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Like a lot of protestants willing to consider converting, I have struggled a little with some Catholic teaching on Mary…particularly with regards to her Immaculate Conception.

I know about the thought of her being the new ark of the covenant etc, but how can one know this was the belief of the apostles? I understand many believe Gabriel’s greeting ‘‘full of grace’’ refers to it, but that aside, can anyone point me in the direction of the early church fathers and so on…what did they believe?

And how can the church’s belief of Mary having been sinless be reconciled with the bible’s ‘‘all have sinned’’?
 
Like a lot of protestants willing to consider converting, I have struggled a little with some Catholic teaching on Mary…particularly with regards to her Immaculate Conception.

I know about the thought of her being the new ark of the covenant etc, but how can one know this was the belief of the apostles? I understand many believe Gabriel’s greeting ‘‘full of grace’’ refers to it, but that aside, can anyone point me in the direction of the early church fathers and so on…what did they believe?

And how can the church’s belief of Mary having been sinless be reconciled with the bible’s ‘‘all have sinned’’?
Early Church fathers differed on their acceptance of the Immaculate Conception. e.g. Tertullian and Origen weren’t in favor of it; I don’t think Augustine taught it (but one of his adversaries, Pelagius, did). John of Damascus was strongly in favor of it.

Mary needed redemption just like all humans. In her special case, though, God acted differently, accomplishing this in a “preventive” sort of way (at least that’s how I think of it).
 
Adding to diggerdomer’s good response I will address the last questions about “for all have sinned”. If that were as all inclusive and many want to claim it to be, then let’s examine who that would include. first, it would have to include children, even babies. Next, in addition to the Blessed Virgin Mary, it would also have to include Christ Himself.

Since we know that the Bible also states that Christ was sinless, and logic tells us that the “all” must also exclude children, we can see that it is not as all-encompassing as some may claim.

Here is another important point about Mary being conceived without the “stain” of original sin. Recall in Exodus when Moses went up to see God on Mt. Sinai? Because Moses was a sinner, he could not look directly upon the face of the Lord. Mary was to have much greater contact with the Lord than Moses. Not only in carrying the Lord until His birth and raising Him, but in addition, we must remember that it was the Holy Spirit who overshadowed her at Christ’s conception. In addition, through a special grace, The Blessed Virgin Mary’s virginity remained intact even during the birth of Christ.

If Mary had not, by a singular grace of God, been delivered from sin at the time of her conception, she would not have been pure enough to perform her critical role in salvation history.
 
Adding to diggerdomer’s good response I will address the last questions about “for all have sinned”. If that were as all inclusive and many want to claim it to be, then let’s examine who that would include. first, it would have to include children, even babies. Next, in addition to the Blessed Virgin Mary, it would also have to include Christ Himself.

Since we know that the Bible also states that Christ was sinless, and logic tells us that the “all” must also exclude children, we can see that it is not as all-encompassing as some may claim.

Here is another important point about Mary being conceived without the “stain” of original sin. Recall in Exodus when Moses went up to see God on Mt. Sinai? Because Moses was a sinner, he could not look directly upon the face of the Lord. Mary was to have much greater contact with the Lord than Moses. Not only in carrying the Lord until His birth and raising Him, but in addition, we must remember that it was the Holy Spirit who overshadowed her at Christ’s conception. In addition, through a special grace, The Blessed Virgin Mary’s virginity remained intact even during the birth of Christ.

If Mary had not, by a singular grace of God, been delivered from sin at the time of her conception, she would not have been pure enough to perform her critical role in salvation history.
Thanks ever so much friends…your wise words have helped greatly.

I especially like the reference to Moses…I’ve never heard it put quite like that, but like most Catholic doctrines I have struggled with, once it is put in its proper context I discover it makes perfect sense. God bless you!
 
Here are some quotes from the early Church listed on ScriptureCatholic.com:
This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one." Origen, Homily 1(A.D. 244).
“Let woman praise Her, the pure Mary.” Ephraim, Hymns on the Nativity, 15:23 (A.D. 370).
“Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother.” Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370).
“O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides.” Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin, 71:216 (ante AD 373).
“Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin.” Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388).
“We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin.” Augustine, Nature and Grace,4 2[36] (A.D.415).
“As he formed her without my stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain.” Proclus of Constantinople, Homily 1 (ante A.D. 446).
“A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns.” Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily VI:11(ante A.D. 446).
“The angel took not the Virgin from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged in the womb, when she was made.” Peter Chrysologus, Sermon 140 (A.D. 449).
“[T]he very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary, if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary.” Jacob of Sarug (ante A.D. 521).
“She is born like the cherubim, she who is of a pure, immaculate clay.” Theotokos of Livias, Panegyric for the feast of the Assumption, 5:6 (ante A.D. 650).
“Today humanity, in all the radiance of her immaculate nobility, receives its ancient beauty. The shame of sin had darkened the splendour and attraction of human nature; but when the Mother of the Fair One par excellence is born, this nature regains in her person its ancient privileges and is fashioned according to a perfect model truly worthy of God… The reform of our nature begins today and the aged world, subjected to a wholly divine transformation, receives the first fruits of the second creation.” Andrew of Crete, Sermon I, On the Birth of Mary (A.D. 733).
“[T]ruly elect, and superior to all, not by the altitude of lofty structures, but as excelling all in the greatness and purity of sublime and divine virtues, and having no affinity with sin whatever.” Germanus of Constantinople, Marracci in S. Germani Mariali (ante A.D. 733).
“O most blessed loins of Joachim from which came forth a spotless seed! O glorious womb of Anne in which a most holy offspring grew.” John of Damascus, Homily I (ante A.D. 749).
 
Like a lot of protestants willing to consider converting, I have struggled a little with some Catholic teaching on Mary…particularly with regards to her Immaculate Conception.

I know about the thought of her being the new ark of the covenant etc, but how can one know this was the belief of the apostles? I understand many believe Gabriel’s greeting ‘‘full of grace’’ refers to it, but that aside, can anyone point me in the direction of the early church fathers and so on…what did they believe?
Something to consider: The Catholic Church believes Mary was without sin. The Orthodox Church believes Mary was without sin. Until the Protestant Reformation that pretty much covered the field. Did they all get it wrong? And if so, where is the historical evidence that the entire Christian world adopted a heresy. Surely somebody would have noted that fact.
And how can the church’s belief of Mary having been sinless be reconciled with the bible’s ‘‘all have sinned’’?
Well, Jesus didn’t sin. And neither have any of the countless millions who died while young children.

Beyond that, do you believe that God created us before the fall so that it would be impossible for us not to sin? After all, he created the angels and they didn’t all sin, though some did. So why is it so hard to believe that a human being in the pre-Fall state (as Mary was) could avoid sin? That is the same as saying that God either could not or did not originally create human beings as capable of avoiding sin, and that is a bizarre proposition, to put it mildly.
 
Something to consider: The Catholic Church believes Mary was without sin. The Orthodox Church believes Mary was without sin. Until the Protestant Reformation that pretty much covered the field. Did they all get it wrong? And if so, where is the historical evidence that the entire Christian world adopted a heresy. Surely somebody would have noted that fact.

Well, Jesus didn’t sin. And neither have any of the countless millions who died while young children.

Beyond that, do you believe that God created us before the fall so that it would be impossible for us not to sin? After all, he created the angels and they didn’t all sin, though some did. So why is it so hard to believe that a human being in the pre-Fall state (as Mary was) could avoid sin? That is the same as saying that God either could not or did not originally create human beings as capable of avoiding sin, and that is a bizarre proposition, to put it mildly.
Thanks VociMike. More great points for me to consider…as a keen history buff I am continually amazed at the consistency of Catholic beliefs on all matters, and indeed it would seem to serve as a great pointer to the church’s handle on the whole truth.

Quite the opposite from the rather changeable beliefs and characteristics of the protestant church I was brought up in, I might add.
 
Thanks ever so much friends…your wise words have helped greatly.

I especially like the reference to Moses…I’ve never heard it put quite like that, but like most Catholic doctrines I have struggled with, once it is put in its proper context I discover it makes perfect sense. God bless you!
I do not really think my words are terribly wise, but thank you. It is nice to see sincere questions. For me, I am a convert, I also had difficulty with this teaching. For me, it was reading Exodus and the story of Moses that really convinced me of the Immaculate conception. Moses, faithful and rightous as he was, was not pure enough to look on the face of God. What it more, for simply being in the presence of God, he shone so brightly with reflected supernatural light that he had to veil his face or he would have blinded those near him. I realized this was all due to the fact that he was a sinner. his sin, in a way, allowed the supernatural grace “leak out” which is why he shone. What is more, this supernatural light is actually dangerous to sinners as it can purify like a fire, which has the unfortunate side-effect of killing sinners.

The Blessed Virgin Mary being sinless was able to contain this supernatural light. It did not “leak out” because sin had not “punched holes” in her soul. Instead, this supernatural grace remained in her her entire life and helped to guide her and keep her close to God at all times. This way, while the Blessed Virgin Mary remained sinless through her life, it never affected her free will.

At least this is how I think of it. Call me crazy, but that explanation, imperfect as it is, works for me. However, if someone better educated or informed identifies problems with this perspective, I would welcome well-meaning correction.
 
Thanks VociMike. More great points for me to consider…as a keen history buff I am continually amazed at the consistency of Catholic beliefs on all matters, and indeed it would seem to serve as a great pointer to the church’s handle on the whole truth.

Quite the opposite from the rather changeable beliefs and characteristics of the protestant church I was brought up in, I might add.
Consistency is an important aspect to consider. One must be careful, when looking at the Church to keep a number of things in mind, especially when looking at the Church through history.

Be careful to separate doctrine and dogma from discipline and canon (Church) law. Doctrine and dogma do not change (but can be better understood and explained), but discipline and canon law can. Example: Male only priesthood is a doctrine and cannot change. Priestly celibacy is a discipline which can (and has) changed over time. An example of a doctrine (dogma? I get the two confused.) where our understanding has improved over the centuries is the Immaculate Conception. As we saw in Prayer_Warrior’s great post, this has been taught since the very early days of the Church, even before the Bible was codified.

Historically, the Church has not declared something as a doctrine or dogma until or unless there has been some kind of controversy over the matter. An example of this is the Divinity of Christ. This was not declared a doctrine until the Council of Nicea in the 4th century because there was great debate in the Church because of the teachings of a priest, Arias, who taught that Christ was not divine. Likewise, the books of the Old Testament were simply assumed to be the Jewish Greek Septuagint. However, when the Protestant Revolt occurred and many Protestants argued that Old Testament books not originally written in Hebrew should not be included, the Council of Trent codified the books of the Old Testament.

Finally, be careful to separate the Church from individuals in the Church. The Church is the pure and undefiled Bride of Christ. But the Church is composed of sinful men and women who do not always behave or act in a manner consistent which what the Church teaches and the Godly and noble ideals which she unblinkingly advocates.

As you learn more and more about what authentic Catholic teachings are, you will find an spectacular inter-connectedness with every authentic teaching and moral stance. In short, you do not check your brains at the door of the Church.
 
Thanks VociMike. More great points for me to consider…as a keen history buff I am continually amazed at the consistency of Catholic beliefs on all matters, and indeed it would seem to serve as a great pointer to the church’s handle on the whole truth.

Quite the opposite from the rather changeable beliefs and characteristics of the protestant church I was brought up in, I might add.
When I came back to the Church after years of wandering in my own desert, one thing that struck me immediately was how consistent, how intricately connected and mutually supporting (often in surprising ways), and indeed how beautiful, all aspects of Catholicism were. It hit me forcefully that this could not be a construct of human minds, because it was too well designed (for lack of a better word).

Interestingly, I am struck by that same sense of how consistent, how intricately connected and mutually supporting (often in surprising ways), and indeed how beautiful, all aspects of nature are. I think I see a pattern here. Could the natural world and the Catholic faith have the same Creator? 🙂
 
Hi Palma Exsisto, welcome to Catholic Answers, I’m rather new here myself. In my short time on these forums, it seems like the Immaculate Conception is one of the most popular topics to discuss. In the course of discussion on another thread with an Evangelical, mainly about the development of doctrine (which Catholics regard as an ever-deepening understanding or unpacking of the original deposit of faith by the Church, not “new” revelation), I wrote a post about the Immaculate Conception. I’ll cut and paste it here, for your consideration…

I’d like to return to the topic of Mary’s Immaculate Conception, if you’re still interested. You still seem to think that the RC Church dangerously relies on Church Father (CF) outliers in holding to this doctrine (though I have to disagree with the characterization of Augustine as an outlier or “penumbra”). Using the sentence token vs proposition framework, I’d like to try to make the case (albeit, an abridged one) for the RC position that the Immaculate Conception is formally implicit in the deposit of faith.

First, there are a number of sentence tokens, in both Scripture and Tradition, that potentially bear on the Immaculate Conception:
  1. Mary was the “New Eve” (Apostolic Tradition)
  2. Mary was “all holy” (Apostolic Tradition)
  3. Mary was “full of grace” (Lk. 1:28)
  4. Enmity between Satan and “the woman,” i.e., Mary (Gn. 3:15; Jn. 19:26-27; Rev. 12)
  5. Mary would be “pierced by a sword” (Lk. 2:35)
  6. Mary rejoiced in “God her savior” (Lk. 1:46)
  7. “All have sinned” (Rom. 3:23)
  8. Death came to “all” through Adam, “inasmuch as all sinned” (Rom. 5:12)
Second, some CFs wrote, as propositional matter, that Mary sinned at least once (though I’ve never seen a CF who said that Mary was a common sinner like everyone else):
  1. Origen attributed the sin of doubt to Mary. Most of the Eastern fathers who denied Mary’s sinlessness are indebted to Origen, and often follow him uncritically in this opinion.
  2. St. Basil appears to have followed Origen in this opinion.
  3. Ditto for St. Gregory of Nyssa.
  4. Ditto for St. Cyril of Alexandria.
  5. St. John Chrysostom, independently of the aforementioned four CFs, interprets the scene at the wedding feast of Cana as an instance where Jesus rebukes his mother for the sin of vainglory.
On the other hand, a number of CFs maintained (or at least intimated) the proposition that Mary was sinless. To name a few:
  1. St. Hippolytus referred to Mary as the tabernacle exempt from defilement and corruption (Ontt. In illud, Dominus pascit me), and called her “the spotless and God-bearing Mary” (Discourse on the End of the World [217 AD]).
  2. St. Ephraim sang: “You alone and your Mother are more beautiful than any others; for there is no blemish in you, nor any stains upon your Mother. Who of my children can compare in beauty to these?” (The Nisibene Hymns [ca. 361 AD]) and further described Mary as “most holy, all-pure, all-immaculate, all-stainless, all-undefiled, all-incorrupt, all-inviolate spotless robe of Him Who clothes Himself with light as with a garment . . . flower unfading, purple woven by God, alone most immaculate” (Precationes ad Deiparam).
  3. St. Athanasius: “O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, o dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all. O [Ark of the New] Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides. Should I compare you to the fertile earth and its fruits? You surpass them . . . If I say that heaven is exalted, yet it does not equal you” (quoted in L. Gambero, Mary and the Fathers of the Church [1999] [an excellent book!!]).
  4. St. Ambrose: “Come, then, and search out Your sheep, not through Your servants or hired men, but do it Yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh, which is fallen in Adam. Lift me up not from Sara but from Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free from every stain of sin” (Commentary on Psalm 118 [inter 387-388 AD]).
  5. St. Augustine: “We must except the holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honor to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin” (On Nature and Grace 42 [415 AD]).
continued…
 
Clearly, there was not a unanimous opinion among the CFs on Mary’s sinlessness. But as a matter of logic and common sense, one side must be right and the other wrong, despite the lack of unanimity. Either she was sinless (as maintained by some CFs) or she wasn’t (as suggested by others). Neither side can point to a “consensus view” to decide the issue (and, unsurprisingly, many CFs didn’t address the question one way or the other at all). Do you see my point here? Deniers of Mary’s sinlessness, relying on Tradition, have no unanimity to support their position. Mary’s “sinfulness” is not a unanimous opinion of the CFs (far from it), nor does the Bible contain a verse explicitly stating that “Mary sinned.” In other words, the notion that Mary sinned also fails a wooden application of St. Vincent’s famous maxim (“quod ubique, quod semper, quod ab omnibus”), if that maxim is taken too literally and is not balanced with his explicit acknowledgement that doctrine does in fact develop through the Church’s ever-deepening understanding of divine revelation (Notebooks 54 "But perhaps someone is saying: ‘Will there, then, be no progress of religion in the Church of Christ?’ Certainly there is, and the greatest. For who is there so envious toward men and so exceedingly hateful toward God, that he would try to prohibit progress? But it is truly progress and not a change of faith. What is meant by progress is that something is brought to an advancement within itself; by change, something is transformed from one thing into another. It is necessary, therefore, that understanding, knowledge, and wisdom grow and advance strongly and mightily as much in individuals as in the group, as much in one man as in the whole Church, and this gradually according to age and the times; and this must take place precisely within its own kind, that is, in the same teaching, in the same meaning, and in the same opinion”]). People who rely on conflicts between CFs on a given point employ a double standard in their reasoning (Protestant apologists, in particular, seem to do this, even using this “conflict methodology” to dismiss such a core belief of the CFs as the Real Presence in the Eucharist – a conclusion both RCs and EOs would agree is absolutely ludicrous).

Yet, over the centuries, culminating in Duns Scotus’ “anticipatory redemption” breakthrough realization in the Middle Ages (meaning that someone can be redeemed if, by a special act of God, that person is preserved from sinning altogether), the Church came to understand that Mary was sinless and that she was immaculately conceived (i.e., preserved from the stain of Original Sin in the first instance of her conception, meaning that God “saved” her through the Christ’s redemption in an anticipatory manner). Ultimately, the Church infallibly declared the Immaculate Conception to be de fide in 1854. In doing so, the Church decided, once and for all, which CFs were right (e.g., Ephraim, Augustine) and which were wrong (e.g., Origen, Chrysostom). Indeed, there is much in both Scripture and Tradition to support the Church’s realization; I can only briefly touch on three such items here:
  1. The idea that Mary was the “New Eve” is undoubtedly an Apostolic Tradition, the analogy having been made by such early CFs as St. Justin Martyr and St. Irenaeus (In fact, the Gospel of John itself hints that Mary was the New Eve by identifying Mary with “the woman” in Gen. 3:15 – see Jn. 2:5-11; Jn. 19:26-27; see also Rev. 12, suggesting that the Apostle John himself was most likely the source of this Apostolic Tradition). The title “New Eve” calls attention to Mary’s cooperation in our redemption. Now, this role as Second Eve in the history of our redemption would seem to fit awkwardly with the hypothesis that Mary was a sinner. How could she fulfill her lofty office of leading the opposition to the devil if she had been herself at one time a slave of the devil, a sinner? Furthermore, we know that the Second Adam, Jesus, was free from sin. By analogical extension, therefore, it is not unreasonable to think of Mary as enjoying this privilege as well. The Genesis text speaks of a mutual enmity between the devil and the Second Eve, an enmity which is shared by Christ, the “seed.” Obviously in the case of Christ the enmity is perfect, which it would not be if he had ever sinned. Couldn’t this same reasoning be applied to Mary? Finally, it would be unfitting if Second Eve, who as the antitype of the First Eve surpasses her in excellence, should herself have an origin that was less perfect than the First Eve. But Eve, from the first moment of her existence, was free from Original Sin, and so it seems reasonable to infer that Mary also would enjoy this privilege. Indeed, the Old Testament “types” are always surpassed by their New Testament fulfillments, meaning that while Eve later fell into sin, Mary didn’t.
continued…
 
  1. In accordance with Luke 1:28, where the Archangel Gabriel hails Mary as “full of grace,” Mary’s unparalleled level of sanctity, achieved by grace, is a constant theme in the writings of the CFs. Origen himself seemed to attribute a special sanctity to Mary in saying that even she must have had at least some fault for which Christ had atoned (as I will explain shortly, Origen’s view that Mary sinned was predicated purely on an incorrect exegesis of Scripture, the same error made by Protestants today who deny Mary’s sinlessness). Her title as the Panagia – the “all-holy one” – was widely accepted by the Eastern Church and was apparently acknowledged even by Origen. In a vision, St. Gregory the Wonderworker in the third century sees the Apostle John say to Mary that he wants to please her in all things because she is the one closest to his heart. Apparently, some Christians at this time were giving Mary a status even above the Beloved Disciple, John. The ancient Greek prayer, Sub tuum praesidium, calls Mary the one who is “alone pure and blessed.” St. Athanasius holds out Mary as a worthy example of holiness that Christians should consciously imitate, and says that Mary is greater than the cherubim and seraphim. St. Ephraim and St. Ambrose explicitly wrote that she was sinless. St. Epiphanius stated that Mary “remained stainless” and “never did any wrong as far as fleshly actions are concerned” (Medicine Chest Against All Heresies [377 AD]). St. Cyril of Jerusalem held Mary out as an example of chastity worthy of imitation. St. Gregory Nazianzen stated that Mary underwent a special purification by grace in preparation for her role in the Incarnation, a statement that, at least according to positive substance, anticipates the Immaculate Conception. St. Jerome repeatedly calls Mary “holy,” even going so far as to say she was so pure she merited the privilege of becoming the Mother of God. St. Augustine taught the same thing. St. Cyril of Alexandria remarked that Mary was a “venerable treasure of the whole world.” What is striking about all of this is that even those CFs who denied that Mary was sinless still give evidence of a Tradition exalting her for her unparalleled sanctity. She is a model of imitation, an exemplar of virtue, the all-holy one, stainless, pure, and greater than angels. These attributions are precisely what we would expect to find if the doctrine of Mary’s sinlessness had been formally-implicitly revealed by the Apostles. We might say that while the notion of her unparalleled sanctity was realized, its import had not yet been fully grasped. Recall in this connection the words of St. Vincent: “Let posterity welcome . . . what antiquity venerated without understanding” (Notebooks 53).
Furthermore, it is simply incorrect to suggest that the Latin Vulgate’s translation of Lk. 1:28 as “full of grace” was the historical cause of the medieval view that Mary was the distributor (mediatrix) of grace, a claim made by Protestant scholars like Alister McGrath. The idea that Mary mediated grace to the Christian faithful is ancient. Eastern Christians prayed to her at least in the 4th century and very possibly the 3rd, if we are to accept the 3rd century dating of the (Greek, not Latin) prayer, Sub tuum praesidium. Moreover, the theological articulation of the view that Mary was mediatrix of grace arose in the East (again, not the Latin West) after the Council of Ephesus in 431 AD. It is not clear who first applied the term “mediatrix” to Mary, but it is clear that it originated in the East; proposals include Ephraim, Romanos the Singer, Basile of Seleucia, Andrew of Crete or Germanus of Constantinople. Eventually, this Eastern theology made its way to the West, being popularized by men like Peter Damien and Bernard of Clairvaux. To suggest, then, that this view of Mary arose on the basis of the Latin Vulgate, which was not even used by the Eastern CFs, is positively false. It is a myth perpetuated by Protestant scholars with very little, if any, historical basis. The Vulgate had very little if anything to do with the “elevation” of Mary in the West.

continued…
 
  1. There is a parallel between Mary and the Church (and “the woman” in Genesis 3/Revelation 12 can be viewed as an image of both Mary and the Church; there is no need to introduce a false dichotomy in those passages, as if “the woman” could refer only to one to the exclusion of the other). For the CFs, the Church was constantly called a “mother” and “virgin” bride of Christ. It did not take long before this paradoxical state of virginal motherhood was linked to mariology, since Mary was another famous Virgin and Mother. St. Clement of Alexandria drew a parallel between the Virgin Mary and the Church, as if the two are associated closely in his mind (Paed. 1:6). Later, St. Ephraim would write: “We call the Church by the name of Mary, for she deserves a double name” (Gambero, Mary and the Fathers of the Church pg. 115). St. Epiphanius also taught that Mary was a symbol of the Church. St. Gregory Nazianzen said that Mary was the temple of Christ, a statement that closely associates her with the Church (id. at 163). St. Ambrose went so far as to call Mary the type and image of the Church (id. at 198). It does seem that the Mary-Church parallel can be justified by typology alone, since Mary, as the Second Eve, is the “mother of all living” (Gen 3:20), and the CFs all teach that the Church is also our mother. Moreover, Mary contained the body of Christ within her womb, and the Church is the body of Christ – so in some sense we may say she is the mother of all Christians (Rev 12:17); she has given birth to us all in giving birth to Christ, just as the Church gives birth to us all. Why is this important? If in fact Mary is the image of the Church, then the way is paved for a typological argument in favor of her sinlessness. For the Church is called “holy” in all of the ancient creeds – “I believe in one, holy, Catholic and apostolic Church.” St. Paul himself had said that Christ will “present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish” (Eph. 5:27). If Mary is, in the plan of God, the woman chosen to be the living and personal image of the Church, then she also might be expected to be “holy” and “without blemish” – which is precisely what the CFs do say of her. One therefore can justify the doctrine of Mary’s sinlessness on the basis of the pattern and structure of Biblical ecclesiology as it applied to Mary.
So, why then did some of the CFs hold that Mary had in fact sinned? (the two specific sins I’ve seen mentioned are the sins of doubt and vainglory.) Let’s start with Origen. Initially, it’s important to note that although Origen sometimes explicitly bases doctrines on an oral Apostolic Tradition (he does so with infant baptism), he does not do so with respect to his view that Mary committed sin. Rather, Origen appears to have based his view on two things. First, it was an exegetical inference he made, especially from Luke 2:34-35, where it was prophesied that Mary would be “pierced by a sword.” For Origen, these words meant that Mary would doubt her son, and thus commit sin. While this reading is perhaps plausible, it is by no means the only interpretation (and is certainly not the consensus interpretation among the CFs). Second, as a theological point, Origen reasoned that Mary must have sinned because Jesus died for all humans, and Mary was a human, presupposing that a human could be redeemed only if he or she had in fact sinned. Duns Scotus adequately answered this charge in realizing that Mary could have been anticipatorily redeemed, preserving Christ’s universal redemption. We may therefore conclude that Origen erred in supposing that someone can be redeemed only if that person sinned. Origen cannot be faulted for not knowing about anticipatory redemption – how could he have foreseen a development that took hundreds of years to unfold? But once the nature of anticipatory redemption is understood, we immediately see the unsoundness of Origen’s argument against Marian sinlessness. If someone opposes Mary’s freedom from sin, then, they must do so on grounds other than those supplied by Origen. This conclusion is important because St. Basil, St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Cyril of Alexandria explicitly based their doctrine on Origen. Thus, in one swoop, most of the patristic witnesses against Mary’s sinlessness are called into serious question.

Furthermore, while most CFs after Origen appealed to his argument, they did offer a few of their own. For instance, some of them appealed especially to a very low estimation of women to ground their assertion that Mary committed sin. CFs falling into this category would include St. Basil, St. John Chrysostom and possibly St. Cyril of Alexandria. In other words, these CFs attributed imperfections to Mary for no other reason than that she was a woman who, as such, participated in a “weak” nature that is incapable of moral perfection. It goes without saying that this view is out of harmony with modern sensibilities and Church teaching (and it should be noted that not all the CFs shared this view on women). Since I always like to bring up St. Thomas Aquinas, I’d just point out that he writes that Chrysostom “goes too far” when he said that Mary succumbed to human frailty in seeking vainglory; and although Aquinas did not formally endorse the Immaculate Conception as it was later defined by the Church in 1854 (he lived 600 years earlier and died before Duns Scotus), he did state that “she was sanctified in the womb” (Summa Theologica III, Q.27, Art. 1) and affirmed that she was “preserved from all actual sin” during her life (id. III, Q. 27, Art. 4).

continued…
 
The only other patristic arguments against Mary’s sinlessness are based on pure Scriptural exegesis. I’ll just address a couple of their misinterpretations of the Bible. First, we can easily dismiss the argument from Luke 1:46, where Mary calls God her “savior.” In calling God her savior (which He was), Mary in no way admits that she was a sinner. Second, although Paul writes that “all have sinned” (Rom. 3:23), he cannot literally mean every single person because Jesus, infants and the severely handicapped cannot sin. If there are exceptions to the rule, nothing prevents Mary from being such an exception.

At bottom, what’s clear is that the CFs who taught that Mary sinned did not ground this view on Apostolic Tradition. Rather, it was based on (1) the misplaced theological assumption that only sinners are capable of being redeemed; (2) a narrow view of the nature of women; and (3) private Scriptural exegesis.

Hope that’s helpful.
 
I know about the thought of her being the new ark of the covenant etc, but how can one know this was the belief of the apostles?
One way is to compare how closely the language Luke used to describe Mary with the way the book of Samuel describes the Ark. See this chart here.

Also, the Church was built on the foundation of the Apostles. Foundations are to be built upon. The Church thus matures in Her understanding of God’s revelation, the totality of which is Jesus Christ. The Apostles certainly believed the Church had the capacity to interpret revelation. Paul gave Timothy a clue as to how to discover what is true.*2 Timothy 1:13 What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound teaching, with faith and love in Christ Jesus.*Some translations have the “form” of sound teaching. Paul taught Timothy how to recognize what was sound teaching by the example of how he looked at things. The Apostles instilled to the Church a way of understanding revelation. And so, the Church, following the way of the Apostles, and their special charism of guidance by the Holy Spirit, better and better understood over time the significance of the Scripture paralleling Mary and the Ark so strongly.
:o
 
I personally also have a problem with the teaching on Mary. I think she’s important to the Catholic faith as she is the only woman role model but she’s currently not being portrayed correctly in every aspect. But you’re free to believe in the Immaculate Conception if you wish. Catholic women are asked to imitate her purity ie. through abstinence before marriage (although sex inside marriage is perfectly good for the purposes of having children) although we also have nuns who marry the Lord. Catholic married women are also asked to imitate her acceptance to have children and this is why we have teaching on birth control and abortion. She’s a mother of everybody.
 
I personally also have a problem with the teaching on Mary. I think she’s important to the Catholic faith as she is the only woman role model but she’s currently not being portrayed correctly in every aspect. But you’re free to believe in the Immaculate Conception if you wish. Catholic women are asked to imitate her purity ie. through abstinence before marriage (although sex inside marriage is perfectly good for the purposes of having children) although we also have nuns who marry the Lord. Catholic married women are also asked to imitate her acceptance to have children and this is why we have teaching on birth control and abortion. She’s a mother of everybody.
There are a number of troubling statements in this post. Particularly the comment that sex in marriage is good only for the purpose of procreation. That is utterly wrong and absolutely opposed to Catholic teachings. the marital act is also for the purpose of marital unity. to claim otherwise is to contradict the Church.

Also, to be Catholic, one must accept all that the Churches teaches. The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is a declared doctrine, not a suggestion, not something that can believed or not. Catholics are required to accept this belief in order to be authentically Catholic, just like they must accept the divinity of Christ.

Next, Mary is by far not the only female role model for the Church, either in the Bible or Church history. I guess this member never heard about (from the Bible) Sarah, Ruth, Deborah, Ester, Judith, Miriam, Hagar, Mary Magdalene, Martha, (saints) St. Lucy, St. Veronica, St. Brigidet (one from Ireland, another from Sweden), St. Therese of Avila, St. Catherine of Sienna, St.Therese of Liseaux, and on and on and on.

In the past, I have asked this member to remove “Catholic” from her declared religion in her profile because she frequently posts in contradiction to the Catholic faith and teachings. Few of her posts are consistent with authentic Catholic teachings.
 
Here is another important point about Mary being conceived without the “stain” of original sin. Recall in Exodus when Moses went up to see God on Mt. Sinai? Because Moses was a sinner, he could not look directly upon the face of the Lord. Mary was to have much greater contact with the Lord than Moses.
Which Scripture tells this story? Sometimes I’m bad at thinking of it in my head. 😊
 
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