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JGD
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Do you know of any references anywhere that say Mary moved to Capernaum? And especially in any writings of the early Church fathers.
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hope
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There is no evidence that she didn’t. The evidence I believe is more in favor that she went with Jesus wherever he went. She is there at the beginning of His ministry. She is there during and she is there at crucifixion. The last time she is mentioned is at Pentecost. This is fitting as she always points to her son. IT is obvious, I think that she was with other relatives. As she mentioned, traveling in their company. But would that mean that she would not have traveled with her son? I cannot imagine that she would not stay with her son.
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JGD
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As I pondered this topic last night and this morning, the Scripture about Jesus being “lost” in the temple came to mind. Jesus didn’t get lost, He chose to stay behind - as His response to Mary indicates. Luke 2:49 And he said to them: How is it that you sought me? did you not know, that I must be about the things that are my Father’s?
Jesus chose, at 12 yrs of age, to be separated from Mary and Joseph for 3 days because of the work He needed to do for the Father.
Jesus chose to be separated again from Mary, this time for 3 years as He began His public ministry, preaching and doing what the Father tells Him to do. (eg. John 8:28) After spending 30 years quietly at home with Mary, now He leaves, spending most of His time traveling and preaching the Kingdom of God - with crowds coming when they would hear He was back/home in Capernaum. (Mark 2:1-2 & 3:19-20)
Since I think Mary remained in their home in Nazareth, I think Jesus relished those times when, quietly, He could go there and the two of them could have time together, alone — something that would not happen if Mary was living with living with Jesus in the house of one of His apostles or relatives.
Jesus chose, one more time, to be separated from Mary when He ascended into heaven.
Thirty years they spent together. What close and deep conversations must they have shared. How many things/understandings Jesus no doubt revealed to Mary. All one has to do is read the revelations some of the saints have been given, some things they’re unable to share because there isn’t language to express it. Mary very probably received even more. Mary was a ponderer. What a close bond of their spirits must have been formed. There were separations of the bodies, but not of their souls. Oh, what a reunion that must have been when Our Lord assumed Mary, body and soul, into heaven for all eternity!
Jesus chose, at 12 yrs of age, to be separated from Mary and Joseph for 3 days because of the work He needed to do for the Father.
Jesus chose to be separated again from Mary, this time for 3 years as He began His public ministry, preaching and doing what the Father tells Him to do. (eg. John 8:28) After spending 30 years quietly at home with Mary, now He leaves, spending most of His time traveling and preaching the Kingdom of God - with crowds coming when they would hear He was back/home in Capernaum. (Mark 2:1-2 & 3:19-20)
Since I think Mary remained in their home in Nazareth, I think Jesus relished those times when, quietly, He could go there and the two of them could have time together, alone — something that would not happen if Mary was living with living with Jesus in the house of one of His apostles or relatives.
Jesus chose, one more time, to be separated from Mary when He ascended into heaven.
Thirty years they spent together. What close and deep conversations must they have shared. How many things/understandings Jesus no doubt revealed to Mary. All one has to do is read the revelations some of the saints have been given, some things they’re unable to share because there isn’t language to express it. Mary very probably received even more. Mary was a ponderer. What a close bond of their spirits must have been formed. There were separations of the bodies, but not of their souls. Oh, what a reunion that must have been when Our Lord assumed Mary, body and soul, into heaven for all eternity!
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Dan_Defender
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No. Jesus was her only son, so she would have been reduced to begging if she had been left to fend for herself. This is first century Palestine we are talking about. When Jesus rebuked the Pharisees about the wrong exception of not honoring your father and mother (supporting them) by giving offering to the Temple, they could have said: but you left your own mother behind, if he had done so.
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JGD
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Why do you think every widow who didn’t live in the same house as her son, would be reduced to begging?
Jesus would naturally make sure there was sufficient provision for her needs. Mary had relatives in Nazareth; we don’t know if she had any in Capernaum. As I think I mentioned in an earlier post, Mary owned her home - may well have had a garden, a goat, chickens, etc. She might even have had ways to earn some income. I would guess there were open markets where she could have sold garden/food products, items she made,…
It’s not like Jesus continued to practice His trade of carpentry full time (if at all). He was gone most of the time traveling. Whether Mary lived in Nazareth or Capernaum would make no difference in the amount of monetary support He could provide for her.
Jesus preached throughout Galilee and Judea. It’s 65 miles from Capernaum to Jerusalem but only 20 miles to Nazareth - not that far in a culture where walking was a normal way to travel. There could have been many times He’d have stopped in to see His mother.
Jesus would naturally make sure there was sufficient provision for her needs. Mary had relatives in Nazareth; we don’t know if she had any in Capernaum. As I think I mentioned in an earlier post, Mary owned her home - may well have had a garden, a goat, chickens, etc. She might even have had ways to earn some income. I would guess there were open markets where she could have sold garden/food products, items she made,…
It’s not like Jesus continued to practice His trade of carpentry full time (if at all). He was gone most of the time traveling. Whether Mary lived in Nazareth or Capernaum would make no difference in the amount of monetary support He could provide for her.
Jesus preached throughout Galilee and Judea. It’s 65 miles from Capernaum to Jerusalem but only 20 miles to Nazareth - not that far in a culture where walking was a normal way to travel. There could have been many times He’d have stopped in to see His mother.
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JGD
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??Not living with His mother does not mean Jesus didn’t provide sufficient monetary support for her.
Jesus would never do what He accuses the Pharisees of doing in Mark 7:9-13
Since Jesus was chastising the Pharisees, I’m presuming at least some of them had parents suffering from poverty while they had more money than they needed - enough to provide the necessary support for their parents. Instead, in order to keep the funds, they used a man made tradition as an excuse to disobey a God given command - one of the 10 Commands God Himself carved in stone. (Ex. 31:18; Deut. 9:10)
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BenjaminJ
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Read The Worlds first love by Fulton Sheen
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JGD
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I’m not trying to “prove” anything. Neither of us has concrete evidence.JGD:
Interesting, I think of the old saying the lack of evidence is not proof of evidence.
However, one thing we do know, the determining factor for Mary’s choice would not have been her personal preferences, but what Jesus preferred - where He preferred/wanted her to live for the next 2 1/2 to 3 years.
In heaven, God willing, we’ll all find out.
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Ignatius
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She was important enough that “in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.”
If God thought she was that important, why does your friend doubt?
If God thought she was that important, why does your friend doubt?
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hope
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Your statement was that the lack of Scripture has more weight? The lack of Scripture is just that no information.
After pondering this for awhile, what occurred to me was that when Jesus remained behind Mary went looking for Him Did Mary remain in Nazareth? We have scripture that says she didn’t. After living with Jesus for thirty years, would she than just stay at home? When He did return to Nazareth, it was hardly peaceful they tried to kill Him.
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JGD
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Jesus was a juvenile, 12 years old, when they went looking for Him. They were responsible for His care - physical as well as other guidance.
I’m sure if your 12 year old went missing, you’d look for Him also.
But, if your 30 year old son told you he was starting a new job as a travelling salesman (or a missionary) - moving to a neighboring town where he would stay in the home of one of his co-workers when not on the road - would you feel like you had to move into that other person’s home also, and then follow your son as he travelled about (eg. Luke 8:1, 9:6, 13:22; Mt. 9:35; Mark 6:6, 56; 8:27)
I firmly believe that throughout her existence, Mary had/has a role to play in mankind’s redemption. What responsibilities were hers for the 3 years Jesus exercised His public ministry has not been revealed to us, but I’m sure Mary knew (either directly by Jesus, or through the Holy Spirit) what God desired her to be doing and that is what she would have done. Regardless of where she made her home during those 3 years, we do know she was sometimes present where Jesus was preaching - for she was outside the house in Capernaum, and also in Jerusalem at the time of the crucifixion.
Where the particular town she dwelt in is not something critical to our faith. If it’s important and an aid in your meditations and prayer, then continue to think of Mary living in Capernaum. What’s important is prayer.
This will probably be my final post on this thread. I’ve been notified more than once that I’ve posted too often and there should be more people involved for me to continue posting.
God bless you Hope.
I’m sure if your 12 year old went missing, you’d look for Him also.
But, if your 30 year old son told you he was starting a new job as a travelling salesman (or a missionary) - moving to a neighboring town where he would stay in the home of one of his co-workers when not on the road - would you feel like you had to move into that other person’s home also, and then follow your son as he travelled about (eg. Luke 8:1, 9:6, 13:22; Mt. 9:35; Mark 6:6, 56; 8:27)
I firmly believe that throughout her existence, Mary had/has a role to play in mankind’s redemption. What responsibilities were hers for the 3 years Jesus exercised His public ministry has not been revealed to us, but I’m sure Mary knew (either directly by Jesus, or through the Holy Spirit) what God desired her to be doing and that is what she would have done. Regardless of where she made her home during those 3 years, we do know she was sometimes present where Jesus was preaching - for she was outside the house in Capernaum, and also in Jerusalem at the time of the crucifixion.
Where the particular town she dwelt in is not something critical to our faith. If it’s important and an aid in your meditations and prayer, then continue to think of Mary living in Capernaum. What’s important is prayer.
This will probably be my final post on this thread. I’ve been notified more than once that I’ve posted too often and there should be more people involved for me to continue posting.
God bless you Hope.
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Aulef
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God in person came to this world through her. She is the mother of God.
This alone should be enough to show her importance…
This alone should be enough to show her importance…
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hope
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There are two things which I don’t think you considered
To the second point, if you knew that Jesus was six miles away from you not follow Him. I can’t imagine Mary not wanting to be with her Son, her Lord. I don’t believe that you can really know either way from scripture but what little there is points to her being with Him
- The time that it occurred
- Mary would have known that Jesus was not ordinary. Elizabeth asked Mary “And why has this happened to me, that the mother of my Lord comes to me?” Mary knows Jesus is capable of performing miracle. Jesus’ first miracle was at her request.
To the second point, if you knew that Jesus was six miles away from you not follow Him. I can’t imagine Mary not wanting to be with her Son, her Lord. I don’t believe that you can really know either way from scripture but what little there is points to her being with Him
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JGD
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I’m not sure why you think Mary would not have lived on her own. Widows did sometimes live on their own, as we can gather from Scripture. See for example, 1 Timothy 5 , Mark 12:40, Acts 6:1. (Granted these widows were in need because they had no one to provide, whereas Jesus was still alive to see that Mary’s necessities were provided for. )
Because Mary was outside with relatives doesn’t mean she was living with those relatives - or that the relatives lived in Capernaum. We know Jesus had relatives in Nazareth. They could have travelled with Mary from Nazareth to Capernaum. To my knowledge, there are no passages that speak of relatives of Jesus who lived in Capernaum. If you know of Scripture passages saying He did have relatives there, please give them.
Not everybody in Nazareth tried to kill her son; it was those who were in the synagogue when Jesus was preaching. It was a flare up mob type of incident. Hopefully some of them later regretted their participation.
This is one question I can answer with certainty!
If she did not go with Him, it was because it was God’s will - what God (Father, Son/Jesus, Holy Spirit) desired - and somehow God made His will known to her - probably Jesus speaking directly with her.My personal reflection is that Mary’s role was probably prayer. She seems to have been a contemplative - a “ponderer”. Prayer is a powerful weapon. Also, I think her quiet home in Nazareth could have served as a “quiet retreat” for Jesus on occasion - where He could go and not be swamped by crowds as He was in Capernaum when people would learn He was home there.
Why would Jesus have had to give responsibility to John if Mary was already being taken care of by relatives?
I agree totally.
On this point I disagree. Scripture does note that there were women who followed and ministered to Jesus - but Mary, His Mother, is never mentioned among them. When she is present, it is usually specifically noted.
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TMC
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Not much is said is the Gospels about Mary’s relationship or interactions with Jesus during his ministry. One of the few passages to discuss it is hardly positive - Mark reports that Jesus’ family (with a strong implication that Mary is included in “family”) thought Jesus was out of his mind, and also that Mary and Jesus’ brothers tried to stop (or at least interrupt) his preaching on at least one occasion. Jesus responds by saying that Mary and his brothers are not his family - his followers are his family. That seems to strongly suggest that Mary did not accompany Jesus on his travels. (I’m not saying that it means Mary did not have a good relationship with Jesus, but it is an interesting passage for a number of reasons.)
The fact is that almost everything said on this thread about Mary and her relationship to her Son are merely speculation (sometimes informed speculation, but still speculation). There is nothing wrong with that, but we really don’t know much at all about Mary and her interactions with Jesus.
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JGD
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Mark 3:21-22 And when His family heard it, they went out to seize Him, for people were saying, “He is beside Himself. And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem said, “He is possessed by Be-el′zebul, and by the prince of demons he casts out the demons.”
The RSV translation clarifies/interprets who “they” refers to - people. As the verse that follows shows, scribes were among those making derisive remarks.
I recall reading a long time ago that there was a strong case that “they” did not refer to the family members (as a lot of translations read), but to what others/crowds were saying about Jesus. These accusations caused Jesus’ relatives to be concerned for Him.
If memory serves, it was one of the entries in the Catholic Biblical Quarterly, but it was years ago and I don’t recall the author.
He doesn’t say they are not His family, He just includes a lot of others as well - all those who "the will of my Father in heaven is my brother, and sister, and mother.” (cf. Mt. 12:50)
Mary is “doubly” His mother - by His birth and by always doing God’s will.
I know. I can’t imagine spending even a week living with Jesus; can you imagine 30 years!?! Won’t it be great to hopefully have Our Lord and Our Lady share some of it with us in heaven.
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TMC
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This is a poor translation. This is a better one Mark, CHAPTER 3 | USCCB
The translations that transform “they” to “people” do so to deflect the import of this passage, which is that Jesus’ family was concerned that He was “out of his mind.” (IMHO)
I don’t agree with this. Jesus asks who are His brothers and mother, and answers His own question by saying that His followers are. I read that as picking one over the other.
You get no argument from me on this!
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TMC
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Not sure if you are making a point or asking a question. My only point was that one of the few mentions of Mary during Jesus’ corporeal ministry seems to indicate she was not travelling with Him, and includes the statement that His family was concerned about His mental state. I don’t know any more than is in the text (and neither does anyone else). But the text indicates to me that Mary was not physically following Him - or she would have been with His followers. What His family heard is not given, but the natural implication is that they heard of His preaching and healing and were concerned.
If she heard something about His preaching that was not true (which I think you are implying), that reinforces that she must not have been with Him, or she would know first hand what He was preaching. If it was His actual preaching that alarmed her, that would also suggest she was not travelling with Him, or why does she (and the other family members) respond so strongly at this point?
So either way, it seems likely she was not with Him. (Which is only one of the many interesting things about this passage.)
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hope
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There is many women in Scripture who had means of their own. How they got it I don’t know. Some of these women supported Jesus. Again the culture is important. Families (which would include mother, father, sisters, brothers and their children.) They didn’t each have their own homes. They all lived together in a one room house. As you note, widows without support (they had no sons) were in a dire position. The story of Ruth emphasis this. I didn’t say that they lived in Capernaum. I have seen the house in Nazareth that is said to be the house of Mary. She had a house in Nazareth but she probably did not own it. Women were considered property of their husbands and their care was given to her sons. It is why it was hardship for a woman not to have a son.
The society in which Mary moved would have been those in the synagogue. It seems that would have been her whole world.
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