Mary just a vessel?

[adelore]

I would simply like to see the reactions if these people that believe this about our Blessed Mother, if they would tell their own mothers that they were just vessels too…

Talk about lack of respect…

I couldn’t agree with your more!

After all God had a reason to pick Mary and only Mary. Mary is the perfect example to us. Yes she is the first Christian. If only we had faith like Mary did/does.

If anyone reads the Gospels, turely they will see Jesus had a love and much rescpect for His Mother. Who is also our Mother.

 

[adelore]

There is one thing I can safely say, after being brought up Catholic and then wandering for years (many) outside the Catholic Church in Protestant Churchs. You can take the Catholic out of the Catholic Church, but you’ll never fully take the Catholic Church out of the Catholic.

This is why for so many years in the Protestant Churchs it bothered me that yes they do refer to Mary as just a “Vessel” that God used. They do “down-play” Mary’s roll very much.

After all like I"ve already stated, God didn’t need a “Mother” for Jesus, He could have just made Jesus appear. After all God made the world, Adam and Eve have no Mother and we don’t have a problem with that.

Yet many Protestant Churchs, teach Mary was just a vessel or an end to a means, so to speak. Mary is not honored in Protestant Churchs, like we Catholics Honor her.

Food for Thought.

Name one person other than Mary that God favored so highly. It can’t be done, there is no one, not in the entire Bible or History.

Sure you can name others God favored, but none as Highly as He did Mary.

Only one woman was favored so highly that God allowed this Woman to carry His Only Son, nurse him, raise Him, love him and God trusted Only Mary, no other with this His Only Son.

Now let’s take it a step futher. Most people, (Catholics and Protestants) believe that God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit are One. Keeping this in mind…

So if God trusted, Favored, and Blessed Mary with Jesus, then God also trusted, Favored, and Blessed Mary with the Trinity. For if you truely believe that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are all One… then it only stands to reason on why Catholics (and every person, no matter what religion) should Honor and Adore Mary.

There was (and never will be) no other human on earth that has been so highly favored by God to be allowed to be this close to the Trinity as Mary.

A mere Vessle? I think Not!

 

[Monica4316]

Yet many Protestant Churchs, teach Mary was just a vessel or an end to a means, so to speak. Mary is not honored in Protestant Churchs, like we Catholics Honor her.

that is my experience too, when I was a Protestant…

yet Our Lady said: “all generations will call me blessed”

Name one person other than Mary that God favored so highly. It can’t be done, there is no one, not in the entire Bible or History.

she bore the eternal Word in her womb. She gave Jesus His human nature

 

[JoeJPurnell]

Hey Jon, take a lesson from Martin Luther:

“The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart. (Sermon, September 1, 1522).”

“[She is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ . . . She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures. (Sermon, Christmas, 1531).”

“No woman is like you. You are more than Eve or Sarah, blessed above all nobility, wisdom, and sanctity. (Sermon, Feast of the Visitation, 1537).”

“One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God’s grace . . . Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ . . . Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God. (Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521).”

The blood of Mary flows through the veins of Christ Jesus.

 

[ejb21]

There is one thing I can safely say, after being brought up Catholic and then wandering for years (many) outside the Catholic Church in Protestant Churchs. You can take the Catholic out of the Catholic Church, but you’ll never fully take the Catholic Church out of the Catholic.

This is why for so many years in the Protestant Churchs it bothered me that yes they do refer to Mary as just a “Vessel” that God used. They do “down-play” Mary’s roll very much.

After all like I"ve already stated, God didn’t need a “Mother” for Jesus, He could have just made Jesus appear. After all God made the world, Adam and Eve have no Mother and we don’t have a problem with that.

Yet many Protestant Churchs, teach Mary was just a vessel or an end to a means, so to speak. Mary is not honored in Protestant Churchs, like we Catholics Honor her.

Food for Thought.

Name one person other than Mary that God favored so highly. It can’t be done, there is no one, not in the entire Bible or History.

Sure you can name others God favored, but none as Highly as He did Mary.

Only one woman was favored so highly that God allowed this Woman to carry His Only Son, nurse him, raise Him, love him and God trusted Only Mary, no other with this His Only Son.

Now let’s take it a step futher. Most people, (Catholics and Protestants) believe that God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit are One. Keeping this in mind…

So if God trusted, Favored, and Blessed Mary with Jesus, then God also trusted, Favored, and Blessed Mary with the Trinity. For if you truely believe that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are all One… then it only stands to reason on why Catholics (and every person, no matter what religion) should Honor and Adore Mary.

There was (and never will be) no other human on earth that has been so highly favored by God to be allowed to be this close to the Trinity as Mary.

A mere Vessle? I think Not!

Mary is the only person who can stand before The Father and refer to Jesus as Your Son, and mine.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Mary just a vessel? or Holy Ark of the New Covenant;

The apostles Luke and John did not see Mary as just a vessel. Luke sees Mary as the New Ark of the Covenant, when the old Ark contained the Word of God written in stone, Mary carried the Word of God made flesh in her Womb and then gave birth to God (emmanuel). See the Old testament get fulfilled in this by reading the pararllels from 2Sam.6:2-11 compared to Luke1;39-44.

Also after the old ark of the covenant was lost to the Jewish nation, John the apostle a Christian Jew finds the New Ark of the covenant in heaven describing a “Woman” with child, Rev.11:19-12;1-2. After revealing to us from his gospel John 1:14 the Word of God became flesh.

The Ark of the covenant contained all the items that prefigured Mary’s womb, the Word of God, bread from heaven, the Shepherds staff, inluding the ark itself which contained acacia wood symbolizing humanity over cased with gold which symbolizes divnity, as Mary was overshadowed by the divine Holy Spirit.

One example of the Ark from the old testament is “no one” unworthy was to come near it, or touch it, less they die. I would not chance messing with Jesus mother.

 

[GodIsGracious]

[deletia mine]

One example of the Ark from the old testament is “no one” unworthy was to come near it, or touch it, less they die. I would not chance messing with Jesus mother.

No kidding!

And I agree that when Protestants consider Mary to be “just a vessel,” they are being DISRESPECTFUL to Christ’s mother. They wouldn’t tolerate that if someone was disrespectful to their mother. IMO, this goes to show that they’re just in it for what they can get from Christ (eternal salvation) by doing nothing, rather than what they can do for Him.

You see it all over these boards. They claim that Christ did it all and they can just sit back rake in the salvation. And His special Blessed Mother? (turn on sarcasm) Who cares? She’s was ONLY a vessel for our Lord and Saviour.

 

[adelore]

My Dear Protestant Brother’s and Sister’s in Christ,

Please keep One thing in mind about this topic, it’s not that we are trying to convience any of you to become Catholic, far from it. We are only trying to explain and share why we Catholics do Honor and Adore Mary.

There have been many examples here on this topic to explain and show you the importance of Mary. (For those of you who want only to get your knowledge from the Bible, many on here have given lot’s of examples of where Mary ties into things. In the Old Testament and the New Testament.)

Although it is true that the Writings about Mary (her day to day life) may not compare to some of the writings of others in the Bible, the fact remains that before the New Testament came to be in written form, the knowledge was handed down by word of mouth.

When Jesus traveled sharing the “Good News”, it wasn’t by “written word” it was done by word of mouth.

When something is passed from one generation to another it is called “Tradition”. Tradition’s are not always passed by “written form”.

Mary is not just a “Catholic Mary”. She is the Mother of Our Lord and Savior, who plays a Big Part in the scheme of things. If one were to take the time and really take a look at Mary, you’d be amazed and realize not only of her importance, but why we Catholics hold her so dearly to our hearts.

What do you have to loose by doing a True study of Mary?

 

[kalt]

This has to be one of the most absurd and ignorant questions I’ve seen on this forum. Of COURSE the Catholic Church read the Bible - uh, WE WROTE THE THING!

Yes it is ok as long as you adhere to the forum rules. Only post a portion of it, and provide a link to the source. Check out the full forum rules for all the details.

~Liza

Not exactly true. We all know experts’ relatives who know nothing about the subject. The fact that the canon was established by the early Church means nothing. Unless a Catholic actually reads and studies it, he won’t know it. (And there are plenty of non-Catholics and non-Christians who know the text better than many Catholics)You seem to be claiming expertise by association. (I know you were just being funny. But I’m posting this before anyone tears you to shreds for it. Not telling you something you don’t already know.)

(Christians didn’t write the OT books. )

 

[kalt]

[deletia mine]

No kidding!

And I agree that when Protestants consider Mary to be “just a vessel,” they are being DISRESPECTFUL to Christ’s mother. They wouldn’t tolerate that if someone was disrespectful to their mother. IMO, this goes to show that they’re just in it for what they can get from Christ (eternal salvation) by doing nothing, rather than what they can do for Him.

You see it all over these boards. They claim that Christ did it all and they can just sit back rake in the salvation. And His special Blessed Mother? (turn on sarcasm) Who cares? She’s was ONLY a vessel for our Lord and Saviour.

Someone claimed that this position isn’t common in Protestant circles, but I’ve head it many times (from Protestants), too. Can we all be coming up against the same Protestant person?

I think this is a reaction to Catholicism, though, and is not about trying to get as much out of Christ for as little as possible. They have nothing against Mary. In fact, they might honor her as much as we do, if only Catholics didn’t.

I agree with you, though, that their common comment “only a vessel” is disprespectful, even if they don’t think she was something extra special. They also say that she was only Jesus’ mother while he was on earth, because he doesn’t need a mother in Heaven. They don’t beleive this of any other mother, of course. A mother is a mother forever, even in Heaven, except for Mary. But this is how they explain the “just a vessel” teaching.

I think it’s a sickening comment. A woman’s body used like that–and by God! Who could accept such a teaching?

 

[Good_Fella]

adelore asks: 2. So why Mary? Have any of the Prot. Chruchs really read the Bible and what it says about Mary?

A better question, somewhat related would be: Have any of the Cath. Chruchs really read the Bible and what is says about Mary?

“I will put enmity between you and the woman.”
Genesis 3, 15

Then Judith said to them, “Listen to me. I am about to do something that will go down through all generations of our descendants.”
Judith 8, 32

“I, your handmaid, have never eaten at the table of Haman, nor have I graced the banquet of the king or drunk the wine of libations. From the day I was brought here till now, your handmaid has had no joy except in you, O Lord, God of Abraham. O God, more powerful than all, hear the voice of those in despair. Save us from the power of the wicked, and deliver me from my fear.”
Esther C, 28-30

Then Mary said, “Behold, I am the Lord’s handmaid. Let it be done to me according to your word.”
Luke 1, 38

Then Uzziah said to her, “O daughter, you are blessed by the Most High God above all other women on earth, and blessed be the Lord God, who created the heavens and the earth, who has guided you to cut off the head of the leader of our enemies.”
Judith 13, 18

And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit, and exclaimed with a loud cry, “Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.”
Luke 1, 41-42

“Your praise will never depart from the hearts of those who remember the power of God. May God grant this to be a perpetual honor to you, and may he reward you with blessings, because you risked your own life when our nation was brought low, and you averted our ruin, walking in the straight path before our God.” And all the people said, “Amen. Amen.”
Judith 13, 19-20

“Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled.”
Luke 1, 45

“Behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed;
for the Mighty One has done great things for me,
and holy is his name.”
Luke 1, 48-49

The Catholic Bible is complete. Martin Luther and the early reformers discarded the books of Esther and Judith, although St. Luke considered these texts Sacred Scripture. Obviously you’ve missed something very important about the Blessed Virgin Mary in the divine order of redemption. Still the Judeo-Christians perceived the vital role Mary was called to play as the new Eve in the economy of salvation before the evangelist penned his gospel, which essentially is an acknowledgement of the Church’s Sacred Tradition.

PAX :harp:

 

[GodIsGracious]

Someone claimed that this position isn’t common in Protestant circles, but I’ve head it many times (from Protestants), too. Can we all be coming up against the same Protestant person?

I think this is a reaction to Catholicism, though, and is not about trying to get as much out of Christ for as little as possible. They have nothing against Mary. In fact, they might honor her as much as we do, if only Catholics didn’t.

I agree with you, though, that their common comment “only a vessel” is disprespectful, even if they don’t think she was something extra special. They also say that she was only Jesus’ mother while he was on earth, because he doesn’t need a mother in Heaven. They don’t beleive this of any other mother, of course. A mother is a mother forever, even in Heaven, except for Mary. But this is how they explain the “just a vessel” teaching.

I think it’s a sickening comment. A woman’s body used like that–and by God! Who could accept such a teaching?

I don’t know. I was thinking about your post and wondered who could “believe in” such a “god” that would simply use women for his own personal means. (Now that I think about this, isn’t that Zeus? ) This kind of attitude, regardless of who has it, is just dishonourable to all mothers. I wonder if some of these people were to really take it personal they’d consider their mothers to be “just a vessel” to be baby breeding machines. Doesn’t sound too nice.

 

[Good_Fella]

I don’t know. I was thinking about your post and wondered** who could “believe in” such a “god” that would simply use women for his own personal means**. (Now that I think about this, isn’t that Zeus? ) This kind of attitude, regardless of who has it, is just dishonourable to all mothers. I wonder if some of these people were to really take it personal they’d consider their mothers to be “just a vessel” to be baby breeding machines. Doesn’t sound too nice.

Indeed, God guided the hand of Judith. He didn’t forcefully grab it with a cold indifference towards her love for him and his people. Mary, whose soul magnified the Lord, freely consented to be the mother of our Lord in faith working through love. And because she believed in the word of the angel Gabriel, a child was born to save humankind. God called Mary because he knew she would say “Yes” to him. Judith said “Yes” in her prayer which was a free response to the Divine initiative. Both heroines collaborated with the work of divine grace, and by their merits helped save God’s people. Free will and love are the divine attributes we, who have been created in God’s image, possess. God will not deny what he has graciously granted us as his children. Eve assumed a self-will against our heavenly Father, and as a result of her pride and disobedience, mankind (Adam) subsequently fell from God’s grace and friendship. Only by exercising a free will directed towards God, could woman ever hope to help reconcile mankind with God. Eve’s hand was guided by the serpent when she reached for the apple.

“You are the glory of Jerusalem, you are the great boast of Israel, you are the great pride of our nation! You have done all this with your own hand; you have done great good to Israel, and God is well pleased with it. May the Almighty Lord bless you forever!” And all the people said, “Amen.”
Judith 15, 9-10

PAX :harp:

 

[Publisher]

In my opinion, many Catholics “go out of their way” to “make something” of a Protestants comment about Mary. “Just a vessel” must be put into the context it was spoken…or written…“just a vessel” in contrast to “mediatrix”…“queen of heaven”…mother of God"…“bearer of all grace”…“dispenser of all grace”…etc…it is not meant to be disrespectful, reagardless how Catholics seek to imply that it is…it is not…I have yet to meet a Protestant…and while my experiences in such matters is limited they representative of a Protestant experience…who would “insult” Mary in any way…she is/was a chosen vessel…she said “Yes” to God…Protestants get that…they honor her as the epitomy of faith and as a role model.

Protestants may go too far the other way…and seek to distance themselves from such devotion to Mary…not because they dishoner her…but because they seek to honor her Son more so…He is our All and in All…He is above every name on Earth and in Heaven…at His Name all Creation will bow to Him…including Mary along with us.

I have too noticed that Catholics will use very “emotionally charged” comments of “dishonoring all mothers”…something that strikes very vicerally at the hearts of those of us who have a love for our mother…implying if we dishonor Mary using your standards of what constitutes dishonor…we dishonor our own mothers…which is completey false.

We “speak past one another” so often. I have no doubt that Catholics honor Mary…I do not begrudge them their devotion to her…I have no doubt that those Protestants I have had the pleasure of knowing…do not dishonor her either…their traditions are different…their “faith language” is different…but Mary the mother of our Lord is held in high esteem…whether Protestants use the same language to honor her as Catholics do is another issue…but she is not dishonored by our words as many seem to imply…they simply are not “Catholic words”.

 

[Lilyflower]

“Who am I that the Mother of my Lord should visit me?” Lk 1:42

Don’t sound much like ‘just a vessel’ to me.

Even if she was ‘just’ a vessel, she was an incredible one to have contained God the Son and God the Holy Spirit in her body at the same time. Once at conception and for the next 9-months.

Just imagine being in such proximity. Just imagine God growing inside you. It is just too profound.

She then went on to feed, cuddle, cradle, nurse and teach ‘God’.

I find it incredible that the infinite omnipotent uncreated God was born and has a mother.
Further that the uncreated God has someone He can correctly call ‘mum!’

Wow

Blessings and peace.

 

[Monica4316]

Protestants may go too far the other way…and seek to distance themselves from such devotion to Mary…not because they dishoner her…but because they seek to honor her Son more so…

well that’s just it… we don’t honour the Son when we distance ourselves from His Mother in fact, we are then dishonouring Him.

the reason this Catholic devotion to Mary exists is because through Mary we can honour Christ better than without her. It exists for HIS sake.

 

[GodIsGracious]

well that’s just it… we don’t honour the Son when we distance ourselves from His Mother in fact, we are then dishonouring Him.

the reason this Catholic devotion to Mary exists is because through Mary we can honour Christ better than without her. It exists for HIS sake.

While I agree with you, I can hear it now that some would say that He doesn’t need it. I don’t think there is anyway a Catholic could “win” in just such a situation.

 

[LutheranDK]

I’ve heard in many Protestent Churchs I’ve attended that Mary (the Mother of Jesus) was just a vessel, that God could have picked Any Woman, but He just happened to pick Mary.

Hmmm…

Just a few thoughts for those of you who agree with the above statement, or who’s Church’s seem to teach this way of thinking.

1. Why would God even need a Mother for His Son, Jesus? (After all God created the World, Adam and Eve, the Animals, ect. So why even bother with a Mother for His Son, Why not just make Jesus “appear” and be done with it?)
2. So why Mary? Have any of the Prot. Chruchs really read the Bible and what it says about Mary?
3. To Confirm a Mis-belief about Catholics, (We don’t Worship Mary) We Honor and Adore Her. God says plenty about why He choose Mary.

I’m not going to argue #3, because I happen to be one of the “protestants” who knows what the official teaching on Mary is, and therefore not accuse the RC church of worshipping her.

Now, for #1 and #2

1: All humans since Adam and Eve have been created in the same way - by spending 9 months in the womb of a woman, followed by being born. That Jesus was born of Mary says nothing about Mary, except that she’s a woman (able to bear a child).

2: Yes. Quite contrary to the rantings often found in here, non RCs actually DO read the Bible comprehensively and contextually…and STILL come to different conclusions.
Actually, from where I’m sitting, it is the RC church which is doing the selective (and often times quite…unreasonable) reading.

So here’s part of what I (because I can only speak for myself) believe about Mary:

1: Mary was (note the emphasis) the Theotokos. To deny this, is to deny that Jesus is Theos, and is therefore heresy.

2: Mary was chosen by God as the vessel through which He would enter the world. The vessel of the Incarnation.

 

[Good_Fella]

That Jesus was born of Mary says nothing about Mary, except that she’s a woman (able to bear a child).

But Mary bore no ordinary child.

And the angel said to her in reply, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.”
Luke 1, 35

That Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary says a lot about his blessed mother.

And coming to her [the angel] said, “Hail, favored one!”* The Lord is with you."
Luke 1, 28

• kecharitomene, meaning “perfected by grace”

“Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.”
Luke 1, 42

“He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption.”
Hippolytus of Rome (A.D. 235)

Mary was (note the emphasis) the Theotokos. To deny this, is to deny that Jesus is Theos, and is therefore heresy.

From all eternity God has preordained that the Virgin Mary be the woman who should bear His Only-begotten Son. In her extraordinary and unique position with God, our Blessed Mother is the Theotokos. We can refer to the Incarnation and Nativity of our Lord in the simple past tense, since these are events in the history of salvation. But our Lady’s singular postion with God isn’t a historical event. Mary is the Theotokos, the woman who has borne the Son of God.

Mary was chosen by God as the vessel through which He would enter the world. The vessel of the Incarnation.

“And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?”
Luke 1, 43

Mary was chosen to be the mother of our Lord: not his container. Paul tells the Galatians that Jesus was “made” of a woman. As a man Jesus resembled his mother in all her virtuous characteristics and purity. Your focus on our Lord’s divinity is too excessive. Jesus is both fully a man and God.

“As he formed her without any stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain.”
*Proclus of Constantinople (ante.A.D. 446) *

Pax Christu :harp:

 

[LutheranDK]

But Mary bore no ordinary child.

And the angel said to her in reply, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.”
Luke 1, 35

That Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary says a lot about his blessed mother.

The fact that Jesus was born of Mary does not in and of itself say anything about Mary, except what I previously said: She was a woman (able to give birth), which is a pretty moot point.

And coming to her [the angel] said, “Hail, favored one!”* The Lord is with you."
Luke 1, 28

• kecharitomene, meaning “perfected by grace”

Please elaborate on your reasons for offering that translation of κεχαριτωμένη. It’s not at all obvious.

Louw-Nida, in “Greek-English Lexicon of the NT” translates χαριτόω as “to show kindness”, which would therefore mean: “…you who have been shown kindness”, whereas Thayer (also in his “Greek-English Lexicon of the NT”) gives several options:
“pursue with grace”
“compass with favor”
“honor with blessings”.

And those are only two scholars…should I go on?
My point is that your translation is not at all obvious from the text.

“Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.”
Luke 1, 42

No arguments there. And by this, mean both that I do not disagree with you here, nor can I see the relevance to the point you’re trying to make.
Mary WAS blessed amongst women, because she was chosen to be the bearer of the Son of God…who, naturally, was blessed.