Mary replacing Holy Spirit?

[Hesychios]

dominicsavio:

Peace be with you!

I don’t think calling Mary the Mediatrix of All Graces takes the place of the role of the Holy Spirit at all. In another thread (I am not sure if I know how to post a link right, but it can be found here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=184169#post184169), some other posters and I dealt with the subject of Mary being Mediatrix. My posts are post numbers 44, 45 and 46 if I remember correctly. I posted several quotes from various saints applying this title to her. But I don’t think this title replaces the Holy Spirit with Mary at all. All people who have Marian devotion know quite well that she is “just” a creature in a sense. She is not God now, nor will she ever be. God is a Trinity of Persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. As some of the quotes in the thread I gave a link to point out though…Mary being Mediatrix is not by hers by nature because she is not God. But it is hers through grace and prayer according to the Will of God. Many, many saints have accepted this teaching. Mary is given that title in several papal encyclicals and Church documents…we must be careful not to reject what the Church teaches. But coming here so we can properly understand it is good too. I am really hoping that link works…as some of the quotes might help to bring light to this issue.

This is a good post, thank you.

I understand what you mean when you say that we must be careful not to reject what the church teaches, but on this one point: All people who have Marian devotion know quite well that she is “just” a creature in a sense. I would have to say that it would be nice if 100% of Marian devotees actually did know that and their thoughts and behavior reflected it.

I am afraid that is not so. As a Catholic of the street and in the workplace I encounter other Catholics who blur this distinction frequently. I also know many former Catholics who left over these issues, they also have blurred the distinction and it cost them their Faith. Perhaps it is due to the terminology, perhaps due to the way people express themselves, I don’t know. And that is really the point, we have a great many people born into the Faith and catechised through the normal process who don’t really know the difference and leave over it! Devout family members and fellow parishioners feel powerless to change their minds.

If this was such a cut and dried issue we would not have so much trouble in our own house.

So while I agree with your post in general, my advice is that we all watch more carefully that we do not cross that line, that the ones we know and love understand the objective Truth of our Faith, and that we do not cause unwelcome scandal to the church that will jeapordize souls. This I think was the probable context of the letter of Paul VI to Cardinal Suenens, a gentle reminder.

+T+
Michael

 

[Augustine]

Bill_A:

Not during Eucharistinc Adoration.

I do! I said a rosary before the Blessed Sacrament and she, as mother of the Lord, graciously pointed me to Him.

I don’t mean that I’m a super-Catholic, quite the contrary, I’m a shame to Catholicism, but faithful prayers to Mary always results in finding Jesus. What else could she do, the Spouse of the Holy Spirit?

 

[Scott_Waddell]

As one with much Marian devotion, I get a little peeved at posts about eyewitnessing excesses and abuses of devotion with no specifics. What exactly did they say/do that was over the top? I sometimes get asked to admit that abusive Marian devotion is possible, which I imagine it is, but since I have yet to see anyone give a specific example of abuse and exactly why it is so, this line of reasoning is a pointless abstract nothing-burger.

Scott

 

[hermit]

Is this a serious title? Nothing can replace the Holy Spirit

 

[dominicsavio]

Hesychios:

This is a good post, thank you.

I understand what you mean when you say that we must be careful not to reject what the church teaches, but on this one point: All people who have Marian devotion know quite well that she is “just” a creature in a sense. I would have to say that it would be nice if 100% of Marian devotees actually did know that and their thoughts and behavior reflected it.

I am afraid that is not so. As a Catholic of the street and in the workplace I encounter other Catholics who blur this distinction frequently. I also know many former Catholics who left over these issues, they also have blurred the distinction and it cost them their Faith. Perhaps it is due to the terminology, perhaps due to the way people express themselves, I don’t know. And that is really the point, we have a great many people born into the Faith and catechised through the normal process who don’t really know the difference and leave over it! Devout family members and fellow parishioners feel powerless to change their minds.

If this was such a cut and dried issue we would not have so much trouble in our own house.

So while I agree with your post in general, my advice is that we all watch more carefully that we do not cross that line, that the ones we know and love understand the objective Truth of our Faith, and that we do not cause unwelcome scandal to the church that will jeapordize souls. This I think was the probable context of the letter of Paul VI to Cardinal Suenens, a gentle reminder.

+T+
Michael

Thank you for your kind response. I enjoy speaking with people like you who can disagree and post your thoughts charitably. It helps these boards a lot when people can do that. My opinion is that True Devotion to Mary can never be “overdone” or “abused”. St. Maximilian Kolbe and St. Louis de Montfort would seem to have taken Marian devotion to the extreme…or at least as far as you could go. Yet, St. Louis de Montfort, in his book on True Devotion to Mary states

“10. And yet in truth we must still say with the saints: De Maria numquam satis : We have still not praised, exalted, honoured, loved and served Mary adequately. She is worthy of even more praise, respect, love and service.”

Abuses of devotion to Mary cannot be called “devotion” to Mary, because a true devotion to her always respects her place as a creature. So if someone either in belief or practice makes Mary to be “more” than she is, they in fact make her less and are not truly devoted to her. It is sad that some people try (I am sure with good intentions) to speak well of Mary…but putting her as an actual member of the Blessed Trinity is certainly not being devoted to her. It also as you pointed out, causes confusion and even scandal to some members in the Church. I really recommend prayerfully reading True Devotion to Mary if you haven’t before…it helped me a great deal in my spiritual life. In fact, it completely changed my life.