Mary - Revelation 12

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Hello,

I am in the process of learning about the Catholic faith - I went through RCIA last year. I have a question to you all about Mary and Revelation 12.

It seems that most Catholics I talk to and whose books I have read (Hahn) believe that Mary is the woman in Rev. 12 going through pain giving birth to Jesus. Growing up in a Evangelical church, I was taught the woman was Israel. The footnotes in my NAB state that the woman is most likely Israel.

My question is how can this woman be Mary when the Early Church Fathers wrote that Mary suffered no labor pains in giving birth to Jesus because she was full of grace?

Thank you in advance for your (name removed by moderator)ut.
 
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bstricklin:
Hello,

I am in the process of learning about the Catholic faith - I went through RCIA last year. I have a question to you all about Mary and Revelation 12.

It seems that most Catholics I talk to and whose books I have read (Hahn) believe that Mary is the woman in Rev. 12 going through pain giving birth to Jesus. Growing up in a Evangelical church, I was taught the woman was Israel. The footnotes in my NAB state that the woman is most likely Israel.

My question is how can this woman be Mary when the Early Church Fathers wrote that Mary suffered no labor pains in giving birth to Jesus because she was full of grace?

Thank you in advance for your (name removed by moderator)ut.
So goes apocaliptic writting,The fact is that this passage also refers to the church, and to some extent Israel, and while Mary may not have suffered labor pains at giving birth she suffered greatly watching the church being born, her other child…
 
Mary may or may not have suffered birth pains. There is no definitive teaching. The argument is supppose to be that the birth pains would be proof that Mary sinned. It is not proof. Reasoning like that would also conclude that Jesus sinned because he received John the Baptist’s baptism of repentence, and he also died, which is the result of sin brought on by Adam and Eve.

Also, it could very well be a symbolic refrence to suffering as mentioned above. There are scriptural examples of this. Paul for instance speaks of suffering birth pains:

Ga 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you

If the man child in Revelation 12 is Jesus, then the woman has to be Mary.

Why would she wear a crown? Because as the OT shows, every heir to the throne of David held his mother as queen. Jesus of course inherits that throne and nowhere does scripture do away with the queen mother. All those mothers of the heirs as queen point to something. God is showing us something with that.

God Bless,
Doug
 
Thanks for the responses. I had read the excerpts from the Early Church Fathers on Mary having no birth pains (Catholic.com) which led me to the question. I thought that would be considered definitive teaching.

Thanks again.
 
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bstricklin:
My question is how can this woman be Mary when the Early Church Fathers wrote that Mary suffered no labor pains in giving birth to Jesus…?
You are correct in stating that several Fathers, like Ambrose, believed that Mary did not have labor pains when Jesus was born. It should be noted that some of these Fathers did believe that the pains Mary escaped at birth she had at the Cross while she witnessed the Sacrifice (Ambrose, An Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith, Chapter XIV; Gregory of Nyssa, On the Song of Songs, 13; among others). For it was at the Sacrifice on the Cross that all men where drawn to Christ; men became sons of God. It was also when Christ gave Mary as our Mother (John 19:26, 27). Thus, this image of Mary in Revelation may be representing various aspects: the New Eve, the spiritual Motherhood, the Assumption, etc. At the Cross, Mary gave birth to the rest of the Body of Christ (the Church) in pain.

This passage of Revelation uses Greek terms that are not used elsewhere in the New Testament to describe labor pains. These pains reveal an intensity of suffering. The New Testament uses the metaphor of labor pains as an imagery for spiritual suffering (Matthew 24:3-14; Mark 13:5-13; Galatians 4:19; Romans 8:22; 1 Thessalonians 5:1-10). Thus some theologians have rightfully seen Mary in her aspect of Co-Redemptrix (New Eve) in this verse. Revelation 12 portrays Mary as the New Eve by reflecting back on Genesis 3. [Revelation 12 recalls the woman, the man, and the serpent which were all part of the first conflict. Instead of the human fall, Revelation 12 speaks of the angelic fall.] As it was the mission of the Son to suffer for the sins of mankind and offer Himself as a Sacrifice to appease His Father, so the New Eve’s function was to facilitate and aid the New Adam in His mission. This is further emphasized by the fact that the Son is described as an immolated lamb throughout the book of Revelation (Revelation 1:7; 5:6, 12; 13:8) which refers to His sacrificial act. Furthermore, this recalls to mind the prophecy of Simeon, in the book of Luke (2:35), which records that Mary would ‘also’ suffer with the Son.

The Fathers that believed Mary had no labor pains usually cited Isaiah 66:7, 8: "Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. Who hath heard such a thing? Who hath seen such things?” The passage would seem to suggest that pain could have come anytime after the birth (“before her pain came”) but not before the birth.

Although the Church has never pronounced the belief as dogma, some Popes have held it privately: Pope Alexander III in AD 1169 wrote “Mary conceived without shame, gave birth without pain, and has departed from earth without undergoing the corruption of the tomb, thus proving - according to the word of the angel - that she was full of grace and nothing less” (Denzinger 748).
 
Mathetes, Incredible post!! I’ve been searching for answers on this for quite a while!

-Ric
 
Hello,

I am in the process of learning about the Catholic faith - I went through RCIA last year. I have a question to you all about Mary and Revelation 12.

It seems that most Catholics I talk to and whose books I have read (Hahn) believe that Mary is the woman in Rev. 12 going through pain giving birth to Jesus. Growing up in a Evangelical church, I was taught the woman was Israel. The footnotes in my NAB state that the woman is most likely Israel.

My question is how can this woman be Mary when the Early Church Fathers wrote that Mary suffered no labor pains in giving birth to Jesus because she was full of grace?

Thank you in advance for your (name removed by moderator)ut.
Rev 12:

It refers to the childbirth of Mary on Calvary, where she is constituted “truly the mother of the members of Christ”, as St. Augustine affirms (quoted by Lumen Gentuium, no. 53), then we too can understand with other exegetes, among them D. Squillaci, that to our Lady “is to be ascribed a double childbirth: one natural and virginal, by which without pain or injury of any kind, she begot the Son of God the physical Christ: the other spiritual, by means of which on Calvary, uniting her sufferings to those of the Redeemer, she begot the Mystical Body of Christ.

And a sword shall pierce your heart Luke 2:35

Thus, this passage (Rev12;2) does not show that the woman is experiencing physical labor pains. Instead, it seems as though John is speaking of a double birth. Now, at Calvary, where Mary was there whereas all the apostles (except John) fled Jesus, she went into untold suffering while she watched Jesus get tortured, and hung on the cross. Remember, Jesus said ‘Woman’ to Mary, in Jn. 19:26. Mary is undergoing suffering at that point. Thus, there is a double birth pointed to in Revelation 12:2. The pain she is suffering here, is not indicating she was suffering pain in birth, but the suffering at seeing her son’s pain and suffering on Calvary. This will eventually point to his resurrection and ascencion into heaven (Rev. 12:5).

matt1618.freeyellow.com/woman.html
 
I used to attend a large Evangelical Church and one Christmas the sermon was on Mary in Revelation 12.
 
I highly recommend checking this link out of the Aquinas Study Bible, which gives both interpretations of Mary and the Church from 2000 years of commentators sites.google.com/site/aquinasstudybible/home/revelation/rev-1/rev-2/rev-3/rev-4/rev-5/rev-6/rev-7/rev-8/rev-9/rev-10/rev-11/rev-12

But as for the birth pains, here is comments on that

footnote from Aquinas Study Bible…

in pain: She suffers because the “ancient serpent” wishes to devour “the child”. (John Paul II MULIERIS DIGNITATEM 30) or blushing before Joseph prior to the angel revealing to him about the conception. (Oecumenius)

My footnote…

First, John says, 12:2 And being with child, she cried travailing in birth, and was in pain to be delivered. Some Catholic theologians have avoided interpreting this as Mary because according to Catholic Tradition Mary was preserved from original sin (CCC 491) and did not suffer the pain of child birth, which became a curse at the Fall in Genesis (Gen 3:16). But Mary was not suffering from physical pain here, but emotional pain. Why was she in such emotional stress and pain? Two verses down is the answer, “And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to bear a child, that he might devour her child when she brought it forth (v.4).” It is understandable why Mary was in anguish because she had all the powers of evil waiting to kill her Son. (John Paul II MULIERIS DIGNITATEM 30) For Scripture also says, “And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had borne the male child.” (v13) Satan being thrown down to earth is figurative of him falling from heavenly rank to an earthly rank, no longer having his great angelic status. (Oecumenius) The Incarnation of the Lord was just the beginning of Satan’s great fall, but the Crucifixion brought it more fully. The Lord mentions the fall of Satan’s rank when He said, “I was watching as Satan fell like lightning from heaven." (Lk 10:18)

So, at the birth of Christ, Satan is in the midst waiting to kill the baby Jesus, and Mary knows that the presence of evil is near, and that the Devil is going to make a great effort to prevent the Savior of the world from making it past childhood. The Devil, though close enough to have Mary very stressed in the stable where the Lord was born, he is not able to harm the Lord himself. The presence of so many heavenly angels in around Bethlehem was likely a deterrent to Satan, so Satan plots to have the Lord killed by the hands of Herod. He stirs up Herod so that he would be “in a furious rage” (Mt. 2:16) in order to try to kill the child Jesus.
 
Hello,

I am in the process of learning about the Catholic faith - I went through RCIA last year. I have a question to you all about Mary and Revelation 12.

It seems that most Catholics I talk to and whose books I have read (Hahn) believe that Mary is the woman in Rev. 12 going through pain giving birth to Jesus. Growing up in a Evangelical church, I was taught the woman was Israel. The footnotes in my NAB state that the woman is most likely Israel.

My question is how can this woman be Mary when the Early Church Fathers wrote that Mary suffered no labor pains in giving birth to Jesus because she was full of grace?

Thank you in advance for your (name removed by moderator)ut.
…if Mary is not the woman in Apocalypse, when will Israel accept none Jews as Christ’s brothers and when will Israel accept Christ as the Child God?

There are many passages that seem conflicting or not quite on the money… but consider the fact that Jesus, when near death, did not give Israel to John as his mother nor did He give John to Israel as its son… now revisit Apocalypse 12… when did Israel travel to Egypt and stay there for a period of time… only before the deliverance (Moses), right? Who, then, travels from Nazareth to Bethlehem if not the Christ’s Mom and then flees to Egypt? …and did Israel give Birth to the Christ or put Him to Death?

Yes, Salvation does come from the Jews… but not for their acceptance of the Messiah but in spite of it!

Maran atha!

Angel
 
I’ve also read about the following point being raised about

gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said,** I will greatly multiply **thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Sorrow /pain during labour was increased due to the fall not introduced.
 
Mary gave birth to Christ in Palestine 2000 years ago, and in so doing made Christ present in the world.

Mary’s motherhood began the moment she gave consent to the angel and became the Mother of God, continued as she stood under the cross, and continues until the end of time.

old.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt3art9p6.shtml

Revelation is a highly spiritual book, and has to be read as such. It is full of imagery and allegory. It’s also at the end of the Bible for a reason - it is assumed that we have read and understand everything that comes before it.

Mary continues to “Wail aloud in pain” as she struggles to make Christ present in the world and in each of us.

-Tim-
 
I’ve also read about the following point being raised about

gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said,** I will greatly multiply **thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Sorrow /pain during labour was increased due to the fall not introduced.
Excellent point!

Maran atha!

Angel
 
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