Mary just a vessel?

[LutheranDK]

“He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption.”
Hippolytus of Rome (A.D. 235)

Alright. Now, if you would be so kind as to provide me with Hippolytus’ reasons for making this statement; his rationale from Scripture, so that we can see if it holds up to scrutiny. I won’t just say: “Well, Hippolytus said so, so it must be true”.

From all eternity God has preordained that the Virgin Mary be the woman who should bear His Only-begotten Son.

Yes, God chose Mary from eternity. No arguments there, because it can clearly be argued from Scripture that ALL believers were chosen by God from eternity.
However, do you seriously believe that if Mary had told the angel to sod off, that God would have had to give up His plans for the redemption of mankind?
Good Fella;5420177:

In her extraordinary and unique position with God, our Blessed Mother is

the Theotokos.

Nope. She was the Theotokos because she gave birth to Him who is Theos. That does not say anything for or against any kind of “unique position with God” on Mary’s part, in the sense that she should be without sin.

We can refer to the Incarnation and Nativity of our Lord in the simple past tense, since these are events in the history of salvation. But our Lady’s singular postion with God isn’t a historical event.

I’m uncertain as to what you’re saying here?
Because if (and please note that I’m not conceeding this) Mary was without sin, even original sin, then that “purification” of her most certainly had to be a historical event. To deny this, is to say that it didn’t happen, and that would actually, ironically, land you at the position I’m at.

Mary is

the Theotokos, the woman who has borne the Son of God.

Mary was the Theotokos, yes.

“And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?”
Luke 1, 43

What are you trying to say here? That Mary is the mother of Our Lord? I know that already! I believe that already!

Mary was chosen to be the mother of our Lord: not his container.

sigh
Yes, Mary was the mother of God. How many times do I have to tell you that we don’t disagree here??
Good Fella;5420177:

Paul tells the Galatians that Jesus was “made” of a woman. As a man Jesus resembled his mother in all her virtuous characteristics and purity. Your focus on our Lord’s divinity is too excessive. Jesus is both fully a man and God.

I’m sorry, but…
Are you saying that Jesus lived a pure, sinless life because Mary was sinless?? This is not a trick question, I want to know what you’re saying here, because it reads as if you’re saying that Mary’s sinlessness is the reason for Jesus being able to live without sin.
That’s just…
So Jesus being יְהוָה has nothing to do with it?

Secondly: I do not focus solely on Jesus’ divinity. I’m no docetist! Jesus was indeed fully man and fully God. And please don’t change the subject.

“As he formed her without any stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain.”
*Proclus of Constantinople (ante.A.D. 446) *

As with Hippolytus, I’d like to see the rationale behind those statements…

 

[Publisher]

well that’s just it… we don’t honour the Son when we distance ourselves from His Mother in fact, we are then dishonouring Him.

the reason this Catholic devotion to Mary exists is because through Mary we can honour Christ better than without her. It exists for HIS sake.

No, Protestants do not dishonor the Son by not showing Catholic devotion to Mary…for Catholics who can honor Christ better by their devotion to Mary…wonderful…but for those Protestants who do not share your belief or devotion…to do so would be “empty words” since it is not something they share.

They honor the Son of God…the Giver of Life…the Alpha and Omega by their devotion to Him…not to His earthly mother…she still after all is “creature”…perhaps marvelously perfect and holy by human standards…but creature still…and she too will one day bow before Him at the Last Day and proclaim Him Lord…right alongs side the rest of us creatures who have shared in His Nature.

 

[theistgal]

No, Protestants do not dishonor the Son by not showing Catholic devotion to Mary…for Catholics who can honor Christ better by their devotion to Mary…wonderful…but for those Protestants who do not share your belief or devotion…to do so would be “empty words” since it is not something they share.

Beautifully said! I think sometimes we Catholics are too quick to judge other Christians by external standards (the words and gestures they use) rather than taking the time to find out what’s in their hearts. (And vice versa. )

 

[Linda_Marie]

Please do not discuss the Immaculate Conception since that is not the topic of this thread and is derailing it. We are discussing if Mary was ‘just a vessel’.

After the love of God, did Christ not command us to love one another as He has loved us? We are to love others the way God loves others. We are to love those whom God loves.

God loves Mary. He created her specifically to be His Mother. He has loved her from the moment He created her. He has never stopped loving her. If He can stop loving Mary, He can stop loving me and that is a thought I just cannot entertain, it is too frightening.

Calling Mary ‘a mere vessel’ and ‘nothing special’ does disrespect her. A mother is far more than a womb. Do those who believe this think that Christ thinks His mother is ‘nothing special’? Throughout history, there has always been a special relationship between mothers and their sons. I believe that Christ has a special relationship with His mother and that they are closer than any of us can ever hope to come.

I have some Fundamentalist friends who absolutely freeze up and cringe at the name of Mary (even at Christmas), lest they inadvertantly accord her any respect or honor at all. They act like they’d rather God had used any other means than Mary to bring Christ into the world.

These same people have no trouble elevating Paul and honouring him. They do not think that any honour they give to Paul detracts from the worship they give Christ. Why do they have so much trouble according His mother even the same respect as they give to Paul?

Since Christ is our brother, that makes Mary our mother as well. We are all Family, the Family of Christ. Christ honours His mother. I will continue to imitate Christ and honour His mother as well.

 

[LutheranDK]

Please do not discuss the Immaculate Conception since that is not the topic of this thread and is derailing it. We are discussing if Mary was ‘just a vessel’.

After the love of God, did Christ not command us to love one another as He has loved us? We are to love others the way God loves others. We are to love those whom God loves.

Amen
We are to love all people, because God loves all people.

God loves Mary. He created her specifically to be His Mother. He has loved her from the moment He created her. He has never stopped loving her. If He can stop loving Mary, He can stop loving me and that is a thought I just cannot entertain, it is too frightening.

We’re not discussing if God loves Mary or not. Of course He does! But all of what you say above about Mary (He loves her, he created her for a purpose, He has loved her from that moment of creation, and never stopped loving her), holds true for all people, not only Mary.

Calling Mary ‘a mere vessel’ and ‘nothing special’ does disrespect her. A mother is far more than a womb. Do those who believe this think that Christ thinks His mother is ‘nothing special’? Throughout history, there has always been a special relationship between mothers and their sons.

The “mere vessel” is to be seen as a contrast to the piedestal that the RC church (and the EO church, for that matter) puts Mary on.
Of course, no human being is regarded by God, or should be regarded by us, as merely a means to an end. The point I’m trying to make, is that there is no difference between the status of Mary, and the status of you or I. Mary is dead in Christ, and awaits His recoming, the ressurection of the living and the dead, where she will be with Him forever. God grant that this will happen to the rest of us as well.

I believe that Christ has a special relationship with His mother and that they are closer than any of us can ever hope to come.

That is your right (and your duty as an RC I believe ), but I have still not seen any substantial arguments at all for this view.

I have some Fundamentalist friends who absolutely freeze up and cringe at the name of Mary (even at Christmas), lest they inadvertantly accord her any respect or honor at all. They act like they’d rather God had used any other means than Mary to bring Christ into the world.

I think I can explain that: Seeing how the RC church, in their eyes, worships Mary, they go to the opposite extreme. Not a very rational, or Christian, way of thinking, but a very human one, though.

These same people have no trouble elevating Paul and honouring him. They do not think that any honour they give to Paul detracts from the worship they give Christ. Why do they have so much trouble according His mother even the same respect as they give to Paul?

But they don’t pray to him, ask him to intercede, etc, and that’s where, I would imagine, they think the RC church goes too far: By praying to Mary (and Paul, btw).

Since Christ is our brother, that makes Mary our mother as well. We are all Family, the Family of Christ. Christ honours His mother. I will continue to imitate Christ and honour His mother as well.

1: Unless you came out of Mary’s womb 2000 years ago (give and take), Mary is not your mother. We are Christ’s brothers and sisters, because we have the same Father, not the same mother.

2: Where do you see Christ “honoring” Mary in the sense that the RC and EO church do?

 

[theistgal]

Amen
1: Unless you came out of Mary’s womb 2000 years ago (give and take), Mary is not your mother. We are Christ’s brothers and sisters, because we have the same Father, not the same mother.

So who is our mother, then, if not Mary? Seems to me that if we don’t have both the same mother AND the same father, we’re not completely His brothers & sisters.

 

[Good_Fella]

Alright. Now, if you would be so kind as to provide me with Hippolytus’ reasons for making this statement; his rationale from Scripture, so that we can see if it holds up to scrutiny. I won’t just say: “Well, Hippolytus said so, so it must be true”.

Hippolytus contended against the heretic Noetus that Jesus was physically human and possessed a human nature as genuine as ours. His human soul, mind, and will were acquired through his mother Mary. Jesus was her seed (Gen 3:15), so his humanity wasn’t merely an appearance. Paul tells us that the Word of God emptied himself as a slave becoming just like we are. Indeed, Jesus was “in the likeness of sinful flesh” (Rom 8:3). The flesh he took from Mary was that which like ours is prone to sin, but in which our Lord sin had been laid aside. It seems the bishop believed Mary was fashioned pure and undefiled as a type of ark so that her holy offspring would be made out of an incorruptible flesh. In other words, it would be unfitting for the One who is absolute sanctity himself to inherit the stain of the sin of Adam upon acquiring a genuine human nature through his mother. Original sin is contracted from both parents. And besides, Luke traces the Son of Man’s genealogy back to Adam. His mother was a descendant of Adam herself. Christ’s divine nature came through the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit and is radically distinct from his human nature.

God chose Mary from eternity. No arguments there, because it can clearly be argued from Scripture that ALL believers were chosen by God from eternity.

God chose Mary because he foreknew she would choose him over any selfish desires that would be aversive to the will of God. The predestined elect comprise all believers who have chosen God by freely collaborating with the work of the unmerited gift of divine grace. Our collaboration serves to merit our salvation which isn’t imposed upon us. Mary could rejoice in God her savior with a certitude of faith because of her Fiat. The teachings of Luther and Calvin regarding the predestination of the elect are unbiblical and false novelties.

However, do you seriously believe that if Mary had told the angel to sod off, that God would have had to give up His plans for the redemption of mankind?

If God had depended on Mary to help bring the Savior into the world, then we’d have to presuppose that he was uncertain of what her response would be. Since God has preordained from all eternity that his Only-begotten Son should redeem the world, desiring that all humankind be saved, he chose a woman whom he foreknew would say yes. God put Abraham to the test since he foreknew that the father of Isaac would obey him. But it was because Abraham faithfully believed God that all nations would be blessed through him in his descendants. (Gen 22:18). Elizabeth praised Mary as truly blessed for having believed what was told her by the angel (Lk 1:45). Mary’s faith working through love played a key role in the economy of salvation. Our Blessed Mother wasn’t chosen simply as a biological instrument to provide actual flesh for the Word of God. God wills to be welcomed in our hearts before he will save us from our sins.

Continued…

 

[Good_Fella]

Nope. She was the Theotokos because she gave birth to Him who is Theos. That does not say anything for or against any kind of “unique position with God” on Mary’s part, in the sense that she should be without sin.

The divine order of redemption is an initiative originating from God who transcends time and space. In the divine economy of salvation the Blessed Virgin Mary is the Theotokos. If Mary is no longer the “most blessed among women” for having borne the Son of God, then Jesus can no longer be the Son of the Most High by your reasoning. She has been blessed by virtue of her offspring’s divinity. Luke is the first Christian writer to have compared Mary to the pure and undefiled ark of the Old Covenant. The Judeo-Christians of his time clearly perceived Mary to be the holy Theotokos. The ark of the Covenant is the most sacred religious vessel in Judaism and was highly venerated by the ancient Jews. God instructed Moses to fashion the ark out of incorruptible wood and to line it with pure gold for it was to contain the Word of God. Jesus is the Word become flesh. He gloriously exists in heaven body and soul together with Mary. She is still his mother.

Now with you is Wisdom, who knows your works and was present when you made the world.
Wisdom 9, 9

Into an evil soul wisdom enters not, nor dwells she in a body under debt of sin.
Wisdom 1, 4

“Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.”
Luke 1, 43

In their humanity both Jesus and Mary are equally blessed above and apart from the rest of a fallen human race in their purity and sinlessness (cf. Gen 3:15).

If Mary was without sin, even original sin, then that “purification” of her most certainly had to be a historical event. To deny this, is to say that it didn’t happen, and that would actually, ironically, land you at the position I’m at.

Mary’s conception was a historical event. Her unique redemption at the first instance of her conception transcends the constraints of time. She was redeemed by the merits of her divine Son’s death on the cross before he was even born. Mary said to Bernadette of Lourdes: “I am the Immaculate Conception.”

Mary was the Theotokos, yes.

Try convincing Michael Jackson fans that the performer “was” the King of Pop. I’m sure they will contest that he “is” the King of Pop even though he is no longer singing and dancing.

That Mary is the mother of Our Lord? I know that already! I believe that already!
sigh
Yes, Mary was the mother of God. How many times do I have to tell you that we don’t disagree here??

I can’t agree or disagree with you until you decide whether Mary “is” or “was” the mother of our Lord (Meter ho Kirios), “Mother of God”, God who exists eternally and forever.

Are you saying that Jesus lived a pure, sinless life because Mary was sinless??

Jesus lived a personally sinless life by his substantial grace of union with the Father. But he never inherited the stain of original sin - a human condition - from his mother, for she had no concupiscence affecting her in her manner of life with regard to the potential to sin. Mary was preserved free from the stain of original sin which doesn’t carry the weight of any personal guilt. Mary lived a sinless life in emulation of her divine Son with the help of God’s grace.

Secondly: I do not focus solely on Jesus’ divinity. I’m no docetist! Jesus was indeed fully man and fully God. And please don’t change the subject.

I said “excessively”.

As with Hippolytus, I’d like to see the rationale behind those statements…

Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? No one!
Job 14:4

Not even Mary unless she were preserved free from the stain of original sin and possessed no flesh prone to the corruption of sin, nor unless Jesus wasn’t fully human in his divine Person. The Son of Man would have been in need of redemption if for an instant he was preserved free from the stain of original sin by God’s intervention at his conception in the womb of Mary. Bishop Proclus may have considered this implication.

Pax Christu :harp:

 

[Joe_Brown]

catholic.com/library/Mary_Mother_of_God.asp
catholic.com/library/Mary_Full_of_Grace.asp
catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp
catholic.com/library/Do_Catholics_Worship_Statues.asp
shop.catholic.com/product.php?productid=426

Here are some links for our protestant brothers. I hope this will help answer your questions because it is pretty clear God Bless!

 

[Joe_Brown]

catholic.com/library/mary_saints.asp

 

[ufamtobie]

adelore asks:

2. So why Mary? Have any of the Prot. Chruchs really read the Bible and what it says about Mary?

A better question, somewhat related would be: Have any of the Cath. Chruchs really read the Bible and what is says about Mary?

1. (Matt 1:23) “The Virgin” shall be with Child and give birth to a Son, and they shall call Him Emmanuel."

Jon Hus, the above bible verse states “THE VIRGIN” not a Virgin, this only can mean that Virgin Mary was the only one destined to have the Son of God, and no other woman but Virgin Mary.

2.The Angel Gabriel to Virgin Mary: Hail Mary Full of Grace, the Lord is with thee Blessed art thou among women…Do not fear Mary you have found favor with God.

1. (Luke 1: 41-45) When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leapt in her womb.

Elizabeth was FILLED with the HOLY SPIRIT and cried out in a loud voice: "Blest are you among women and blest is the fruit of your womb.

But WHOM am I that the Mother of My Lord should come to me?

The Moment your greeting sounded in my ears , the baby leapt in my womb for JOY

Blest is She who Trusted in the LORD’S Word to her would be fullfilled.

Jon Hus, The above bible verse states that Elizabeth WAS filled with the Holy Spirit, there for the one who is truly praising Virgin Mary here is not only Elizabeth and the baby leaping for Joy but it is the Holy Spirit as well, who is praising Virgin Mary

Now if Elizabeth, and the Baby along with the Holy Spirit Praises the Virgin Mary, why can we all Praise Her, the Mother of Jesus Christ in the same Manner as these do.

1. (Luke 2: 35) and you yourself SHALL be PIERCED with a SWORD- so that the thoughts of many heart may laid bare.

Jon Hus, the above bible veres states that Virgin Mary had to suffer a sword in her heart for us all that our hearts may be laid bare. Jon Hus, do you believe you are part of the many, that your Heart might be laid bare through the suffering of Virgin Mary?

Ufam Tobie

 

[Joe_Brown]

BLESSED VIRGIN MARY
Mary
Lk 1:28, 30 - angel: "full of grace, found favor with God
Lk 1:42 - Elizabeth: “most blessed among women”
Lk 1:48 - Mary: “all generations will call me blessed”

Mother of God
Lk 1:43 - Elizabeth calls her “mother of my Lord” = God
Mt 1:23 - virgin bear a son, Emmanuel = “God is with us”
Lk 1:35 - child born will be called holy, the Son of God
Gal 4:4 - God sent his Son, born of a woman

The Assumption
Gn 5:24 (Hb 11:5) - Enoch taken to heaven without dying
2Kg 2:11 - Elijah assumed into heaven in fiery chariot
Mt 27:52 - many saints who had fallen asleep were raised
1Thess 4:17 - caught up to meet the Lord in the air
1Cor 15:52 - we shall be instantly changed at the last trumpet
Rom 6:23 - for the wages of sin is death
Rev 11:19-21 - ark in heaven = woman clothed in sun
Ps 132:8 - Arise, O Lord & go to thy resting place, thou & the ark of thy might

The Immaculate Conception
Lk 1:28 - hail full of grace[highly favored] Lord is with you
Lk 1:30 - you have found favor with God
Lk 1:37 - for with God nothing shall be impossible
Gn 3:15 - complete enmity between woman & Satan, sin
Ex 25:11-21 - ark made of purest gold for God’s word
*Rom 3:23 - all have sinned & are deprived of God’s glory
*Lk 1:47 - my spirit rejoices in God my Savior

Perpetual Virginity
Lk 1:34 - how can this be, since I do not know man
Lk 2:41-51 - age 12, Jesus evidently only son of Mary
Mk 6:3 - “the son of Mary” not “a son of Mary”
*Mt 13:55-56 - brothers James, Joseph, Simon & Jude
Mt 27:56 - Mary the mother of James & Joseph also
Jn 19:25 - Mary the wife of Clopas
Jn 19:26 - entrusted Mary to John, not a younger sibling
Jn 7:3-4 - brothers advise like elders: “go to Judea, manifest self”
unthinkable for younger siblings (see next verse)
Mk 3:21 - set out to seize him, “he is out of his mind”
*Mt 1:25 - Joseph knew her not until she bore first-born
Mt 28:20 - I am with you always, until the end of the age
1Tim 4:13 - until I arrive, attend to reading, teaching…
1Cor 15:25 - he must reign until has enemies underfoot
Lk 1:80 - John in desert until day of his manifestation
Ex 13:2; Nb 3:12 - consecrate first -born that opens womb
Ex 34:20 - first-born among your sons you shall redeem

 

[LutheranDK]

So who is our mother, then, if not Mary? Seems to me that if we don’t have both the same mother AND the same father, we’re not completely His brothers & sisters.

I know who my mother is, but I don’t know who yours is?
Secondly: Your reasoning might be understandable from a modern point of view. But:

1: It rests on a premise that you do not believe, id est that The Holy Spirit “knew” Mary, and that is how Jesus was conceived. Only if this is true, can your statement be true.
1.1: Of course, that would also mean that for us to be Brothers and Sisters of
Christ, we too would have had to be born as the result of The Holy Spirit’s
“knowledge” of Mary.

2: We cannot impose modern perspectives unto a 2000 year old statement. Back then, if you were adopted, you were seen as your father’s son/daughter, and his children were seen as your bothers and sisters. The distinction we today have between “half-brothers”, etc, didn’t (to my knowledge) exist legally.
Therefore: We have been adopted by God, and therefor Christ is our Brother. We are Brothers and Sisters because we have the same Father, not the same mother.

 

[tcm22]

I know who my mother is, but I don’t know who yours is?
Secondly: Your reasoning might be understandable from a modern point of view. But:

1: It rests on a premise that you do not believe, id est that The Holy Spirit “knew” Mary, and that is how Jesus was conceived. Only if this is true, can your statement be true.
1.1: Of course, that would also mean that for us to be Brothers and Sisters of
Christ, we too would have had to be born as the result of The Holy Spirit’s
“knowledge” of Mary.

2:** We cannot impose modern perspectives unto a 2000 year old statement.** Back then, if you were adopted, you were seen as your father’s son/daughter, and his children were seen as your bothers and sisters. The distinction we today have between “half-brothers”, etc, didn’t (to my knowledge) exist legally.
Therefore: We have been adopted by God, and therefor Christ is our Brother. We are Brothers and Sisters because we have the same Father, not the same mother.

You’ve just offered one of the best arguments for the Magisterium and the importance of Sacred Tradition. Catholics do not impose perspectives on scripture, but look to Christ’s Church for valid interpretation.

The imposition of modern perspectives without authoritative guidance is one of the primary reasons for the fractured and chaotic state of the Protestant universe. Interestingly, enough, if we are all allowed, as in the Protestant tradition, to interpret scripture based on our own sense of “truth,” then we are certainly able to impose whatever perspective we bring to the issue. Who’s to say it’s right or wrong without valid authority.

I believe that Mary conceived through the power of the Holy Spirit based on my understanding of scripture. Isn’t that what Protestantism is all about? That the Church teaches that as a basic doctrine is just a bonus for us Catholics, right?

 

[LutheranDK]

You’ve just offered one of the best arguments for the Magisterium and the importance of Sacred Tradition. Catholics do not impose perspectives on scripture, but look to Christ’s Church for valid interpretation.

Please stop changing the subject to derail the thread? What is your answer to the part of the section that you DIDN’T highlight?

 

[tcm22]

Please stop changing the subject to derail the thread? What is your answer to the part of the section that you DIDN’T highlight?

I’m not changing the thread, I’m responding directly to one of the points you made in your post. To be honest, I didn’t quite follow your reasoning in the first part of your post, but did want to point out the implications of your position to support the Catholic view of Tradition, Scripture and Magisterium. You admonish the poster against taking a “modern perspective,” yet your whole approach is to interpret scripture through whatever framework you see fit.

In the case of Catholics, our understanding of Mary’s role in salvation is based on Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Magisterium of the Catholic Church.

Your understanding, modern perspective or not, is based on your own individual understanding of the Scripture. Unless you claim some authority, intelligence, or insight great than my own you should extend the same privilege to me and other Catholics. My perspective of scripture, albeit shaped by the teachings of the Catholic Church, is that Mary is our spiritual mother and is worthy of our veneration. That’s certainly NOT a modern perspective.