Mary-ism and Mary as the new Eve

[Jprk811]

Can someone point me to non-Catholic resources (Scripture) that supports the idea that Mary remained a virgin all her life? Why do Catholics keep Mary a virgin despite Gospel of Mark (6:3) and the Gospel of Matthew (13:55-56) where they reference brothers and sisters.

Why do Catholics insist on making Mary a virgin for life and why did Ann (her mother) have to be a virgin too? If I understand the immaculate conception of Mary, this makes Ann, pure? This is very confusing to me.

Also wandering if anyone has thoughts about why Mary is called the ‘new Eve’. Why draw a parallel between Eve and Mary?

Thoughts?

 

[Fauken]

Can someone point me to non-Catholic resources (Scripture)

You do realize that Scripture is not only a Catholic source, but was compiled and canonized by the Catholic Church, yes?

 

[JonNC]

Can someone point me to non-Catholic resources (Scripture) that supports the idea that Mary remained a virgin all her life? Why do Catholics keep Mary a virgin despite Gospel of Mark (6:3) and the Gospel of Matthew (13:55-56) where they reference brothers and sisters.

Why do Catholics insist on making Mary a virgin for life and why did Ann (her mother) have to be a virgin too? If I understand the immaculate conception of Mary, this makes Ann, pure? This is very confusing to me.

Also wandering if anyone has thoughts about why Mary is called the ‘new Eve’. Why draw a parallel between Eve and Mary?

Thoughts?

From the Lutheran Book of Concord:

[24]](http://www.bookofconcord.org/sd-person.php#para24) On account of this personal union and communion of the natures, Mary, the most blessed Virgin, bore not a mere man, but, as the angel [Gabriel] testifies, such a man as is truly the Son of the most high God, who showed His divine majesty even in His mother’s womb, inasmuch as He was born of a virgin, with her virginity inviolate. Therefore she is truly the mother of God, and nevertheless remained a virgin.

 

[adf417]

Immaculate Conception and Assumption | Catholic Answers Tract

"Brethren of the Lord" | Catholic Answers Tract

Peace!!!

 

[Wesrock]

Why do Catholics insist on making Mary a virgin for life and why did Ann (her mother) have to be a virgin too? If I understand the immaculate conception of Mary, this makes Ann, pure? This is very confusing to me.

I’ll quickly comment on this one. There is no teaching that Ann remained a virgin. The Immaculate Conception is the doctrine that God preserved Mary from original sin (through the merits of Jesus Christ). That is, Mary was conceived full of grace from God. God was still her savior and without God’s grace she could not have remained free from personal sin throughout her life. The Eastern Orthodox also teach that Mary is “all-holy” and never sinned and was full of God’s graces, though their different theology of “original sin” means they don’t have the Immaculate Conception as a doctrine.

That’s a separate discussion from her perpetual virginity, though.

 

[Wesrock]

Also wandering if anyone has thoughts about why Mary is called the ‘new Eve’. Why draw a parallel between Eve and Mary?

As for this, I would suggest looking up typology in the Bible. It was the basis for many early Church interpretations of the Old and New Testaments in respect to each other. Bishop Irenaeus of Lyons wrote the following in the second century (180 AD):

In accordance with this design, Mary the Virgin is found obedient, saying, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to your word. Luke 1:38 But Eve was disobedient; for she did not obey when as yet she was a virgin. And even as she, having indeed a husband, Adam, but being nevertheless as yet a virgin (for in Paradise they were both naked, and were not ashamed, Genesis 2:25 inasmuch as they, having been created a short time previously, had no understanding of the procreation of children: for it was necessary that they should first come to adult age, and then multiply from that time onward), having become disobedient, was made the cause of death, both to herself and to the entire human race; so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race. And on this account does the law term a woman betrothed to a man, the wife of him who had betrothed her, although she was as yet a virgin; thus indicating the back-reference from Mary to Eve, because what is joined together could not otherwise be put asunder than by inversion of the process by which these bonds of union had arisen; so that the former ties be cancelled by the latter, that the latter may set the former again at liberty. And it has, in fact, happened that the first compact looses from the second tie, but that the second tie takes the position of the first which has been cancelled. For this reason did the Lord declare that the first should in truth be last, and the last first. Matthew 19:30, Matthew 20:16 And the prophet, too, indicates the same, saying, instead of fathers, children have been born unto you. For the Lord, having been born the First-begotten of the dead, Revelation 1:5 and receiving into His bosom the ancient fathers, has regenerated them into the life of God, He having been made Himself the beginning of those that live, as Adam became the beginning of those who die. 1 Corinthians 15:20-22 Wherefore also Luke, commencing the genealogy with the Lord, carried it back to Adam, indicating that it was He who regenerated them into the Gospel of life, and not they Him. And thus also it was that the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith.

As far as typology goes, there is much to be said of Jesus as the new Adam, the new Moses, the new Joshua, the new Elisha, the new David… etc…

 

[Thom18]

Can someone point me to non-Catholic resources (Scripture) that supports the idea that Mary remained a virgin all her life? Why do Catholics keep Mary a virgin despite Gospel of Mark (6:3) and the Gospel of Matthew (13:55-56) where they reference brothers and sisters.

For a few reasons. Firstly, while Scripture refers to “the brothers of Jesus”, it never says “the sons of Mary”. Also, the term “brother” is also used by Abraham in Genesis 13:8 to describe a relationship he had with Lot, his nephew. They were not biological brothers, but uncle and nephew.

There’s also the small problem that Jesus appeared to “more than five hundred brothers and sisters” after His Resurrection. Do you believe that Mary had more than 500 children?

Why do Catholics insist on making Mary a virgin for life and why did Ann (her mother) have to be a virgin too? If I understand the immaculate conception of Mary, this makes Ann, pure? This is very confusing to me.

Also wandering if anyone has thoughts about why Mary is called the ‘new Eve’. Why draw a parallel between Eve and Mary?

Mary was a perpetual virgin because the Church which she foreshadowed is also virginal. Her physical virginity was a prefigurement of the Church’s spiritual virginity, her purity before Christ, who handed Himself over for the Church “that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.” (Ephesians 5:27)

As for Mary as the New Eve, we refer to her as such because Jesus is referred to as the New Adam, and we cannot conceive of Adam apart from Eve. The first Eve was taken from Adam and ate the fruit, committing the first sin. The New Eve, Mary, conceived and bore the New Adam, who is the Fruit which hangs from the Tree (the cross) and blots out our sin.

 

[Wesrock]

So the reason that we hold she remained a virgin throughout her life while she was indeed married is because she never lost that devotion. Loss of virginity is a loss of 100% connection to God.

In a sense, St. Paul makes a point that marriage can often lead to worldly concerns instead of focus on the spiritual. I prefer to think of the Incarnation as being awe inspiring. In my opinion we’re very desensitized to the idea of God becoming man and dwelling in a place. God took flesh from Mary and became man, dwelling in her womb. That is awe inspiring, and I imagine a righteous Jew like Joseph would have been struck by this as well as Mary. Look at how the Jews saw the Temple and the Holy of Holies. Out of love for God these things were set apart and treated with incredible reverence. God dwelt more really in Mary than he ever did in the Temple.

And there’a a lot more to be said of other reasons besides.

 

[Stephen_says]

Why do Catholics insist on making Mary a virgin for life

Take Two: without commentary

CCC 506: Mary is a virgin because her virginity is the sign of her faith “unadulterated by any doubt,” and of her undivided gift of herself to God’s will

1 Cor 7:34 An unmarried woman or a virgin is anxious about the things of the Lord, so that she may be holy in both body and spirit. A married woman, on the other hand, is anxious about the things of the world, how she may please her husband.

 

[ZMystiCat]

Why do Catholics keep Mary a virgin despite Gospel of Mark (6:3) and the Gospel of Matthew (13:55-56) where they reference brothers and sisters.

Even if we don’t account for the looser understanding of the terms that Scripture uses, there are still sibling relationships that aren’t biological (e.g. step-siblings). Even some of the early Protestant leaders (and many Protestants today) recognized this and didn’t see those passages as disproving the perpetual virginity.

Why do Catholics insist on making Mary a virgin for life

Because that’s what’s been understood as true for 2000+ years.

From a typological standpoint, it also fits in with Mary as the New Ark, bearing in mind the first could not be touched, who bore the Bread of Life, the Fulfillment of the Law, and the High Priest. In other words, there some Christological significance.

Why draw a parallel between Eve and Mary?

Because the book of John does when it has Jesus, the New Adam, refer to Mary as “woman” at the wedding feast, just as Adam did with Eve in Genesis, a book John is heavily steeped in. This is also noteworthy since Mary and Jesus share the modern parallel of how Eve came from Adam, as recognized by Paul (1 Cor. 11:12).

There’s also a lot of parallels between the Annunciation and temptation of Eve.

 

[Todd_Easton]

And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of compassion and supplication, so that, when they look on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a first-born. (Zechariah 12:10)

By John 19:37, this verse prophetically refers to Jesus, who was pierced and died in Jerusalem. We know that Jesus, whom they wept over as one weeps over a first-born, was indeed Mary’s first-born. Was he, whom they mourned as one mourns an only child, not then also indeed her only child?

 

[Dougbro1]

Can someone point me to non-Catholic resources

Like what?

(Scripture)

Scripture is a Catholic resource, being compiled and canonized by the Church a long time ago, so that’s not a non-Catholic resource, as another poster pointed out.

Why do Catholics keep Mary a virgin despite Gospel of Mark (6:3) and the Gospel of Matthew (13:55-56) where they reference brothers and sisters.

Brothers and sisters as mentioned in Scripture may not always mean the same thing as the same words mean today. If you need examples, I’d be happy to elaborate, though yet another poster beat me to it. Also, the perpetual virginity of Mary is not a belief exclusive to Catholicism. Orthodox, Lutherans, and other Christian divisions believe it, though there are a lot that don’t.

Why do Catholics insist on making Mary a virgin for life

This question can be flipped and be rephrased as “Why do some Protestants insist on having Mary not be a virgin for life?” The answer is likely a misinterpretation of Scripture regarding the words, “brothers” and “sisters.”

why did Ann (her mother) have to be a virgin too?

She didn’t.

If I understand the immaculate conception of Mary, this makes Ann, pure?

You probably don’t understand the Immaculate Conception, then, because no, it doesn’t.

Also wandering if anyone has thoughts about why Mary is called the ‘new Eve’. Why draw a parallel between Eve and Mary?

Mary succeeded where Eve failed as far as obedience to God. Mary has been compared to Eve for quite a long time, surprisingly. St. Justin Martyr wrote around the year 150 AD that evil entered through Eve while she was still a virgin; so too salvation entered through Mary while she was still a virgin. Each woman willingly participated in the act they performed. Neither was an unconscious instrument. Eve listened to the serpent and in a sense, conceived death. Mary listened to the angel Gabriel and conceived the One who would bring eternal life.

More details:

How Can You Say That Mary Is the 'New Eve'? | Catholic Answers Magazine

 

[Wesrock]

St. Justin Martyr wrote around the year 150 AD that evil entered through Eve while she was still a virgin; so too salvation entered through Mary while she was still a virgin. Each woman willingly participated in the act they performed. Neither was an unconscious instrument. Eve listened to the serpent and in a sense, conceived death. Mary listened to the angel Gabriel and conceived the One who would bring eternal life.

To quote St. Justin:

"Eve, who was a virgin and undefiled, having conceived the word of the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary conceived faith and joy, when the angel Gabriel announced the good tidings to her that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her, and the power of the Highest would overshadow her: wherefore also the Holy One begotten of her is the Son of God”

 

[Dan_Defender]

'Scripture" was put together by the Catholic Church in the 5th century so I trust it to interpret it correctly. Protestants cannot be trusted on this, they came along only in the 16th century.

 

[Wesrock]

Yes, but looking at what Irenaeus wrote in context, he never said that Mary was the New Eve (that, Mary as Eve, is a modern interpolation of Irenaeus, etc) -

The teaching that Mary is the ‘New Eve’ is all modern stuff, and falls short of the evidence, but when the “body of Christ” is considered, then we see real type to anti-type taking place.

The article takes the Eve and Mary typology and draws way too many corollaries with other doctrines as being what the typology is. Mary as the New Eve is just a topological reference to Mary’s role in salvation history compared to Eve’s role. How many corollaties drawn from that is a separate thing.

Irenaeus wrote, “Wherefore also Luke, commencing the genealogy with the Lord, carried it back to Adam, indicating that it was He who regenerated them into the Gospel of life, and not they Him. And thus also it was that the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith.”

The Bishop explicitly compares Eve being a type of Mary to Adam being a type of Jesus.

Eve was a type of Mary in the Bible. Adam, Moses, Joshua, David are all types of Jesus. It doesn’t mean Jesus was alike them in every manner.

Also, the Orthodox don’t teach the Immaculate Conception but they do teach that Mary was without sin. That article misses the nuances of difference in theology of what Original Sin is.

This Orthodox writer on the OCA website also recognizes that Eve is a type of Mary and that Mary is the New Eve.

https://www.oca.org/questions/saints/sinlessness-of-mary

 

[TK421]

Mary-ism = Mariology