Mary is Sinless

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Simple… she never sinned!

And she was born without original sin!

Any questions?

Notworthy
 
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NotWorthy:
Simple… she never sinned!

And she was born without original sin!

Any questions?

Notworthy
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Thanks for the quick response, we are in the midst of the debate. Our friend wants me to prove Mary is/was sinless.
 
Just some elaboration on Notworthy’s post.

Mary was concieved sinless - this is called the Immaculate Conception, you can read about it here catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp
As you might have suspected, it was God who made it happen.

Mary never committed actual sin - how did she pull off a feat like that? Not even 1 little venial sin? It was because God gave her a special grace to be able to avoid actual sin. (I don’t know what it was called).
 
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christaddict:
Can I have direct reference to the page?
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scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html

Mary is “full of grace.” Also, she is the Ark of the New Covenant. Furthermore, she is the New Eve and is referred to in Genesis 3:15 where enmity is put between her and Satan. Enmity means total separation. This can only be achieved by her sinlessness. Also note that it is not her doing. God says, “I will put enmity…” Hope that helps somewhat. Furthermore, the Church Fathers of both East and West all agree on this as well as the original “reformers.”
 
I’m sure that your friend will bring up the “all have sinned verse.” I think it’s Romans 3:23. In that same book it says that “none are righteous.” However, the Bible says that numerous people are righteous including St. Joseph. Because we know that the Bible is the infallible, inerrant, and inspired Word of God that it can’t contradict itself. So, obviously, such statements cannot be taken so literally as to mean that *absolutely * all have sinned. After all, Jesus didn’t sin. Nor do babies or retards. His mother is an exception as well.
 
The phrase the angel uses to describe Mary is “Kecharitomone”. This implies that Mary is “Full of Grace”, which means she is not stained with any sins. But the phrase implies that Mary was ALWAYS in a state of Grace, which would mean that:
A) She never sinned, and
B) She was never stained with Original Sin.

This is not a new theory “invented” in 1850 as you may hear from your friends. Here’s some early quotes:
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Immaculate Conception
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“He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption.”
Hippolytus,Orat. Inillud, Dominus pascit me(ante A.D. 235),in ULL,94
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“This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one.”
Origen,Homily 1(A.D. 244),in ULL,94

“Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother.”
"Ephraem,Nisibene Hymns,27:8(A.D. 370),in THEO,132
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“Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin.”
Ambrose,Sermon 22:30(A.D. 388),in JUR,II:166

There are many more quotes from cin.org/users/jgallegos/immac.htm.

Notworthy
 
And another thing, they will probably say that because she “rejoices in her Savior” that she sinned. They claim that only sinners need a savior. This isn’t true. She wouldn’t be sinless if she weren’t saved by the merits of Christ from Original Sin from the moment of her conception.
 
My friend says that if Mary is sinless, there is no need for Jesus to come to earth. God would have her as a sacrifice instead of Jesus.

We need to say illustrate about the concept of original sin. Most of the doctrines like Ark of the Covenant are too strange.
 
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christaddict:
Our dear friend wants to know how Mary was sinless?
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Because… in *anticipation * of Christ’s merits won on the cross… at the moment of her conception she was saved by Christ’s merits and also granted a *special grace * that persevered her from the stain of sin we are all born with.
 
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christaddict:
My friend says that if Mary is sinless, there is no need for Jesus to come to earth. God would have her as a sacrifice instead of Jesus.

We need to say illustrate about the concept of original sin. Most of the doctrines like Ark of the Covenant are too strange.
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Mary’s sinless state does not atone and cannot atone for our sins. God’s covenenat with Israel required that Israel would suffer the curses listed in Deuteronomy chapter 28, since Israel had broken the covenant.

The only way to get out of the covenant is for one of the two parties involved in the covenant to die. (look at the terms of a marriage covenant - “till death do us part”).

If Israel died, no one could be saved, so that wasn’t a good option. But if God died, then Israel would no longer be tied to the Deuteronomic Covenant (and curses - which included exile and death). This is what Jesus does when he dies on the cross. This is why the early Christians were no longer tied to the Covenant Laws.

Notworthy
 
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christaddict:
My friend says that if Mary is sinless, there is no need for Jesus to come to earth. God would have her as a sacrifice instead of Jesus.

We need to say illustrate about the concept of original sin. Most of the doctrines like Ark of the Covenant are too strange.
Click to expand...
Your friend has things a little mixed up. Mary was able to be preserved from sin precisely because of Christ’s atoning sacrifice on the Cross. Remember, in the Magnificat, Mary says “my soul rejoices in God my savior” (Lk 1:47), demonstrating that she needed a savior as well – she couldn’t save anybody herself.

This may seem like a contradiction. How can Mary have been saved from sin by Christ’s sacrifice before it even happened? An analogy may help to illustrate: if a man falls into a deep pit (we’ll call it sin), and someone (Christ) reaches in and pulls him out, the man has been “saved” from “sin”, even though he will have some stains from the mud still on him (original sin). Now suppose a woman (Mary) is walking along, but someone (Christ again) holds here back before she falls in, she is also saved from “sin”…but even more so because she doesn’t get stained by the mud of original sin.

Remember, God is eternal…He is outside time. He can certainly choose to apply the merits of Christ’s sacrifice “before” they happened, because there is no past or future for Him.

Thus, we can see that although Mary was sinless and had no original sin, she needed a savior herself, which means that Christ was absolutely necessary. It has been the constant teaching of the Church that only the propitiatory sacrifice of the God-Man could reconcile man to God.
 
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christaddict:
Our friend wants me to prove Mary is/was sinless.
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Why don’t you get your friend to sign up on here so we can talk with them directly? We can’t know exactly what they’re asking otherwise.
 
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christaddict:
Thanks for the quick response, we are in the midst of the debate. Our friend wants me to prove Mary is/was sinless.
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Tell your friend to prove that Christianity is true. Hint – by rejecting the authority of your friend’s evidence (e.g. the bible) such a proof is impossible.

We “prove” that Mary is sinless by pointing to the Church which teaches it. If your friend rejects the authority of the Church then there is no way to prove that Mary is sinless. There’s also no way to prove your friend’s bible is actually inspired, but that’s another issue…
 
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JSmitty2005:
I’m sure that your friend will bring up the “all have sinned verse.” I think it’s Romans 3:23. In that same book it says that “none are righteous.” However, the Bible says that numerous people are righteous including St. Joseph. Because we know that the Bible is the infallible, inerrant, and inspired Word of God that it can’t contradict itself. So, obviously, such statements cannot be taken so literally as to mean that *absolutely * all have sinned. After all, Jesus didn’t sin. Nor do babies or retards. His mother is an exception as well.
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Actually I think it is literal, but, taken out of context. This is addressed to a particular audience or group, the comment of all have sinned is directed to the audience or group and does not reflect “all” people, simply “all” in that group.
drbo.org:
Romans 1, 7 To all that are at Rome, the beloved of God, called to be saints. Grace to you, and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 8 First I give thanks to my God, through Jesus Christ, for you all, because your faith is spoken of in the whole world. 9 For God is my witness, whom I serve in my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make a commemoration of you; 10 Always in my prayers making request, if by any means now at length I may have a prosperous journey, by the will of God, to come unto you.
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This is the context of who is being addressed when the comment of all (of you romans) have sinned.
 
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Tom:
Actually I think it is literal, but, taken out of context.
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I agree that it is literal, but not in the absolute sense. And that is the sense in which they use that passage.
 
Thanks for all the replies guys. I should be able to grasp all the content. That sure sounds really helpful. 😃
 
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