Mary on Luther's tomb

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I hear there is a base relief of Mary’s assumption on Luther’s tomb. Can someone point me to a photo of it? Can’t find one online (yet). Thanks.
 
You might have a look at this:

interfaithmarianpilgrimages.com/pages/mary_Luther.html

It’s not on Luther’s tomb but is nearby. It is important to note that it has no relationship to Luther’s tomb except its proximity.

It is also worth noting that Luther’s devotion to Mary is more than one typically finds among Lutherans today (if one finds any Marian devotion among Lutherans today) but does not go as far as traditional Catholic devotions. For what it’s worth, I think Luther’s take on Mary is pretty good.
 
Looks bare to me.

It’s possible - there could be something else on the backside - or on the two ends.
 
Interesting information about Luther at that website, concerning Mary.
interfaithmarianpilgrimages.com/pages/mary_Luther.html
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Generally Luther was against any invocations of saints and against asking for their intercession. But Mother Mary, whom he was happy to call the Mother of God, was a case apart, unlike any other saint. This is probably because he recognized the Biblical precedent for Mary’s intercession. After all, at the wedding in Cana, she obtained help from Jesus for the party even though her son tried to resist her nudging. (John 2 :1-11) So, no wonder that Catholics say, Jesus can’t refuse the requests of his mother.
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“In the resolutions of the 95 theses Luther rejects every blasphemy against the Virgin and thinks that one should ask for pardon for any evil said or thought against her.” He preached on Mary on all her feast days, more so than most Catholic priests do today. This custom was continued for about a century after Luther’s death. He was also comfortable with keeping celebrated images of Mary in his churches where they remained until the time of “Enlightenment” in the 18th century.
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What did Luther think of the most famous Marian prayers? He directed that the Magnificat be sung daily in all churches. He conceded that the Hail Mary could form part of a healthy prayer life, though he doubted most believers’ ability to pray it with the correct attitude. But the Hail Holy Queen and the Queen of Heaven he condemned as extravagant and “unevangelical”.
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Luther quotes on Mary:
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“(She is the) highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ … She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still, honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to hurt neither Christ nor the scriptures.” (Sermon, Christmas, 1531)
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“It is the consolation and the superabundant goodness of God, that humanity is able to exult in such a treasure. Mary is its true Mother …” (Sermon, Christmas, 1529)
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“Mary is the Mother of Jesus and the Mother of all of us, even though it was Christ alone who reposed on her knees… If he is ours, we ought to be in his situation; there where he is we ought also to be, and all that he has ought also to be ours, and his mother is also our mother.” (Sermon, Christmas 1529)
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“People have crowded all her glory into a single phrase: The Mother of God. No one can say anything greater of her, though he had as many tongues as there are leaves on the tress.” (From the Commentary of the Magnificat)
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“God did not receive his divinity from Mary, but it does not follow that it is therefore wrong to say that God was born of Mary, that God is Mary’s Son, and that Mary is God’s mother. … She is the true mother of God and bearer of God. … Mary suckled God, rocked God to sleep, prepared broth and soup for God, etc. For God and man are one person, one Christ, one Son, one Jesus, not two Christs… just as your son is not 2 sons… even though he has two natures, body and soul, the body from you, the soul from God alone.” (On the Councils of the Church, 1539)
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Luther believed in Mary’s perpetual virginity and in her Immaculate Conception. Only the latter he didn’t think should be a dogma that people are obliged to believe.
“It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary’s soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God’s gifts, receiving a pure soul, infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin.” (Sermon, “On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God”, 1527)
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“…she is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin… God’s grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil… God is with her, meaning that all she did or left undone is divine and the action of God in her.” (Luther’s Works, ed. H. Lehmann, Fortress Press, 1968, vol. 43, p.40)
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“We can use the Hail Mary as a meditation in which we recite what grace God has given her. Second, we should add a wish that everyone may know and respect her.” (Personal Prayer Book, 1522)
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TommyWommy said:
I hear there is a base relief of Mary’s assumption on Luther’s tomb. Can someone point me to a photo of it? Can’t find one online (yet). Thanks.
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This myth has been circulated by Catholic apologists. Back in 2007, Mark Shea did a webcast on the Assumption of Mary and stated, “For Luther the Assumption was a settled fact…indeed Luther’s burial vault in the Wittenburg church on whose door he had posted his ninety five theses was adorned with the 1521 Peter Vischer’s sculpture of the Coronation of the Virgin.”

Shea explains in an old blog entry:
“And, of course, problems with it constituted no difficulty for the Reformers, which is why Luther’s tomb is decorated with a bas-relief of the Assumption. Indeed, objections to Mary are johnny-come-latelies on the stage of Protestant theology, as is demonstrated by Fr. Peter Stravinskas in Mary and the Fundamentalist Challenge.”
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This is the claim made by Peter Stravinskas:
“Most interesting of all, perhaps, is the realization that his burial chamber in the Wittenberg church, on whose door he had posted his 95 Theses, was adorned with the 1521 Peter Vischer sculpture of the Coronation of the Virgin, with the inscription containing these lines: Ad summum Regina thronum defertur in altum: Angelicis praelatia choris, cui festus et ipse Filius occurrens Matrem super aethera ponit. This “archaeological” fact would seem to speak volumes about Luther’s final thoughts on the place of Mary in the life of a Christian.”
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But as has been mentioned already, the relief of the Coronation of the Virgin and inscription by Peter Vischer the Younger is the memorial plaque for Henning Göde, the last Catholic Prior of the church where Luther is buried. Göde died in 1521.

James Swan
 
Barbkw said:
Interesting information about Luther at that website, concerning Mary. Luther believed in Mary’s perpetual virginity and in her Immaculate Conception. Only the latter he didn’t think should be a dogma that people are obliged to believe.
“It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary’s soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God’s gifts, receiving a pure soul, infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin.” (Sermon, “On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God”, 1527)
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What isn’t stated though is that this quote was removed from the sermon and rewritten by Luther.

James Swan
 
TertiumQuid said:
This myth has been circulated by Catholic apologists. Back in 2007, Mark Shea did a webcast on the Assumption of Mary and stated, “For Luther the Assumption was a settled fact…indeed Luther’s burial vault in the Wittenburg church on whose door he had posted his ninety five theses was adorned with the 1521 Peter Vischer’s sculpture of the Coronation of the Virgin.”

Shea explains in an old blog entry:

This is the claim made by Peter Stravinskas:

But as has been mentioned already, the relief of the Coronation of the Virgin and inscription by Peter Vischer the Younger is the memorial plaque for Henning Göde, the last Catholic Prior of the church where Luther is buried. Göde died in 1521.

James Swan
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The relief is obviously not “attached to” his tomb like an epitaph on a tombstone. But it seems that these apologists are trying to point out that the reformers had no problem with the relief “adorning,” “decorating” or being in the same “chamber” or “vault” as Luther, thereby validating the Assumption as being accepted by them as well as Luther. If the Assumption was problematic for them or Luther, why not relocate the relief?

I can see how other people could take these statements and paraphrase them by saying “The relief is on his tomb,” but it doesn’t look like these apologists are intentionally trying to “circulate a myth,” at least as I read it. The relief is indeed “in the chamber” or “vault” and they say that. The exception is when Shea says, his “tomb is decorated” which could easily be taken to mean either “attached to” or “in close proximity to.”

Knowing how problematic the Assumption is for most protestants I encounter, I think it would surprise me to see the relief there if I visited the site (and if I didn’t already know to expect it). I would think to myself, “What is that doing here? Seems of out of place.” For me, it would be almost like walking into a fundamentalist church and seeing a big crucifix behind the pulpit.
 
TommyWommy said:
The relief is obviously not “attached to” his tomb like an epitaph on a tombstone. But it seems that these apologists are trying to point out that the reformers had no problem with the relief “adorning,” “decorating” or being in the same “chamber” or “vault” as Luther, thereby validating the Assumption as being accepted by them as well as Luther. If the Assumption was problematic for them or Luther, why not relocate the relief?

I can see how other people could take these statements and paraphrase them by saying “The relief is on his tomb,” but it doesn’t look like these apologists are intentionally trying to “circulate a myth,” at least as I read it. The relief is indeed “in the chamber” or “vault” and they say that. The exception is when Shea says, his “tomb is decorated” which could easily be taken to mean either “attached to” or “in close proximity to.”

Knowing how problematic the Assumption is for most protestants I encounter, I think it would surprise me to see the relief there if I visited the site (and if I didn’t already know to expect it). I would think to myself, “What is that doing here? Seems of out of place.” For me, it would be almost like walking into a fundamentalist church and seeing a big crucifix behind the pulpit.
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Many Protestant churches in Germany have crucifixes. I am thinking of the one in ULM Catherdral at this moment. Iconoclasm was not a big thing in Lutheranism.
 
RobbyS said:
Many Protestant churches in Germany have crucifixes. I am thinking of the one in ULM Catherdral at this moment. Iconoclasm was not a big thing in Lutheranism.
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I know, but in the U.S.A. it is unthinkable for a fundamentalist/evangelical church to display a “papist” crucifix. Fundamentalists/evangelicals hold Luther in high esteem. Hence, my use of the example to illustrate how it would feel for ME (and, I suspect, many American protestants) to see the relief next to Luther. Very “out of place.” Fundamentalism/evangelicalism is very anti-Catholic, and often is what the apologists are addressing and defending against.
 
TommyWommy said:
Thanks. Wow, that’s a lot of info to read regarding one single quote from Luther!

Honestly, with so much to sort through, I don’t know how any apologist on either side can be 100% accurate with all the facts about everything all the time. Where do you folks find the time? 🤷😃
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It all starts by looking up stuff before posting or publishing. This should go without saying, for both Protestants and Roman Catholics.

Just a few days ago I was going to post a quote from Tertullian that I found in a book about end times. The book put forth a quote from Tertullian infering that he was saying it was the end of the world. I went and looked up the quote, and Tertullian was saying no such thing.

5 or 10 years ago, it was standard for Luther to be cited without helpful documentation all over the Internet. Now, there’s no excuse, so much is available. I could go through a lot of the quotes posted here earlier, and put them back in context, minus the polemic.

That’s what so bothered me about Shea & Stravinskas on Luther’s tomb. Both should know better than to simply post stuff without checking it. They are professional apologists, and a pro should know to check their facts before going to print.

James Swan
 
TertiumQuid said:
It all starts by looking up stuff before posting or publishing. This should go without saying, for both Protestants and Roman Catholics.

Just a few days ago I was going to post a quote from Tertullian that I found in a book about end times. The book put forth a quote from Tertullian infering that he was saying it was the end of the world. I went and looked up the quote, and Tertullian was saying no such thing.

5 or 10 years ago, it was standard for Luther to be cited without helpful documentation all over the Internet. Now, there’s no excuse, so much is available. I could go through a lot of the quotes posted here earlier, and put them back in context, minus the polemic.

That’s what so bothered me about Shea & Stravinskas on Luther’s tomb. Both should know better than to simply post stuff without checking it. They are professional apologists, and a pro should know to check their facts before going to print.

James Swan
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Well, let’s hope that diligent, professional study from both sides serves to increase knowledge, understanding, faith, hope and love.🙂
 
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