G
GodIsGracious
Guest
Now that’s being obtuse and baiting. You know what she means by Catholics having written the Bible.
- Status
L
lizaanne
Guest
Yes - those men were Jews (and you know that I’m talking about the New Testament, so stop being sassy). The men who followed Jesus, many of them were Jews, Christ was a Jew. He was, after all, the Jewish Messiah. It’s not our fault that they did not accept Him.
But when it comes to the compilation of the books of the Bible - that was done by the Catholic Church.
So - given this fact - why don’t you respond to the original question to you from tcm22:
~Liza
C
Claire_from_DE
Guest
But we’re talking about the New Testament. The gospels were written about Jesus’ life, teachings, death, and resurrection. Mary figures in the accounts of His life. But Jesus’ teaching and preaching is about the kingdom of God and the gospel writers focus on this. It’s not surprising that only a little is said about her. But the 30 or so years that she was his only disciple surely must count for a lot.
The fact the the Catholic and the Orthodox Churches (which you must admit are the oldest and have survived to the present day) have such a great reverence for Mary should be indicative that this was something that came down from the early church.
Mary’s prophecy that “all generations shall call me blessed” is being carried out today.
On the cross Jesus entrusted Mary to John (behold your mother). John was the only apostle close to the cross, the others watched from a distance. Catholics see this as an indication that Mary is the mother of the Church. As she was Jesus’ mother, she is the mother of the Church which is the body of Christ on earth. We have the loving respect for her that John would have had.
C
Claire_from_DE
Guest
Maybe I have a twisted mind and see sarcasm where none was meant.What is wrong with that? Not everyone is as articulate as they wish they could be, and often find something written by someone else that voices their thoughts exactly.
I see nothing wrong with using something from someone else and saying >>>> yeah, what he said!!
~Liza
T
tcm22
Guest
No…not really. I’m interested in your view of Mary as a non-Catholic (at least I assume you’re not Catholic based on your profile and your comments). I know that the term “Protestant” covers a wide variety of beliefs and doctrines, so I’m just trying to understand your own particular perspective. I’m pretty comfortable with the Catholic position.
I had the same question. I’ve sensed the sarcasm in Jon Hus’ posts, but this seemed a bit misplaced.
J
Jon_Hus
Guest
Mick.
The following is from the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom:
It is truly right to bless you, O Theotokos, ever blessed and most pure, and the Mother of our God. More honorable than the Cherubim, and beyond compare more glorious than the Seraphim, without defilement you gave birth to God the Word. True Theotokos we magnify you.
Do you approve or disapprove of the Orthodox position as I’ve here briefly presented it?
Cordially,
Mick
I approve with three comments. 1. By blessing Mary, this blessing is the same as could be performed by any mortal to any other mortal such as Isaac blessing Jacob or David blessing the Lord. NOTE: I’m doubtful a mere mortal blessing a departed Saint is of any value.
And 2. “More honorable than (Angles…)” the Bible teaches the Saints, all of them are above the Angles so it goes without saying.
And 3. Mother of our God-- as long as this is interpreted in accordance with the teaching of the Council of Chalcedon.
Of course Modern Roman Catholics go way beyond in their theology what Chrysostom wrote.
S
SSTeacher
Guest
Jon Hus,
Noted and understood. Thanks for taking the time to respond.
Appreciatively,
Mick
T
tcm22
Guest
So why do you limit your understanding to the writings from the Council of Chelcedon. Of course the Roman Catholic Church goes beyond the teachings of that Council, but they certainly aren’t at odds with it. Acceptance of Chrysostom’s teaching does not preclude subsequent Church teachings on Mary’s role.
You clearly accept the concept of the Virgin Birth of Jesus, and the name Mother of God as applied to Mary.
What do you take issue with in Catholic teachings…presumably something “way beyond” you current beliefs?
L
Lilyflower
Guest
I’m not sure I agree the CC wrote the Bible. The CC in union with Orthodox canonised EXISTING Scripture, while eliminating those documents which were also in circulation at the time but which were either inaccurate or not first hand accounts.
Eg the Gospel of Thomas, was not attributed to the Apostle at all. His name appears in it just once and for that, it has been called ‘his’ Gospel.
Other documents were written by disciples of the Apostles but so far as I am aware, only one disciple ever got his document canonised: that of Peter’s disciple who according to tradition scribed 1 Peter and authored 2 Peter after the Apostles death based on his teachings.
What I have never had adequately explained is why this disciple’s other writings are still part of the Church’s canon but were excluded from the Bible?
Blessings and peace.
Eg the Gospel of Thomas, was not attributed to the Apostle at all. His name appears in it just once and for that, it has been called ‘his’ Gospel.
Other documents were written by disciples of the Apostles but so far as I am aware, only one disciple ever got his document canonised: that of Peter’s disciple who according to tradition scribed 1 Peter and authored 2 Peter after the Apostles death based on his teachings.
What I have never had adequately explained is why this disciple’s other writings are still part of the Church’s canon but were excluded from the Bible?
Blessings and peace.
J
Jon_Hus
Guest
If I were to put words in your mouth I suspect you would be quite angry so kindly afford the same courtesy to me. Are you familiar with what Chalcedon had to say with respect to Mary?
T
tcm22
Guest
I’ll go back to my original question…what is your view of Mary, and what is your understanding of how the Church views her? I was merely trying to deduce your position from your statements. If they are incorrect, then feel free to correct me. For some reason you seem to be avoiding the question of responding, and offer cryptic comments instead. I doubt I would be angry if you were sincerely asking what my thoughts were on the thread topic at hand.
I will admit I’m probably not as well versed in what Chalcedon had to say about Mary as you are, but my interest is in your position/thoughts wrt the OP.
As per my previous post:
I’m not really interested in playing word games. I’m assuming you have some thoughts and opinions on the different views of Mary by the Catholic Church and various Protestant denominations. I’m just looking to engage you in that conversation, not play “stump the chump” or word games.
I apologize if you are offended by my question, but would invite you to clarify your own comments rather than try to decipher what you mean when you offer reference to Catholic Catholic web sites or the teachings of Chrysostom.
Frankly, I’m beginning to suspect you’re just trolling the thread anyway. Your glib and sarcastic comments throughout thread suggest your anger is likely feigned.
B
bklynbrat
Guest
I would simply like to see the reactions if these people that believe this about our Blessed Mother, if they would tell their own mothers that they were just vessels too…
Talk about lack of respect…
S
SSTeacher
Guest
I don’t think they intend to be disrespectful. It’s my impression that some of them are only repeating what they’ve been told and, unfortunately, that’s the term often used.
Peace,
Mick
M
Monica4316
Guest
Mary is full of grace… she’s the most perfect, humble person who ever lived. I don’t believe that the Bible is the ONLY way that God gave us revelation about Himself. There is also Tradition. The Bible is inspired but it is meant to be interpreted using Tradition.
But even with what you said, there is actually a lot of things said about Our Lady in the Bible. For example, in Rev. 11-12… and how she is full of grace, blessed among women, how she was visited by an Archangel, how she freely consented to the Incarnation, etc. How she was given to us as Mother when Jesus was on the Cross… how she points us to Jesus, says “do whatever He tells you”… how she was responsible for His first public miracle…
even what there is, already makes her special
even if you discount Tradition.
J
Jon_Hus
Guest
tcm22, I’m not offended by anything as I know what and in whom I believe in.
OK, Back to the question at hand. Here is a question for you. In your response (#3) you did a beautiful cut and paste job quoting the Bible. I repeat your rendering of Luke 1:28 Here is what you posted:
From the RSV
Quote:
28 And he came to her and said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!”
The actual verse taken from the Revised Standard Version (RSV) first edition 1948 and second edition 1971 reads:
28 And he came to her and said, “Hail, O favored one, the Lord is with you!”
For fun, I quote the The New Revised Standard Version (NRSV) 1989 edition which renders the verse this way:
28 And he came to her and said, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you!”
The NAB and The NJB are basically in agreement with the RSV. Much different from what you quoted, do you agree? Monica- full of grace or favored?
L
Linda_Marie
Guest
Perhaps instead of debating which English translation is preferred, we might go back to original Greek to see which is more accurate.
The word is kecharitomene. Kecharitomene is difficult to translate because there is no equivalent in English. Here are 3 sites which go into detail about the translation and what the Greek really means.
geocities.com/Athens/Atrium/8410/kecharitomene.html
bringyou.to/apologetics/a116.htm
catholicapologetics.net/grace.htm
At any rate, even if one claims she is ‘only’ highly favoured, she is still highly favoured** by God **and those whom God holds in high favour, I also will hold in high favour.
In saying that she was a mere vessel, do Protestants think that God withdrew His favour from her after she gave birth to Jesus? Did He just use her, then?
Please explain this position.
The word is kecharitomene. Kecharitomene is difficult to translate because there is no equivalent in English. Here are 3 sites which go into detail about the translation and what the Greek really means.
geocities.com/Athens/Atrium/8410/kecharitomene.html
bringyou.to/apologetics/a116.htm
catholicapologetics.net/grace.htm
At any rate, even if one claims she is ‘only’ highly favoured, she is still highly favoured** by God **and those whom God holds in high favour, I also will hold in high favour.
In saying that she was a mere vessel, do Protestants think that God withdrew His favour from her after she gave birth to Jesus? Did He just use her, then?
Please explain this position.
M
Monica4316
Guest
what is interesting about this word is that it implies on ongoing ‘state’ of something… not just one event. So if the Angel called Mary favoured, or full of grace, he would not just be referring to that moment, but to something that happened before. (the Immaculate Conception?)
I hope not!
J
jhash1
Guest
Dear friends in Christ,
I would invite everyone to consider the following passages about honoring Mary. She is much more than a “vessel” and has a very special place in the life of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ:
The Gospel of Luke, Chapter 1, verses 26-30:
In the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a town of Galilee called Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man named Joseph, of the house of David, and the virgin’s name was Mary. And coming to her, he said, “Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you”. But she was greatly troubled at what was said and wondered what sort of greeting this might be. Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.”
It seems to me if the angel from God calls our Blessed Mother a “favored one” and tells her she has “found favor with God” that those are good credentials for honoring her.
The Gospel of Luke, Chapter 1, verses 39 - 45:
During those days Mary set out and traveled to the hill country in haste to a town of Judah, where she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, “Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled.”
In this passage we see that Elizabeth was “filled with the Holy Spirit” and both Elizabeth and her son John the Baptist honored our Blessed Mother Mary. When one is filled with the Holy Spirit, we all know God is at work in our lives.
Our Lord also indicated the honor he had for his earthly mother when he spoke from the Cross in the Gospel of John, Chapter 19, verses 25 - 30:
Standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary of Magdala. When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple whom he loved, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold your son.” Then he said to the disciple, “Behold your mother.” And from that hour the disciple took her into his home. After that, aware that everything was now finished, in order that the scripture might be fulfilled, Jesus said, “I thirst.” There was a vessel filled with a common wine. So they put a sponge soaked in wine on a sprig of hyssop and put it up to his mouth. When Jesus had taken the wine, he said, “It is finished.” And bowing his head, he handed over the spirit.
In this passage we see that the very last thing our Lord did was to have his beloved discipline John take his mother Mary into his house and in doing so asked all of us to “behold your mother” and honor her, just as he did as his last act of his human life on earth.
I know various Bibles will likely have a different translation from the passages I have listed above, but I also know that the basic meaning is consistent from Bible translation to Bible translation.
It is not hard for me to understand that we should join the Angel of the Lord, Elizabeth, John the Baptist, the Apostle John, and our Lord Jesus in honoring Mary his mother.
Blessed be our Lord Jesus Christ, who lives and reigns with the Father and the Holy Spirit, one God for ever and ever.
Amen.
I would invite everyone to consider the following passages about honoring Mary. She is much more than a “vessel” and has a very special place in the life of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ:
The Gospel of Luke, Chapter 1, verses 26-30:
In the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a town of Galilee called Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man named Joseph, of the house of David, and the virgin’s name was Mary. And coming to her, he said, “Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you”. But she was greatly troubled at what was said and wondered what sort of greeting this might be. Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.”
It seems to me if the angel from God calls our Blessed Mother a “favored one” and tells her she has “found favor with God” that those are good credentials for honoring her.
The Gospel of Luke, Chapter 1, verses 39 - 45:
During those days Mary set out and traveled to the hill country in haste to a town of Judah, where she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, “Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled.”
In this passage we see that Elizabeth was “filled with the Holy Spirit” and both Elizabeth and her son John the Baptist honored our Blessed Mother Mary. When one is filled with the Holy Spirit, we all know God is at work in our lives.
Our Lord also indicated the honor he had for his earthly mother when he spoke from the Cross in the Gospel of John, Chapter 19, verses 25 - 30:
Standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary of Magdala. When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple whom he loved, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold your son.” Then he said to the disciple, “Behold your mother.” And from that hour the disciple took her into his home. After that, aware that everything was now finished, in order that the scripture might be fulfilled, Jesus said, “I thirst.” There was a vessel filled with a common wine. So they put a sponge soaked in wine on a sprig of hyssop and put it up to his mouth. When Jesus had taken the wine, he said, “It is finished.” And bowing his head, he handed over the spirit.
In this passage we see that the very last thing our Lord did was to have his beloved discipline John take his mother Mary into his house and in doing so asked all of us to “behold your mother” and honor her, just as he did as his last act of his human life on earth.
I know various Bibles will likely have a different translation from the passages I have listed above, but I also know that the basic meaning is consistent from Bible translation to Bible translation.
It is not hard for me to understand that we should join the Angel of the Lord, Elizabeth, John the Baptist, the Apostle John, and our Lord Jesus in honoring Mary his mother.
Blessed be our Lord Jesus Christ, who lives and reigns with the Father and the Holy Spirit, one God for ever and ever.
Amen.
T
tcm22
Guest
So what is your view of Mary and your understanding of the Catholic Church’s devotion to her?
Are you here to troll or are you here to discuss? If you know what and in whom you believe, are you going to share it in this thread or debate scriptural translations?
“Full of grace” or “favored one”…I’m good with either since the point, well supported by the Church, is that Mary is worthy of our devotion. Whether one chooses to believe she is favored vs full of grace, it’s clear God views her as having a special role in our salvation, beyond a mere vessel.
A
adelore
Guest
Jon Hus,
Yes you may say I have had a wonderful experience. I fell away from the Catholic Church when I was 19, (the Lord lead me Back Home to the Catholic Church a year ago. By the way I’m 52, so that’s a lot of years spending time in Protest. Churchs. Twice on Sunday, Wed nights, Monday Bible Studies, and Thrusday Bible Studies, not to mention the Monthly Womans Bible Study. Summer Vacation Bible School. (By the way, the Bible Studies were always lead by either the Pastor, an Elder or Decon.)
Like yourself I’ve lived in Many States and even in Germany for 3 1/2 years. During the years away from the Catholic Church, I spent several years attending different Protest. Churchs. Most of them I attended for at least 3 years or more at a time. (and not just on Sunday as the list above explains to you.) So I didn’t just “Happen” to be there on a Sunday when Mary was talked about on that day.
Baptist, Church of Christ, Non-denom, Reformed Churchs, and Community Churchs. I’ve also studied with Jehovahs Wittness for 7 years. Just to give you examples of the Protestant Churchs.
All this time I have thought that my Protestant experience is on a par with the typical North American Protestant churchgoer
If your talking about the Protestant Churchgoer as somene who only attends the Sunday Morning Service, as Typical, I think your fooling yourself. The Protestant Churchs and people I was around for years, (and still today that I know) went to both Morning and Evening Service on Sunday, Wed. Service, Bible Studies ect. These were/are the “typical” North American Protestant Churchgoers. (Of course if you’re only showing up on Sunday Morning, then you wouldn’t know, that turely you’re not the “typical” Protestant as you believe of yourself. Most Protestants are Very Devoted and attend more than just Sunday Morning.)
Someone who only attends on Sunday Morning Service…hmmm…is not the “typical” Protestant. (Maybe this is why you missed out so much on the “Mary talks”?)
Now I find out that no, Protestants, real Protestants spend lots of time discussing Mary! Look at what I’m missing out on! Yes I couldn’t agree with you more! Try being involved as much as the Typical Protestant** truely is **in the Church, (not just showing up on Sunday Morning) and you just might be amazed at what you’ll hear and what you’ve been missing.
So, I have to conclude adelore, that you must have this amazing ability to know just when to attend Protestant Churches, which one to attend so as to hit it on the exact day Mary is discussed. I salute you.
Be involved in the Protestant Church as much as I was and you’ll find there was no amazing ability… (as I explained I wasn’t just a Sunday Morning attender as you posting suggest that you are…maybe that’s why you’re missing out on so much.)- Status