Mary replacing Holy Spirit?

[Neithan]

I’m relatively new to Catholicism and I’ve been reading up a bit more on Mary and her role. Many Protestants protest that Mary takes the place of Christ as the Mediator between God and Man. Catholics answer that this is not true, and that everything Mary has, she has from her Son, however, we still attribute to Mary the title “Mediatrix of all Graces.” I read this in an article from EWTN:

So we answer, since Mary was associated with her Son in acquiring grace for us, she will also share with him in distributing that grace to us. This fits well with the words of the Popes, who call her the administra of grace, meaning that she administers or dispenses it. So Pope Leo XIII, Iucunda semper, said:
“… when He [the Father] has been invoked with excellent prayers, our humble voice turns to Mary; in accordance with no other law than that law of conciliation and petition which was expressed as follows by St. Bernardine of Siena : ‘Every grace that is communicated to this world has a threefold course. For by excellent order, it is dispensed from God to Christ, from Christ to the Virgin, from the Virgin to us.’”

Now, we see a nice Trinity here: Father, Son and Mother. Whoops, where is the Holy Spirit? Mary isn’t taking the place of Christ, that has been made clear, but she certainly seems to be edging out the Third Person of God!! Isn’t it the Holy Spirit who imparts to us the Graces through the Son from the Father? Why is Mary standing in His stead? The eyes of the pious chant rosary after rosary, a prayer which has no direct worship of the Holy Spirit, but plenty of adoration for the Blessed Virgin. As Blessed as our Holy Queen is, should she really be elevated to the position of the Divine? Does she sanctify us? Does she bestow Gifts? If she is “…Consoler of the afflicted, and the treasurer sequestra] of all graces with God,” what does the Holy Spirit do?

St. Pius X said she was the "dispensatrix of all the gifts, and is the “neck” connecting the Head of the Mystical Body to the Members. But all power flows through the neck

If Mary is the “neck” which connects us to Christ, and through whom “all power flows,” what need do we have of the Holy Spirit? Is Mary the one who oversees the Church Militant, or isn’t that position appointed to the Spirit? Was it Mary who guided the Apostles?

It’s been noted by Rome that popular piety for the Holy Spirit is lacking. It seems that Our Lady has been the focus instead. Does she really want such an abundance of devotion? Especially when it diverts attention away from the Trinity in its proper form? Who is really our Comforter?

Suffice it to say, I’m a little confused. Call me a heretic, but I think this might be a case of a doctrine a little overblown.

 

[Church_Militant]

My friend,
Read some more. Mary was saved by Christ and she has NEVER been attributed the latria due to God alone. Mediatrix of all graces is simply an acknowlegement of the role that Mary played in the redemption of us all. In the sense that Jesus was born of her body, it is not at all wrong to realize that through her all graces have come to us. Don’t let folks rattle your cage.
Have a great Christmas!

 

[dhgray]

When I converted, Mary was the hardest hurdle to get over. I reconsiled it like this:

We honor because:

she was set aside (by God) to carry his son)

she (as a young, unmarried woman) said, “Yes I will.”

she remained faithful to the father and the son when everyone else turned their back.

She is a roll model of selfless sacrafice we all should emulate.

Growing up, the worst thing you could do in insult or disrespcect some ones mother. How many people (speaking to the non-Catholics) only recoginize Mary from December 1st to 26th and then put her away for another year?

 

[Shiann]

I’ve posted this on other threads, but I think it really applies here as well.

My impression of Mary and her role in our lives changed when I was offered the following information.

I was reminded that we often refer to Mary as Queen of Heaven or Mother of the King, etc…

The Queen in ancient Jewish cultures, was not the King’s wife, but his mother. The subjects of a kingdom would beseach the queen for answers to their troubles- and she would then intercede for them to the king.

 

[Hesychios]

Of course we all know the difference between latria and dulia and yes, we do not worship Mary.

All serious Catholics seriously know this. But when a comment is made like this one posted by Neithan I believe it deserves more than just a pat defense of Mary. To defend the Holy Spirit is not an attack on Mary, in fact it is the higher road.

But in the minds of a great many Catholics Mary does occupy the place in consciousness that would be focused on the Holy Spirit. This should be no surprise to any observant Catholic.

God is triune. We might focus our attention and love on just God as One, or we might focus on one Person of the Trinity. We pray to Christ a great deal, for example, but what part does the Holy Spirit play in our lives these days?

Aside from a mention in the Doxology (in it’s various forms) the Holy Spirit almost seems neglected of our attention. Yet it is the Holy Spirit we identify with the Paraclete, with us always.

Mary our mother is called upon in so many ways, we count on her and appeal to her. She symbolizes the church. We think of her often and call upon her in many ways that we probably could, or should, appeal to the Holy Spirit. In that sense I think she does supplant the Holy Spirit in the minds of people and it does no good to rationalize it away. It’s almost like she is elbowing the Holy Spirit out of place, but it is not her, it is us. I think that it would be prudent of us to be aware of that.

Everyone will so quickly rise to defend our Marian devotion, but it should never obscure the Paraclete in our consciousness. I think the third millenium will be the time of the Holy Spirit.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

dhgray:

Growing up, the worst thing you could do in insult or disrespcect some ones mother. How many people (speaking to the non-Catholics) only recoginize Mary from December 1st to 26th and then put her away for another year?

I have one worst than that .I know many catholics who recognize Jesus on christmas and easter only. God Bless

 

[Bill_A]

I think the protestants make a good observation that maybe some Catholics Worship the virigin Mary, I than Make time to remind them and the protestants that we pray to the Virgin Mary for intercession in times of illness or when faced with great evil.

Not during Eucharistinc Adoration.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Hesychios:

Of course we all know the difference between latria and dulia and yes, we do not worship Mary.

All serious Catholics seriously know this. But when a comment is made like this one posted by Neithan I believe it deserves more than just a pat defense of Mary. To defend the Holy Spirit is not an attack on Mary, in fact it is the higher road.

But in the minds of a great many Catholics Mary does occupy the place in consciousness that would be focused on the Holy Spirit. This should be no surprise to any observant Catholic.

God is triune. We might focus our attention and love on just God as One, or we might focus on one Person of the Trinity. We pray to Christ a great deal, for example, but what part does the Holy Spirit play in our lives these days?

Aside from a mention in the Doxology (in it’s various forms) the Holy Spirit almost seems neglected of our attention. Yet it is the Holy Spirit we identify with the Paraclete, with us always.

Mary our mother is called upon in so many ways, we count on her and appeal to her. She symbolizes the church. We think of her often and call upon her in many ways that we probably could, or should, appeal to the Holy Spirit. In that sense I think she does supplant the Holy Spirit in the minds of people and it does no good to rationalize it away. It’s almost like she is elbowing the Holy Spirit out of place, but it is not her, it is us. I think that it would be prudent of us to be aware of that.

Everyone will so quickly rise to defend our Marian devotion, but it should never obscure the Paraclete in our consciousness. I think the third millenium will be the time of the Holy Spirit.

== A very good post on a very very sensitive topic.

IMO, she has already edged out the Holy Spirit to some extent; when Max Kolbe can call her a “quasi-incarnation of the Holy Spirit”, I think it is time to call a halt to a devotion that seem to have got way out of control.

We can hardly object to Protestant objections to her, when that is said. IMO, we can be our own worst enemies at times ==

 

[Neithan]

Hesychios you express my concerns exactly.

I found this letter from Paul VI concerning this same topic. In it he mentions the Encyclical on the Holy Ghost from Leo XIII. Have these been followed? It doesn’t seem like it, and with all due respect to his Holiness John Paul II, his devotion to Our Lady of Fatima hasn’t really stressed the strictly secondary nature of Mary’s position in relation to her divine Spouse. Perhaps we should devote a little more attention to the Spirit who makes all grace possible, and on whom our Holy Mother also depends.

 

[nordskoven]

The Blessed Virgin Mary shares SPOUSAL UNITY with the Holy Spirit, the same SPOUSAL UNITY Christ’s Bride, the Church, will share with Him upon His Second Coming.

As for John Paul II’s devotion to Our Lady of the Rosary (Fatima), he has yet to call for all bishops to consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart as requested at Fatima, and given as the “only” means to peace.

“Pray the Rosary daily for peace.” --Our Lady of the Rosary

The Blessed Virgin appears under titles, and this use of Mediatrix and the Virgin in front of the cross is from the most condemned apparition in Church history, “The Lady of All Nations Who Once Was Mary: Coredemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate.” This “Final Dogma” of CoMA is dead, buried by Cardinal Ratzinger. The real Blessed Virgin always points to the Lord.

 

[Neithan]

Ironically the same Pope Leo XIII who wrote the encyclical calling on devotion to the Paraclete wrote such a number of encyclicals on the Blessed Virgin, that (according to the same article from EWTN mentioned above)

These and many other texts speak in varied ways of Mary as Mediatrix of all graces, so often that the teaching has become infallible (italics mine).

If so many papal encyclicals mention Mary as Mediatrix, such a title couldn’t be just done away with.

 

[Hesychios]

Neithan:

If so many papal encyclicals mention Mary as Mediatrix, such a title couldn’t be just done away with.

I agree it’s ironic, if he was trying to achieve some sort of compensating balance it clearly didn’t work. It gives one pause, doesn’t it?

When understanding the truly secondary nature of Mary in Salvation ( not to say it is unimportant, but she -like us- exists for God’s purposes alone), comments like these:

The Blessed Virgin Mary shares SPOUSAL UNITY with the Holy Spirit

Sound disturbingly heretical.

Spousal unity implies some sort of marriage, if I am wrong please correct me here.

In marriage two become one. I think it best to jettison such language in reference to Our Lady, it is loaded terminology and can be misleading.

The real Blessed Virgin always points to the Lord.

Amen, Amen, Amen

Nil Carius Christo
+T+

 

[Scott_Waddell]

You are going to have to actually demonstrate why spousal unity with the HS is heretical rather than merely imply that it is. When we consider divine filiation–a bond of kinship with the Father that all the faithful have, I don’t see the problem.

Scott

 

[Bill_A]

Saying that Mary Shares spousel Authority with Jesus Equites to dietism. For Jesus is the Son of God and Mary the Mother of Jesus. Is not technically the progenitor of God the Father. For her to be equal with Jesus would also Make her God. TO our understanding this is not possible and it also releys thoughts of incest in worldy terms but you can not tell the Catholic CHurch this. It is nearly a Doctrine of Dogma and for this reason I very rarely if ever say the Rosary.

 

[sherilo]

== A very good post on a very very sensitive topic.

IMO, she has already edged out the Holy Spirit to some extent; when Max Kolbe can call her a “quasi-incarnation of the Holy Spirit”, I think it is time to call a halt to a devotion that seem to have got way out of control.

We can hardly object to Protestant objections to her, when that is said. IMO, we can be our own worst enemies at times ==

It is truly wonderful to see a post such as this and that of **Hesychios. **I have been struggling with this issue for a long time, and it has been standing in the way of my taking the next step toward complete conversion. I am in no position to give any advice to anyone concerning their individual devotion to Mary, however since it is such a huge issue, at least to concede that the lines between devotion and worship seem to be a little blurred for some is an honest word about what is going on. I honestly believe that if that were not the case, Protestants would be more likely to listen to the truths about Mary.

Merry Christmas to all,
Sheri

 

[Neithan]

In marriage two become one. I think it best to jettison such language in reference to Our Lady, it is loaded terminology and can be misleading

In response to this I’ll quote Pope Paul VI’s letter:

The Holy Spirit and Mary

The Catholic Church has always believed, moreover, that when the Holy Spirit intervened in a personal way (even though inseparably from the other Persons of the Most Blessed Trinity) in the work of man’s salvation,(3) he made the humble Virgin of Nazareth his associate in that work. The Church has also maintained that the Holy Spirit acted therein in a manner consistent with his proper character as Personal Love of the Father and Son. That is, he acted with both infinite power and infinite gentleness in perfectly adapting the person of Mary and her dynamic powers of body and spirit to the role assigned her in the plan of redemption.(4)

This belief has arisen from an ever deeper and clearer understanding of the sacred texts. On the basis of it, the Fathers and Doctors of the eastern and western Churches have attributed to the various missions of the Holy Spirit, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, the fullness of grace and charity, of gifts and fruits of virtue, of evangelical beatitudes and special charisms which, like a trousseau for a heavenly marriage, adorned the predestined mystical Spouse of the divine Paraclete and the Mother of God’s Word made flesh. It is precisely because of her privileges and the exceptional gifts of grace which the Holy Spirit gave her that Mary is saluted in the liturgy as “Temple of the Lord” and “Sanctuary of the Holy Spirit” (italics mine).

The Blessed Virgin it appears is indeed the “mystical Spouse of the divine Paraclete,” yet this does not mean that we should confuse her with the Comforter in our consciousness. Surely Our Lady would not want us to neglect He Who has made her so Blessed?

The point is that we must all increase our devotion to the Holy Spirit first, Mary second. It is only by the Holy Spirit through Christ Our Lord that we can receive the grace in which the Mother of God has been made the most perfect example.

 

[nordskoven]

Get over it. Jesus Christ will return for His Bride, the Church. There is profound, holistic theology in all the sacraments, Baptismal rebirth reflecting He Who is the Living Water, and being endued with the Holy Spirit in Confirmation. Mass and Communion is mirrored in heavenly rites in John’s Apocalypse.

That bone in your throat is Jesus Christ returning for His Bride, the Church, and sharing SPOUSAL UNITY, unity with divinity, not divinity, with >blush< mankind. This is the receptivity demanded of us to which the Blessed Virgin already heroically assented. Hear and obey. God is glorified in His saints.

The Marian brouhaha seems to get bloody when phony apparitions are slipped into the mix. Blame the perpetrators, like the flogger of the condemned “Final Dogma” apparition with fist-shaking “Mary” sporting a cross in her head. Credit Mark Miravalle of Franciscan University of Steubenville for this grave error, and people like Scott Hahn who tolerate it, not Peter. This Rock stands.

Real Marian dogma always points reflexively to Jesus Christ. Use that as the touchstone. These titles–not dogma, poetic titles–of Mary always point to Jesus in a double entendre, like “Mother of Perpetual Help.” Who is our Perpetual Help? JESUS!

The Blessed Virgin Mary is Full of Grace, as perfect and sinless as the Woman of Genesis was created. She is the spotless bride for the Holy Spirit Who cannot be sinned against with any expectation of forgiveness. Got your spotless wedding garment ready?

The Woman of Genesis was given the power and authority, which passes to her Seed, of crushing Lucifer and his minions. No Woman, no Satan crushing mandate. The Woman of John’s “unveiling” which is a marriage term, Apocalypse, has appeared as the queen-mother, a great sign in the heavens.

Her Son was persecuted, and her other seed will be persecuted. Who’s your momma? Who’s your Brother? 'Cause the only other option is the Father of Lies and Murder, as the seed of Satan. This isn’t important enough for you? Jesus Christ and we, His brothers and sisters, prosecute the war against falsity and death only through her. God exalts the humble. Nobody worships Mary, nobody makes of her a goddess. Erase the Woman & Seed and you open the deadly gap in the hedge.

Disrespect of woman is the cause of all war. How’s that? Muslims, for example, have deep issues with women, even excising their genitalia. This isn’t circumcision, it’s mutilation. Woman, God’s gift to Adam, is the lightning rod that illumines good and evil, war and peace. Porn fans, do not expect peace without loving respect for women, and honor, not worship, for The Woman.

 

[dominicsavio]

Peace be with you!

I don’t think calling Mary the Mediatrix of All Graces takes the place of the role of the Holy Spirit at all. In another thread (I am not sure if I know how to post a link right, but it can be found here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=184169#post184169), some other posters and I dealt with the subject of Mary being Mediatrix. My posts are post numbers 44, 45 and 46 if I remember correctly. I posted several quotes from various saints applying this title to her. But I don’t think this title replaces the Holy Spirit with Mary at all. All people who have Marian devotion know quite well that she is “just” a creature in a sense. She is not God now, nor will she ever be. God is a Trinity of Persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. As some of the quotes in the thread I gave a link to point out though…Mary being Mediatrix is not by hers by nature because she is not God. But it is hers through grace and prayer according to the Will of God. Many, many saints have accepted this teaching. Mary is given that title in several papal encyclicals and Church documents…we must be careful not to reject what the Church teaches. But coming here so we can properly understand it is good too. I am really hoping that link works…as some of the quotes might help to bring light to this issue.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Hesychios you express my concerns exactly.

I found this letter from Paul VI concerning this same topic. In it he mentions the Encyclical on the Holy Ghost from Leo XIII. Have these been followed? It doesn’t seem like it, and with all due respect to his Holiness John Paul II, his devotion to Our Lady of Fatima hasn’t really stressed the strictly secondary nature of Mary’s position in relation to her divine Spouse. Perhaps we should devote a little more attention to the Spirit who makes all grace possible, and on whom our Holy Mother also depends.

== Talking of ignored letters, I would like the letters of Paul VI on the Sacred Heart from 1965 & 1966 to get the attention they deserve. They seem to have sunk without trace.

Your post is spot-on. And if the Spirit of God got more attention, not as an appendage to Mariology, but as the God He is, Mariology would IMO be far healthier. We wont see her in focus, if the God Who invented her is not rightly considered (so far as is possible, that is). ==

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Neithan:

In response to this I’ll quote Pope Paul VI’s letter:

The Blessed Virgin it appears is indeed the “mystical Spouse of the divine Paraclete,” yet this does not mean that we should confuse her with the Comforter in our consciousness. Surely Our Lady would not want us to neglect He Who has made her so Blessed?

The point is that we must all increase our devotion to the Holy Spirit first, Mary second. It is only by the Holy Spirit through Christ Our Lord that we can receive the grace in which the Mother of God has been made the most perfect example.

== “Sanctuary of the Holy Spirit” - fair enough; after all, so are all Christians.

“…quasi-incarnation of the Holy Spirit”, “Salvatrix”, “Co-Redemptrix”, “co-head of the Church” - over my dead body! ==