Mary: "My Children,Build Me Shrines . . . Or Else!"

[Sacramentalist]

Dear all:

I ask this as a Catholic with a deep Marian devotion.

It’s long bothered me whenever I read these Marian revelations, like this newest version (Mary 10.01?): Our Lady of America

I find it hard to believe that the Mary of the New Testament would say things like:

"I desire that my children honor me."

"If my desires are not fulfilled much suffering will come to this land."

"This is my shrine, my daughter. I am very pleased with it. Tell my children I thank them. Let them finish it quickly and make it a place of pilgrimage."

This is like what Mary suposedly said at Guadalupe: I desire you to build a shrine in my honor" or something like that. Gracted that it’s a good thing to build shrines in honor of the saints . . but wouldn’t Christian humility preclude a saint ASKING for such an honor? Basically, “Make me shrines, or I will destroy you!”

"What am I to do, child of my heart, when my children turn from me?"

And so on and so forth.

And another thing: Why on earth would we "consecrate"ourselves to Mary?

Basically, it looks to me like the distinction between latria and dulia is just on paper. What concretely, differentiates the worship we give God and the worship we give the saints?

And yes, we do worship the saints, in the traditional English sense of the word "worship’ anyways.

Please, someone, explain to me how I would translate these concepts to a Bible-believing Protestant, because quite frankly I find it a bit much.

 

[VociMike]

I just don’t believe Mary would specifically mention nuclear war. It’s too topical, too much a child of the era (late '50s).

 

[Tantum_ergo]

There appears to be a confusion between approved apparitions, like Guadalupe, and unapproved ones like Sister Ephraims and the woman in Phoenix, AZ etc.

As for the consecration to Mary–a completely different topic, I recommend that you read St. Louis De Montfort’s, “True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin”. Take your time (you can find the whole book, or at least you could a year ago, on the fisheaters site), read through it carefully, especially the bit about the false devotees, etc., and PM me if you have questions.

 

[LilyM]

Dear all:

I ask this as a Catholic with a deep Marian devotion.

It’s long bothered me whenever I read these Marian revelations, like this newest version (Mary 10.01?): Our Lady of America

I find it hard to believe that the Mary of the New Testament would say things like:

"I desire that my children honor me."

"If my desires are not fulfilled much suffering will come to this land."

"This is my shrine, my daughter. I am very pleased with it. Tell my children I thank them. Let them finish it quickly and make it a place of pilgrimage."

This is like what Mary suposedly said at Guadalupe: I desire you to build a shrine in my honor" or something like that. Gracted that it’s a good thing to build shrines in honor of the saints . . but wouldn’t Christian humility preclude a saint ASKING for such an honor? Basically, “Make me shrines, or I will destroy you!”

"What am I to do, child of my heart, when my children turn from me?"

And so on and so forth.

And another thing: Why on earth would we "consecrate"ourselves to Mary?

Basically, it looks to me like the distinction between latria and dulia is just on paper. What concretely, differentiates the worship we give God and the worship we give the saints?

And yes, we do worship the saints, in the traditional English sense of the word "worship’ anyways.

Please, someone, explain to me how I would translate these concepts to a Bible-believing Protestant, because quite frankly I find it a bit much.

Is Our Lady of America an approved apparition??? If not, it’s against forum policy to discuss it.

As for Our Lady of Guadalupe - you didn’t read enough of what she said. She desired that a church be built so that Mass could be celebrated there, and Christ appropriately honoured, not merely herself.

Secondly - when we marry we consecrate ourselves entirely to our spouse, vowing in so many words to forsake ALL others. An older version of the vows even says ‘with my body I thee worship’

Does this mean we can’t correctly distinguish an appropriately loving attitude towards our spouses from an appropriate worship of God? Absolutely not. Same with Mary. We can love her, honour her, consecrate ourselves to her, without it detracting one iota from our worship of God.

And why shouldn’t Mary have desires of her own? We all do, and as long as they’re in conformity with those of God there’s nothing wrong with the fact. Mary’s will is always in conformity with that of God. Remember, she certainly had her own mind and will at Cana, it wasn’t wrong of her then, why would it be wrong in these cases?

You think God doesn’t desire His mother to be honoured? What honour could we possibly give her that is higher than those which He has bestowed upon her? Or higher than that which we give Him?

When we start baptising in Mary’s name, addressing the prayers of the Mass to her or saying ‘Body of Mary’ at Communion, that’s when we need to worry.

 

[Todd_Easton]

St. Paul told us to honor, remember, and imitate people of faith. (Philippians 2:29; Hebrews 13:7) Naming a Church building after the Blessed Virgin Mary is simply a concrete way of honoring, remembering, and encouraging the imitation of her faithfulness to God.

 

[juliamca]

Mary does not ask for herself only that her son sent her. I have read lot of books on Mary and i have not seen anything for herself but that her son will it done.
Lily M said it best we dont say the body of Mary during the mass!!!

 

[francesco920]

Basically, it looks to me like the distinction between latria and dulia is just on paper. What concretely, differentiates the worship we give God and the worship we give the saints?

From wikipedia:

Latria is sacrificial in character, and may be offered only to God. Catholics offer other degrees of reverence to the Blessed Virgin Mary and to the Saints; these non-sacrificial types of reverence are called Hyperdulia and Dulia, respectively. Hyperdulia is essentially a heightened degree of dulia provided only to the Blessed Virgin. This distinction, written about as early as Augustine of Hippo and St Jerome, was detailed more explicitly by Thomas Aquinas in his Summa Theologiae, A.D. 1270, II II, 84, 1: “Reverence is due to God on account of His excellence, which is communicated to certain creatures not in equal measure, but according to a measure of proportion; and so the reverence which we pay to God, and which belongs to latria, differs from the reverence which we pay to certain excellent creatures; this belongs to dulia, and we shall speak of it further on (II II 103 3)”; in this next article St. Thomas Aquinas writes: “Wherefore dulia, which pays due service to a human lord, is a distinct virtue from latria, which pays due service to the Lordship of God. It is, moreover, a species of observance, because by observance we honor all those who excel in dignity, while dulia properly speaking is the reverence of servants for their master, dulia being the Greek for servitude.” From St. Thomas it is apparent that a clear distinction exists among latria and forms of dulia within Catholic theology.

It seems to me that *latria *means giving adoration, honor, praise, and sacrifice to God simply for the fact that He is worthy of these because of Who He is. Dulia means to give honor and praise (but not adoration or sacrifice) to saints because of their service/relationship/fidelity to God and heroic virtue, and not because of who they are. So we do not give honor and praise to St. Lawrence because he is Lawrence, but rather because he was martyred for his faith in the Lord. Therefore dulia is also an indirect worship of God. Hyperdulia is simply a higher degree of dulia offered to the BVM because of her unique role in God’s plan as His Mother.

That’s at least how I understand it. I hope that helps.

 

[Sacramentalist]

Yes, the Our Lady of America devotion/apparition is approved by the local bishop. Check out the website.

Second, for Julia: Our Lady of Gudalupe told Juan Diego to build a temple in her honor. So does Our Lady of America. Can we imagine ANY saint, let alone Mary, asking people to build churches in their honor?!

 

[LilyM]

Yes, the Our Lady of America devotion/apparition is approved by the local bishop. Check out the website.

Second, for Julia: Our Lady of Gudalupe told Juan Diego to build a temple in her honor. So does Our Lady of America. Can we imagine ANY saint, let alone Mary, asking people to build churches in their honor?!

Like I said, in Guadalupe Mary’s own honour wasn’t her first consideration. She asked that a CHURCH be built so that Christ could be honoured there in the Mass. Those are her exact words.

Now a Church is a temple it is true, but a temple of the one true God, never of Mary or anyone else, even if it be named in someone else’s honour. Their name out front means nothing in comparison to the literal and real presence of Christ within in the Blessed Sacrament. Every Catholic Church is God’s house first and foremost.

Mary always puts Christ above herself. Doesn’t mean she has no right to honours of her own, being His first and foremost follower.

 

[water]

“Weep, then, dear children, weep with your mother over the sins of men,” said Mary. “Intercede with me before the throne of mercy, for sin is overwhelming the world and punishment is not far away.”

“It is the darkest hour, but if men will come to me, **my Immaculate heart will make it bright again with the mercy which my Son **will rain down through my hands. Help me save those who will not save themselves. Help me bring once again the sunshine of God’s peace upon the world.”

Sacramentalist, these quotes are also found in the link you provided. These are the two quotes we could also discuss - they can’t be left out for the sake of this thread.