Mary, Nuns, and muslim women

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

I have attached below one of my favourite pictures of Mary, by Bouguereau. With her head covering and modest look, I wonder if muslim women are attracted to this.

Also attached is a photo of a nun from Lebanon, St Rafqa. She looks very Islamic. I’ve often wondered if this is a deliberate picture from the Catholic Church to attract muslim women.

Do these photos capture the hearts and imagination of muslim women (and men)?

 

[Sister_Amy]

Muslim women have tremendous respect for Mary–she is the most honored woman in Islam. An entire chapter is named after her in the Qur’an. (Surah Mariam).

But Muslim women cover out of submission to God–as a commandment from God, for modesty. They generally assume that Mary covered as well, out of modesty. Seeing Mary covered wouldn’t attract them to Catholicism, however, because it’s natural to assume, and I doubt there are many pictures of Mary anyway without her hair covered.

On the other hand, paintings of people (any person) are very very frowned upon in Islam, especially those which are venerated, adored, even hung on walls (many scholars go so far as to say they are forbidden.)

I have an interesting story though. A Muslim friend of mine, several years ago when her daughter was just a baby, was walking around in typical Muslim dress with a very loose dresscoat (jilbab) and headscarf, and a child who saw her yelled out to her mom, “Look, Mom, it’s Baby Jesus and the Virgin Mary!!” The child took the modestly covered Muslim woman to be dressed as Mary. :yup:

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

Too funny, Sister Amy; Thanks for sharing that lovely story. :yup:

 

[RLT]

I’ve often wondered if this is a deliberate picture from the Catholic Church to attract muslim women.

I would say that because of the style of dress of the period/culture and artist’s interpretation the similarity in clothing is coincidental, not a submersive ruse to lure muslim women.

 

[dolphinlove]

I have an interesting story though. A Muslim friend of mine, several years ago when her daughter was just a baby, was walking around in typical Muslim dress with a very loose dresscoat (jilbab) and headscarf, and a child who saw her yelled out to her mom, “Look, Mom, it’s Baby Jesus and the Virgin Mary!!” The child took the modestly covered Muslim woman to be dressed as Mary. :yup:

My niece did this exact same thing when they were on holidays, your not an aussie by any chance are you?

 

[Reuben_J]

On the other hand, paintings of people (any person) are very very frowned upon in Islam, especially those which are venerated, adored, even hung on walls (many scholars go so far as to say they are forbidden.)

I am wondering, Amy.

We have not only pictures but statues. I could not remember if anyone of us said we had fallen because pictures and statues are in our homes an churches. Instead on the contrary …

What effect do these articles have on Muslims, BTW? I hope you guys are sane enough to distinguish …, well, I don’t know.

 

[AgnosTheist]

In Islam every woman is a Virgin Mary.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Well the Muslim view is that statues are graven images–and that statues of anything are bad. And even paintings hung up are bad. If you went to a mosque for example you wouldn’t find any statues, or any pictures on the walls.

And Muslims frown on the practice of Catholics to have statues of Jesus and Mary, paintings.

I know that when a Catholic prays in front of a picture or statue of Mary for example, he doesn’t think that the statue is doing anything back. But Muslims still consider this to be a kind of worship of the statue or painting, worship that should only be due to God.

I don’t really want to say that to offend anyone, but rather just give the Islamic view.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

… And Muslims frown on the practice of Catholics to have statues of Jesus and Mary, paintings.

I don’t know if that’s really true. I think there are plenty of muslims who are intrigued by the Our Lady of Fatima shrine.

Also, I remember - watching on LBC television - that when the relics of St Therese visited Lebanon, it was greeted warmly by christians and muslims alike.

I don’t really want to say that to offend anyone, but rather just give the Islamic view.

You’re too kind. None offence taken.

 

[Reuben_J]

Well the Muslim view is that statues are graven images–and that statues of anything are bad. And even paintings hung up are bad. If you went to a mosque for example you wouldn’t find any statues, or any pictures on the walls.

And Muslims frown on the practice of Catholics to have statues of Jesus and Mary, paintings.

I know that when a Catholic prays in front of a picture or statue of Mary for example, he doesn’t think that the statue is doing anything back. But Muslims still consider this to be a kind of worship of the statue or painting, worship that should only be due to God.

I don’t really want to say that to offend anyone, but rather just give the Islamic view.

One thing I discovered when dialogue with Muslims is that they do not answer question directly. I guess I have to learn to live with this.

I was asking what effect does pictures and statues have on Muslims? They certainly do not cause us Catholics to fall into sins. In fact the opposite - like enhancing prayers and confidence in belief. Though these articles (statues / pictures) are not indespensible, we see no reason for not including them in our places of worship and in our homes, just like we keep pictures of our love ones. I have never heard of any Catholic falls into worship of the statues.

In this instance they are not graven images because they are not to be worshipped. Fortunately Catholics are intelligent enough to know the difference.

So that’s why I want to find out how and what effect they have on Muslims. Would it leads to Muslims worship them or what? Or you don’t have them because they are not permitted, that they are graven images? We don’t see them that way. On the other hand, anything can become graven images if we take them for worship. And that can be statues of plants and animals. Why not?

 

[Sister_Amy]

One thing I discovered when dialogue with Muslims is that they do not answer question directly. I guess I have to learn to live with this.

Sorry. I will try to do better.

I was asking what effect does pictures and statues have on Muslims?

I don’t think I can say what the “effect” is on a very diverse group of over a billion people. I try not to look at statues myself, or paintings. I don’t know of any actual effect though.

They certainly do not cause us Catholics to fall into sins.

Not in your religion.

In fact the opposite - like enhancing prayers and confidence in belief. Though these articles (statues / pictures) are not indespensible, we see no reason for not including them in our places of worship and in our homes, just like we keep pictures of our love ones. I have never heard of any Catholic falls into worship of the statues.

Because in Catholicism, it’s not worship. The Islamic definition of worship is much more broad. Many strictly observant Muslims will not even keep pictures of loved ones–especially on their walls–maybe in wallets, drawers, cabinets, etc.

In this instance they are not graven images because they are not to be worshipped. Fortunately Catholics are intelligent enough to know the difference.

Like I said, the Islamic definition of what actually constitutes worship is very broad.

So that’s why I want to find out how and what effect they have on Muslims.

If Muslims don’t make these pictures, keep them, or look at them, how can they have an effect? I don’t know… Oh, I know that some Muslims I’ve talked to will say things to the effect that it bothers them to see representations like statues and paintings because they know that they are incorrect.

Would it leads to Muslims worship them or what?

Remember that the Islamic definition of ‘worship’ is very broad. It might lead the person to an attachment to the painting that wouldn’t be appropriate.

Or you don’t have them because they are not permitted, that they are graven images?

They aren’t permitted–based on authentic narrations from Muhammad.

We don’t see them that way. On the other hand, anything can become graven images if we take them for worship. And that can be statues of plants and animals. Why not?

In Islam, a person is not allowed to even drink alcohol–so he can never become an alcoholic, so he can never get drunk. Similarly, a person is not allowed to be alone with a person of the opposite sex, so they can never come close to fornication. In the same way, a person is not to have pictures and statues and images around, so they can never come close to what is the most major sin in Islam–to “worship” anything other than Allah.

 

[elt1956]

I have attached below one of my favourite pictures of Mary, by Bouguereau. With her head covering and modest look, I wonder if muslim women are attracted to this.

Also attached is a photo of a nun from Lebanon, St Rafqa. She looks very Islamic. I’ve often wondered if this is a deliberate picture from the Catholic Church to attract muslim women.

Do these photos capture the hearts and imagination of muslim women (and men)?

Well I guess everyone does whatever they can to familiarize people with their church. But my personal thoughts on this is that it is a representation of a woman in Islamic, or Middle Eastern traditional dress, because that is where the artist is from. If one is of the white race, Christ and Mary are seen as white. If one is of another race, say Native American one sees them as Native American. Ever seen the picture of Our Lady of Guadelupe? She is Mexican, or South American.

 

[elt1956]

Sorry. I will try to do better.

I don’t think I can say what the “effect” is on a very diverse group of over a billion people. I try not to look at statues myself, or paintings. I don’t know of any actual effect though.

Not in your religion.

Because in Catholicism, it’s not worship. The Islamic definition of worship is much more broad. Many strictly observant Muslims will not even keep pictures of loved ones–especially on their walls–maybe in wallets, drawers, cabinets, etc.

Like I said, the Islamic definition of what actually constitutes worship is very broad.

If Muslims don’t make these pictures, keep them, or look at them, how can they have an effect? I don’t know… Oh, I know that some Muslims I’ve talked to will say things to the effect that it bothers them to see representations like statues and paintings because they know that they are incorrect.

Remember that the Islamic definition of ‘worship’ is very broad. It might lead the person to an attachment to the painting that wouldn’t be appropriate.

They aren’t permitted–based on authentic narrations from Muhammad.

In Islam, a person is not allowed to even drink alcohol–so he can never become an alcoholic, so he can never get drunk. Similarly, a person is not allowed to be alone with a person of the opposite sex, so they can never come close to fornication. In the same way, a person is not to have pictures and statues and images around, so they can never come close to what is the most major sin in Islam–to “worship” anything other than Allah.

The little I know of the Islamic faith, it appears to me to be a very, very personal relationship with God. This faith permeates one’s government, personal life, business life etc. So when one to be in a very intimate communion with Godt, the fewer the distractions, the better. I would think that allowing oneself to be distracted from conversing with God would be the problem and a sin by taking away time that is to be spent with God.

 

[Reuben_J]

Sorry. I will try to do better.

I don’t think I can say what the “effect” is on a very diverse group of over a billion people. I try not to look at statues myself, or paintings. I don’t know of any actual effect though.

Not in your religion.

Because in Catholicism, it’s not worship. The Islamic definition of worship is much more broad. Many strictly observant Muslims will not even keep pictures of loved ones–especially on their walls–maybe in wallets, drawers, cabinets, etc.

Like I said, the Islamic definition of what actually constitutes worship is very broad.

If Muslims don’t make these pictures, keep them, or look at them, how can they have an effect? I don’t know… Oh, I know that some Muslims I’ve talked to will say things to the effect that it bothers them to see representations like statues and paintings because they know that they are incorrect.

Remember that the Islamic definition of ‘worship’ is very broad. It might lead the person to an attachment to the painting that wouldn’t be appropriate.

They aren’t permitted–based on authentic narrations from Muhammad.

Thanks. Noted.

in Islam, a person is not allowed to even drink alcohol–so he can never become an alcoholic, so he can never get drunk. Similarly, a person is not allowed to be alone with a person of the opposite sex, so they can never come close to fornication. In the same way, a person is not to have pictures and statues and images around, so they can never come close to what is the most major sin in Islam–to “worship” anything other than Allah.

Well, this conforms to earlier explanation by other Muslims. Inevitably the discussion will lead to the issue of ‘free will’, ‘robot’ and human beings able/unable to make up their own mind. There is a very loooong thread on this here, but simply put, I think that’s one of the differences between Islam and Christianity.

Of course, rules like that are not fool proof and despite them the forbiddens still happen. So we Catholics do not see any reasons for them in the first place, and more, they take away from God his magnimanity when he gives us the grace of free will.

Thanks all the same.

 

[elt1956]

Thanks. Noted.

Well, this conforms to earlier explanation by other Muslims. Inevitably the discussion will lead to the issue of ‘free will’, ‘robot’ and human beings able/unable to make up their own mind. There is a very loooong thread on this here, but simply put, I think that’s one of the differences between Islam and Christianity.

Of course, rules like that are not fool proof and despite them the forbiddens still happen. So we Catholics do not see any reasons for them in the first place, and more, they take away from God his magnimanity when he gives us the grace of free will.

Thanks all the same.

Aren’t we Catholics supposed to conform to certain rules made by the Church? How are those rules any different from those of Islam we don’t understand, or agree with? :tiphat: