic Church seems to do a fairly thorough screening process on them, and as far as I can tell, will only say that “this is not necessarily wrong.” Some of them have been rejected. Those typically pertain to a claim that Mary has shown up somewhere to tell something to the whole world, or the Church, or whatever.

In contrast this thread is more about the private devotional life of people and their relationship with someone they know and insist is alive. Their testimony is something that needs to be considered. Usually when someone tells me someone else is alive I tend to believe them. This, however, is at least extraordinary. But with God all things are possible.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Historically speaking Christians believed that Mary assumed into Heaven.

Consider the writings of the Early Church Fathers.

IV. Mary’s Assumption into Heaven
“If the Holy Virgin had died and was buried, her falling asleep would have been surrounded with honour, death would have found her pure, and her crown would have been a virginal one…Had she been martyred according to what is written: ‘Thine own soul a sword shall pierce’, then she would shine gloriously among the martyrs, and her holy body would have been declared blessed; for by her, did light come to the world."
Epiphanius, Panarion, 78:23 (A.D. 377).

“[T]he Apostles took up her body on a bier and placed it in a tomb; and they guarded it, expecting the Lord to come. And behold, again the Lord stood by them; and the holy body having been received, He commanded that it be taken in a cloud into paradise: where now, rejoined to the soul, [Mary] rejoices with the Lord’s chosen ones…” Gregory of Tours, Eight Books of Miracles, 1:4 (inter A.D. 575-593).

“As the most glorious Mother of Christ, our Savior and God and the giver of life and immortality, has been endowed with life by him, she has received an eternal incorruptibility of the body together with him who has raised her up from the tomb and has taken her up to himself in a way known only to him.” Modestus of Jerusalem, Encomium in dormitionnem Sanctissimae Dominae nostrae Deiparae semperque Virginis Mariae (PG 86-II,3306),(ante A.D. 634).

“It was fitting …that the most holy-body of Mary, God-bearing body, receptacle of God, divinised, incorruptible, illuminated by divine grace and full glory …should be entrusted to the earth for a little while and raised up to heaven in glory, with her soul pleasing to God.” Theoteknos of Livias, Homily on the Assumption (ante A.D. 650).

“You are she who, as it is written, appears in beauty, and your virginal body is all holy, all chaste, entirely the dwelling place of God, so that it is henceforth completely exempt from dissolution into dust. Though still human, it is changed into the heavenly life of incorruptibility, truly living and glorious, undamaged and sharing in perfect life.” Germanus of Constantinople, Sermon I (PG 98,346), (ante A.D. 733).

“St. Juvenal, Bishop of Jerusalem, at the Council of Chalcedon (451), made known to the Emperor Marcian and Pulcheria, who wished to possess the body of the Mother of God, that Mary died in the presence of all the Apostles, but that her tomb, when opened upon the request of St. Thomas, was found empty; wherefrom the Apostles concluded that the body was taken up to heaven.” John of Damascene, PG (96:1) (A.D. 747-751).

“It was fitting that the she, who had kept her virginity intact in childbirth, should keep her own body free from all corruption even after death. It was fitting that she, who had carried the Creator as a child at her breast, should dwell in the divine tabernacles. It was fitting that the spouse, whom the Father had taken to himself, should live in the divine mansions. It was fitting that she, who had seen her Son upon the cross and who had thereby received into her heart the sword of sorrow which she had escaped when giving birth to him, should look upon him as he sits with the Father, It was fitting that God’s Mother should possess what belongs to her Son, and that she should be honored by every creature as the Mother and as the handmaid of God.” John of Damascene, Dormition of Mary (PG 96,741), (ante A.D. 749).

“Venerable to us, O Lord, is the festivity of this day on which the holy Mother of God suffered temporal death, but still could not be kept down by the bonds of death, who has begotten Thy Son our Lord incarnate from herself.” Gregorian Sacramentary, Veneranda (ante A.D. 795).

“[A]n effable mystery all the more worthy of praise as the Virgin’s Assumption is something unique among men.” Gallican Sacramentary, from Munificentis simus Deus (8th Century).

“God, the King of the universe, has granted you favors that surpass nature. As he kept you virgin in childbirth, thus he kept your body incorrupt in the tomb and has glorified it by his divine act of transferring it from the tomb.” Byzantine Liturgy, from Munificentis simus Deus (8th Century).

“[T]he virgin is up to now immortal, as He who lived, translated her into the place of reception.” Timotheus of Jerusalem (8th Century)

That is historical proof, and a very Christian in its traditions.

 

[bibleapologist]

History, Christian shows that Mary left and was raptured up into heaven by God. Most of the early Christians claimed the bombs of the Apostles but none could find any of Mary’s bones or remains. When the Emperor’s wife wanted to recover Mary’s body, they could not find one.

Mary, body and soul is no longer on earth. Find the body of Mary to prove your case.

There is proof.

If I stated that Winnie the Pooh particles existed with electrons in an Atom, would that be ground to believe dogmatically that they existed? Of course not. I would be expected to PROVE their existence mathmatically or physically.

Anyone who claims that Mary was assumed shouldn’t be held to any lower standard.

Since it has never been proven that “Winnie the Pooh” particles exist in an Atom… I would be operating scientifically to study Atomic physics with the assumption that they do not contain those particles. And conversely… I would be a failure as a scientist to study Atomic physics assuming that "Winnie the Pooh particles existed in an Atom.

If you want to teach that Mary was assumed… you need to prove that. Otherwise, true Christians will continue to study Theology without considering the assumption of Mary.

BA

 

[Mannyfit75]

BA,

I have the writing of the ECF believe that Mary was taken up to heaven body and soul.

Must I show it to you? I don’t think the ECF make it up. They were taught by the Apostles.

*“If the Holy Virgin had died and was buried, her falling asleep would have been surrounded with honour, death would have found her pure, and her crown would have been a virginal one…Had she been martyred according to what is written: ‘Thine own soul a sword shall pierce’, then she would shine gloriously among the martyrs, and her holy body would have been declared blessed; for by her, did light come to the world."
Epiphanius, Panarion, 78:23 (A.D. 377).

“[T]he Apostles took up her body on a bier and placed it in a tomb; and they guarded it, expecting the Lord to come. And behold, again the Lord stood by them; and the holy body having been received, He commanded that it be taken in a cloud into paradise: where now, rejoined to the soul, [Mary] rejoices with the Lord’s chosen ones…” Gregory of Tours, Eight Books of Miracles, 1:4 (inter A.D. 575-593).

“As the most glorious Mother of Christ, our Savior and God and the giver of life and immortality, has been endowed with life by him, she has received an eternal incorruptibility of the body together with him who has raised her up from the tomb and has taken her up to himself in a way known only to him.” Modestus of Jerusalem, Encomium in dormitionnem Sanctissimae Dominae nostrae Deiparae semperque Virginis Mariae (PG 86-II,3306),(ante A.D. 634).

“It was fitting …that the most holy-body of Mary, God-bearing body, receptacle of God, divinised, incorruptible, illuminated by divine grace and full glory …should be entrusted to the earth for a little while and raised up to heaven in glory, with her soul pleasing to God.” Theoteknos of Livias, Homily on the Assumption (ante A.D. 650).

“You are she who, as it is written, appears in beauty, and your virginal body is all holy, all chaste, entirely the dwelling place of God, so that it is henceforth completely exempt from dissolution into dust. Though still human, it is changed into the heavenly life of incorruptibility, truly living and glorious, undamaged and sharing in perfect life.” Germanus of Constantinople, Sermon I (PG 98,346), (ante A.D. 733).

“St. Juvenal, Bishop of Jerusalem, at the Council of Chalcedon (451), made known to the Emperor Marcian and Pulcheria, who wished to possess the body of the Mother of God, that Mary died in the presence of all the Apostles, but that her tomb, when opened upon the request of St. Thomas, was found empty; wherefrom the Apostles concluded that the body was taken up to heaven.” John of Damascene, PG (96:1) (A.D. 747-751).

“It was fitting that the she, who had kept her virginity intact in childbirth, should keep her own body free from all corruption even after death. It was fitting that she, who had carried the Creator as a child at her breast, should dwell in the divine tabernacles. It was fitting that the spouse, whom the Father had taken to himself, should live in the divine mansions. It was fitting that she, who had seen her Son upon the cross and who had thereby received into her heart the sword of sorrow which she had escaped when giving birth to him, should look upon him as he sits with the Father, It was fitting that God’s Mother should possess what belongs to her Son, and that she should be honored by every creature as the Mother and as the handmaid of God.” John of Damascene, Dormition of Mary (PG 96,741), (ante A.D. 749).

“Venerable to us, O Lord, is the festivity of this day on which the holy Mother of God suffered temporal death, but still could not be kept down by the bonds of death, who has begotten Thy Son our Lord incarnate from herself.” Gregorian Sacramentary, Veneranda (ante A.D. 795).

“[A]n effable mystery all the more worthy of praise as the Virgin’s Assumption is something unique among men.” Gallican Sacramentary, from Munificentis simus Deus (8th Century).

“God, the King of the universe, has granted you favors that surpass nature. As he kept you virgin in childbirth, thus he kept your body incorrupt in the tomb and has glorified it by his divine act of transferring it from the tomb.” Byzantine Liturgy, from Munificentis simus Deus (8th Century).

“[T]he virgin is up to now immortal, as He who lived, translated her into the place of reception.” Timotheus of Jerusalem (8th Century).*

 

[homewardbound]

If you want to teach that Mary was assumed… you need to prove that. Otherwise, true Christians will continue to study Theology without considering the assumption of Mary.
BA

That word alone makes me realize how very lucky I am that God got me away from Baptist teaching and helped me find what it was to really have a Christian attitude towards my fellow believers.​

I have felt Mary’s presence during prayer, even while I was speaking to God. She is alive and with God, I look forward to meeting her someday.

 

[Mannyfit75]

BA,

I have a question for you. Do you not believe in the resurrect of the dead? In the Book of Revelations those who died in Christ will be resurrected. In the Bible, Mary throughout her life remain obedient to God’s will.

There are two witness taken up into heaven. Does assuming into heaven against Scripture? Mary assumption is part of the Christian tradition and is a widely held belief of the early Christians.

Second there are no bones of Mary. I have pointed that out to you.

I also like to add that you have not given any historical evidence that Mary did not assumed into heaven.

NOT ONE!

In the early Church the relics of saints and martyrs were zealously sought after and prized, but no one ever claimed to have the bones of Mary. In fact, St John Damascene tells us:
“St. Juvenal, Bishop of Jerusalem, at the Council of Chalcedon [AD 451], made known to the Emperor Marcian and Pulcheria, who wished to possess the body of the Mother of God, that Mary died in the presence of all the Apostles, but that her tomb, when opened, upon the request of St. Thomas, was found empty; wherefrom the Apostles concluded that the body was taken up to heaven” (St John of Damascus, in Migne’s Patrologia Graeca Cursus Completus 96:1).

Many Christian apologists have pointed out that the First Century Jewish or Roman authorities could have quickly squashed the early Christian faith in Christ’s resurrection by simply producing the body of Jesus; similar reasoning can be applied with respect to Mary’s Assumption. The fact that there is no hint in history of a claim to the possession of her relics is a good point in favour of the doctrine.

"Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death. [LG 59; cf. Pius XII, Munificentissimus Deus (1950): DS 3903; cf. Rev 19:16.]

"The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son’s Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:

“In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.” [Byzantine Liturgy, Troparion, Feast of the Dormition, August 15th.]"

 

[Truthstalker]

If you want to teach that Mary was assumed… you need to prove that.

BA,

Since you have disregarded all the evidence presented so far, without discussing it except to say the Assumption hasn’t been proven, I wonder what WOULD it take to prove it to you? Or, equally, what it would take to prove to you it did not happen? Here I am only looking for the criteria you use to evaluate something that cannot be directly proven from Scripture.

 

[bibleapologist]

That word alone makes me realize how very lucky I am that God got me away from Baptist teaching and helped me find what it was to really have a Christian attitude towards my fellow believers.

Yes (sarcastically)… that is what Christianity is… just learning to interact sociologically with others of like faith.

That is very shallow.

BA

 

[bibleapologist]

BA,

I have a question for you. Do you not believe in the resurrect of the dead? In the Book of Revelations those who died in Christ will be resurrected. In the Bible, Mary throughout her life remain obedient to God’s will.

Of course I believe in the resurrection of the dead… but it hasn’t happened yet. And yes, Mary will be resurrected without a doubt… “some to everlasting life, and some to everlasting death”. I do believe Mary will be resurrected to everlasting life.

(And it’s Revelation… not Revelation(s) )

There are two witness taken up into heaven. Does assuming into heaven against Scripture? Mary assumption is part of the Christian tradition and is a widely held belief of the early Christians.

Enoch and Elijah were assumed into heaven… like I said earlier. But we are not told that Mary was assumed… so why believe it. Tradition doesn’t prove anything. If it was tradition that Winnie the Pooh particles existed in Atoms… I think it would be time to reconsider scientific traditions.

Second there are no bones of Mary. I have pointed that out to you.

No-one has been able to find the bones of Jimmy Hoffa either, but I would be a idiot to say that he had been assumed.

Come on now, you know as well as I do that there were hundreds of Mary’s during that time period, and hundreds, if not thousands of graves that have the name Mary on them. How can you say for a fact that not one of them is the Mother of Jesus?

I also like to add that you have not given any historical evidence that Mary did not assumed into heaven.

I don’t have to.

If you told me that a planet existed beyond Pluto that had little people living on it, I wouldn’t have to prove to you that they didn’t exist… the burden of proof would lie with you.

And the burden of proof lies with you on the assumption of Mary also. I don’t care how many people have said in the past that she was assumed… those people are tradition believers too.

You show me the proof. And if you can’t, then why would you believe it yourself?

BA

 

[bibleapologist]

BA,

Since you have disregarded all the evidence presented so far, without discussing it except to say the Assumption hasn’t been proven, I wonder what WOULD it take to prove it to you? Or, equally, what it would take to prove to you it did not happen? Here I am only looking for the criteria you use to evaluate something that cannot be directly proven from Scripture.

Show me Biblically where the assumption of Mary was prophesied.

Something so important would have been prophesied about, either literally or symbolically.

BA

 

[Gara3987]

Our Blessed Mother is Alive; one who obtains heaven obtains eternal life, She is the Queen of heaven. If one is asking if some believe that she is reincarnated and alive on this earth walking amongst us the the obvious answer to that is no. The Belief of reincarnation is heretical, one who falls into the pits of hell obtain death. The Blessed Mother has visited some Saints though, one way to know she is present when praying is when you start to smell roses, it is a very beautiful smell.

Something on Reincarnation in the Bible is :

Hebrews 9:27 “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the Judgment:”