Mary - sinner - Romans 3?

[CEM5]

Well, God the Holy Spirit dwells in believers, too (1 Corinthians 6 v19, for example. God hates sin, but He is willing and able to live in us, and work through us, even though we still sin. How does that work? I have no idea. For me, this is part of the mystery of the Incarnation. God was willing and able to become a baby, and be born of an ordinary, human mother. (Yes, OK, so Mary was extraordinary in terms of her obedience and love for God, but I hope you can see what I’m saying…) For Jesus to be fully human, he had to be born as we are all born, to imperfect, human parents. If Mary were this sinless, perfect person, that would hardly make for a normal upbringing, would it? All through the Bible, we see God do extraordinary things through ordinary, flawed people. King David the adulterer; S/Paul, the persecutor of the faithful… why does Mary have to be any different?.

Hi Godith,

Eve was created without sin and perfect. However, she said “no” to being obedient to God. Therefore, we see that regardless of being without sin, one can still be disobedient to God (this is what “free will” is all about) and then become a sinner.

Mary, described as the ‘second Eve’, was also without sin, and perfect. The difference between her and Eve, is that Mary said “YES” (the great Fiat) to God, and all throughout her life, continued to say “yes” to being obedient to God. The Bible describes Mary as being “full of grace”.

Mary had to be sinless and pure because this is where the Lord, our God would dwell, and God cannot dwell in a place where the contamination of the stain of original sin is. Mary is also described as the “Ark of the Covenant” because she held in her womb the Word of God and the Mannah from Heaven (Jesus - our Bread of life). The orginal wooden, man-made, Ark of the Covenant contained the Word of God (the Commandments/Laws) and some mannah from the dessert. No one was allowed to touch this man-made, wooden Ark or they would die (as was demonstrated when the hapless Uzzah (Exodus 25) touched the ark.

Now Mary was more precious than a wooden man-made ark, for she was created by God to carry in her virginal, sin-free womb, the incarnate God, Jesus. That is also why Joseph protected her and Jesus, and Mary remained a virgin. No one could “touch” Mary – she belonged to God.

Blessings,
CEM

P.S. – Just because Mary remained sinless, did not detract from her humaness! She was a human being just like any one of us. She experienced pain, joy, death just as all humans do. Furthermore, when we are baptized, we are then pure and sinfree, yet this state does not mean we are not fully human anymore. We remain human, of course, but we ‘choose’ to sin thereafter. God understands our propensity to fall from grace (sin) and therefore He gave us the wonderful Sacrament of Reconciliation so we may become sinfree once again (and again and again…) should we repent and truly feel sorry for our sins.

 

[RyanK]

Publisher;8332745:

I wouldn’t think so, and thinking about this, if Mary had sin, could Jesus be born of a sinful woman ? I’ll say yes,(wouldn’t make Him sinful) we can’t put limits on what God can or cannot do. And if that were true, then Mary could be born of parents who were tainted by original sin. I’ll stick with the Angels greeting " Full of Grace " & were I believe cohabitation of Grace and sin don’t get along.

A child can be born of a woman who is a mass murderer, doesn’t make the child complicit in her sin…

I was looking through the posts waiting for this answer and I’m glad someone made it! Mary was greeted by the angel as full of grace. One cannot be full of grace and have sin as well.

 

[JohnVIII]

Can someone clean (Jesus) come from someone unclean (Mary) ?

How about this question: ‘Can someone divine (Jesus) come from someone human (Mary)?’

To that logic most non-catholics will simply say: Jesus was also fully God, unlike every other human, making Him the exception to the rule. Why His mother couldn’t be the exception to the rule as well, makes no sense to me, at all.

Dear Brother joe370, perhaps you didn’t mean to imply that Mary was divine like Her Son is, but, obviously, if Mary is likewise divine, that would easily explain why She is sinless, wouldn’t it?

I suppose few people would be unafraid to go so far as to say that Mary is divine, but as far as basing the idea that the Blessed Virgin is a sinner on a verse of Scripture that says that “all have sinned” doesn’t work unless you are already predisposed to believing that Mary is a sinner and you just want a proof-text. Consider what Jesus said in this verse of Scripture:

" Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God " (Matthew 19:17)

Now the very same ones that want to find a verse to show that Mary is a sinner will NOT want to use a verse such as this one to show that Jesus is ‘not good’ or a sinner, or that He is not God! Not unless they are Jehovah’s Witnesses, then they might, but a main-stream Protestant believes Jesus is God and will have an answer to explain any verse that might seem to say otherwise.

Scripture is too often used only to prove something you already believe or disprove something you already disbelieve. To actually use it to find the truth about something without any preconceived ideas is harder to do.

I believe the Holy Virgin Mary is sinless. Jesus as true God and true man started at His conception. That means that the Holy Virgin had God Himself in Her womb for 9 months! personally, I find it hard to not believe that at least her womb (where Jesus obtained His flesh) during those 9 months was true God (by the Holy Spirit ‘Ruah Elohiem’ feminine in Hebrew) and true woman. If the Holy Church taught that Mary was the incarnation of the Holy Spirit I would have no trouble accepting that! (That would put a new perspective on the title ‘Mother of God’ as well as ‘Son of God’ too!) But at least the Church does teach that She is ‘more honorably that the Cherubim and beyond compare more glorious than the Seraphim’! So, at the very least She is surly without sin!

 

[Publisher]

hawkeye;8334405:

I was looking through the posts waiting for this answer and I’m glad someone made it! Mary was greeted by the angel as full of grace. One cannot be full of grace and have sin as well.

Friend,

I don’t know how my name became attached to this post…but I asked the question concerned Mary’s parents…I believe hawkeye is the author of the post you attach my name to…I don’t necessarily disagree with his statement…but the statement is not mine.

 

[joe370]

JohnVIII, you said:

Dear Brother joe370, perhaps you didn’t mean to imply that Mary was divine like Her Son is, but, obviously, if Mary is likewise divine, that would easily explain why She is sinless, wouldn’t it?

Mary is not divine; Mary is human. Actually my point was to contrast Jesus (God) - and the mere creature, Mary.

 

[joe370]

St. Paul was speaking in terms of hyperbole to make a point. Just as parents will at times say to their children: I told you a million times…

Or some people may say: All teenagers are troublemakers…

We know that this is not true.

Is a baby a sinner? Is an infant/toddler a sinner? Of course not.

Mary, just as all of us, had to be saved of the stain of original sin just as all of us have to be by Jesus’ saving grace through the Sacrament of baptism.

(There are three ways: Baptism of desire, baptism by water, and baptism by blood)

At the moment of Mary’s conception, she was cleansed of the “sin of Adam”: this is what is known as the Immaculate conception of Mary.

An analogy used to describe this concept is as follows:

Think of original sin as a pit, that we have all fallen into. Jesus comes along and grabs our outstretched hands and lifts us out of this pit, so we are freed now from this imprisoning pit.

Now, Mary is walking along and is about to fall into that pit, but before she reaches it, Jesus saves her from falling into it by preventing her from taking another step. She is saved, but has not fallen into it as all of us has. She still needed the saving grace of Jesus.

Blessings,
CEM

Agreed…

 

[KathleenGee]

Good reflections…

God created all things GOOD, including man and woman.

 

[joe370]

Godith;8334368]I’m not Bible scholar, but this is what I think. Another poster has mentioned this idea, as well, so I’m not being original. If you look at the context of Romans 5, the passage is contrasting the first Adam with the Second Adam, Jesus. In the context of that argument, it doesn’t make sense to talk about the first Eve. The passage is not denying her existence or involvement, it’s just not mentioning her because she’s not pertinent to the point the writer is making.

That’s actually pretty good point.

The verse in Romans 3 is in a section that is talking about how everyone, Jew and Gentile, is in need of salvation - everyone needs the grace that is only available through Christ, and keeping the law isn’t enough. Could Mary be excluded from that ‘everyone’? She * could*. Personally I think it’s unlikely, because the whole passage is about the universal need for salvation through faith in Jesus.

Of course Jesus is the savior of his mother…Could Jesus preserve His mother from the stain of sin, if He wanted to? Of course. Would He, yes, in IMHO. He would protect His mother from the enemy of the human race, that being Satan…

Well, God the Holy Spirit dwells in believers, too (1 Corinthians 6 v19, for example. God hates sin, but He is willing and able to live in us, and work through us, even though we still sin. How does that work? I have no idea. For me, this is part of the mystery of the Incarnation. God was willing and able to become a baby, and be born of an ordinary, human mother. (Yes, OK, so Mary was extraordinary in terms of her obedience and love for God, but I hope you can see what I’m saying…) For Jesus to be fully human, he had to be born as we are all born, to imperfect, human parents. If Mary were this sinless, perfect person, that would hardly make for a normal upbringing, would it? All through the Bible, we see God do extraordinary things through ordinary, flawed people. King David the adulterer; S/Paul, the persecutor of the faithful… why does Mary have to be any different?

Sinless and perfect are not synonymous. There were many things, no doubt, that Mary was imperfect at, such as math science etc…LOL…

I doubt there would be anything normal about God’s upbring. More like supernatural.

So you are suggesting that Mary did not have to be sinless for God to become one with her sinful flesh? Agreed. But for Jesus to be fully human, he had to be born of sinful flesh? Seems like a double standard to me, but if that’s what you believe, that’s cool…

Mary doesn’t have to be different, and if you would rather believe that Jesus would not protect His mother from the dominion of Satan by preserving her from original sin, thereby neutralizing Satan’s attack on her, I certainly won’t get in your way. I am of the opinion however, that the relationship between Jesus and His mother Mary was a tad more intimate and involved than His relationship with David or Saul, but I"ll leave it up to Jesus’ church to decide, in the end.

Scripture isn’t always cut and dried, no. If it were, we would all agree on every point, and this forum would be pretty quiet. lol

We non-Catholics learn to live with a degree of uncertainty about things. Perhaps Catholics do too? You’ll have to tell me. God is so far above us, we can’t expect to know and understand everything about Him and His ways. I trust that God will tell me if I’m seriously off track, and I pray that I’ll listen.

Well, it seems that every Christian, be it catholic or protestant, wants to trust that God will tell him/her if he/she is seriously off track but not all protestants and catholics can be right, which is why I believe that Jesus guides His church leadership into all truth, but that’s just me…

Thanks for the feedback friend…

 

[queenofpeace]

THIIS IS FROM A 2008 THREAD: Re: Ag_nots Catholic Scriptural Challenge - just ONE proven example wins!! post # 254

Ro 3:23 -for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

Earlier in the chapter, Paul says as it is written in other words, he is quoting the Old Testament. Psalm 14 to be precise. Now, look at that scripture:

1 For the leader. Of David. 2 Fools say in their hearts, “There is no God.” Their deeds are loathsome and corrupt; not one does what is right.
2
The LORD looks down from heaven upon the human race, To see if even one is wise, if even one seeks God.
3
All have gone astray; all alike are perverse. Not one does what is right, not even one. 4
Will these evildoers never learn? They devour my people as they devour bread; they do not call upon the LORD.
5
They have good reason, then, to fear; God is with the company of the just.
6
They would crush the hopes of the poor, but the poor have the LORD as their refuge.

Now, here the psalmist, which Paul is quoting says very clearly, as Paul does, ALL. But does all mean all??? How can it when a few lines along we read MY PEOPLE. That is, God’s people. So the all, is not actually all, but those people NOT of God’s people. The Evil Doers. Otherwise, if the all meant all people, that is every single solitary person, then who are the ‘‘company of the just’’, or in the RSV_CE version, the generation of the righteous???

So, now you know that all doesnt always mean actually all, where do we go from here.

The wages of sin is death. If you have sin, you will die. Yes? Are there people in the Bible who we are told did Not die? IF they didnt die, does that mean they did not collect the wages of sin?

every time my born-again sister throw this bible verse (R0 3:23) in my face, am stupified, now i know better!.. & thanks to Ag_not…BTW, where is she?

 

[joe370]

Hey queenofpeace…

Now, here the psalmist, which Paul is quoting says very clearly, as Paul does, ALL. But does all mean all??? How can it when a few lines along we read MY PEOPLE. That is, God’s people. So the all, is not actually all, but those people NOT of God’s people. The Evil Doers. Otherwise, if the all meant all people, that is every single solitary person, then who are the ‘‘company of the just’’, or in the RSV_CE version, the generation of the righteous???

So, now you know that all doesnt always mean actually all, where do we go from here.

The wages of sin is death. If you have sin, you will die. Yes? Are there people in the Bible who we are told did Not die? IF they didnt die, does that mean they did not collect the wages of sin?

Excellent point!

Using the same “all” logic, that most protestants employ to prove Mary’s sinful nature, one is left to believe, by the same token, that the psalmist is claiming that there wasn’t even one wise person doing what was right in his day; not even one person in his day seeking God; not even one person NOT going astray; not even one person NOT behaving perversely.

 

[hawkeye]

Hi Godith,

Eve was created without sin and perfect. However, she said “no” to being obedient to God. Therefore, we see that regardless of being without sin, one can still be disobedient to God (this is what “free will” is all about) and then become a sinner.

Mary, described as the ‘second Eve’, was also without sin, and perfect. The difference between her and Eve, is that Mary said “YES” (the great Fiat) to God, and all throughout her life, continued to say “yes” to being obedient to God. The Bible describes Mary as being “full of grace”.

Mary had to be sinless and pure because this is where the Lord, our God would dwell, and God cannot dwell in a place where the contamination of the stain of original sin is. Mary is also described as the “Ark of the Covenant” because she held in her womb the Word of God and the Mannah from Heaven (Jesus - our Bread of life). The orginal wooden, man-made, Ark of the Covenant contained the Word of God (the Commandments/Laws) and some mannah from the dessert. No one was allowed to touch this man-made, wooden Ark or they would die (as was demonstrated when the hapless Uzzah (Exodus 25) touched the ark.

Now Mary was more precious than a wooden man-made ark, for she was created by God to carry in her virginal, sin-free womb, the incarnate God, Jesus. That is also why Joseph protected her and Jesus, and Mary remained a virgin. No one could “touch” Mary – she belonged to God.

Blessings,
CEM

P.S. – Just because Mary remained sinless, did not detract from her humaness! She was a human being just like any one of us. She experienced pain, joy, death just as all humans do. Furthermore, when we are baptized, we are then pure and sinfree, yet this state does not mean we are not fully human anymore. We remain human, of course, but we ‘choose’ to sin thereafter. God understands our propensity to fall from grace (sin) and therefore He gave us the wonderful Sacrament of Reconciliation so we may become sinfree once again (and again and again…) should we repent and truly feel sorry for our sins.

 

[JohnVIII]

P.S. – Just because Mary remained sinless, did not detract from her humaness! She was a human being just like any one of us. She experienced pain, joy, death just as all humans do. Furthermore, when we are baptized, we are then pure and sinfree, yet this state does not mean we are not fully human anymore. We remain human, of course, but we ‘choose’ to sin thereafter. God understands our propensity to fall from grace (sin) and therefore He gave us the wonderful Sacrament of Reconciliation so we may become sinfree once again (and again and again…) should we repent and truly feel sorry for our sins.

You know, the Second Adam (Jesus) “remained sinless” and he too “was a human being just like any one of us”, but was also true God (the Son). Why couldn’t the Second Eve (Mary), who was sinless and human, likewise be true God (the Holy Spirit)? Could it be because that would mess up the filioque (i.e. that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son), instead it would have to be that the Son proceeds from the Father and the Holy Spirit!

I’m just going to say it strait out: I know I don’t have support for this in either Eastern Orthodoxy or Catholicism but I believe Mary is both human and divine in the same way that Jesus is. Truly the Mother of God!

 

[CEM5]

You know, the Second Adam (Jesus) “remained sinless” and he too “was a human being just like any one of us”, but was also true God (the Son). Why couldn’t the Second Eve (Mary), who was sinless and human, likewise be true God (the Holy Spirit)? Could it be because that would mess up the filioque (i.e. that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son), instead it would have to be that the Son proceeds from the Father and the Holy Spirit!

I’m just going to say it strait out: I know I don’t have support for this in either Eastern Orthodoxy or Catholicism but I believe Mary is both human and divine in the same way that Jesus is. Truly the Mother of God!

Hello JohnVIII,

The difference between Mary and Jesus is that Mary is not God. She is a human being born of a human mother and a human father from the loving, sexual union of her parents. She has only one nature: human nature, just as we all do.

Jesus, on the other hand, has two natures: human nature and the divine nature (because He is God incarnate). Jesus was not conceived by a human father and a human mother, and Mary did not have a sexual union.

By the power of the Holy Spirit, Mary “conceived” Jesus. The second person of the Trinity (the Word) took on the human form in the womb of Mary, and is our Emmanuel (means: God with us), and is called Jesus (“God of salvation”).

Because God came to us in the human form of Jesus, Jesus is fully divine yet also fully human. Jesus is still God, but God the Son, who is still with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. Never apart, always “one God” in the Trinity. Mary is not part of this. She is the “spouse” of the Holy Spirit of God, and is a Saint in heaven. She is our pure, unblemished mother, and Queen in heaven, by the fact that her Son, Jesus, is King of kings.

One day, we too will be in heaven with Mary, the Saints, God’s holy angels and of course with God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit), but we humans do not become “divine” or “gods”.

Hope that makes some sense

blessings,\CEM

 

[JohnVIII]

Hello JohnVIII,

The difference between Mary and Jesus is that Mary is not God. She is a human being born of a human mother and a human father from the loving, sexual union of her parents. She has only one nature: human nature, just as we all do.

Jesus, on the other hand, has two natures: human nature and the divine nature (because He is God incarnate). Jesus was not conceived by a human father and a human mother, and Mary did not have a sexual union.

By the power of the Holy Spirit, Mary “conceived” Jesus. The second person of the Trinity (the Word) took on the human form in the womb of Mary, and is our Emmanuel (means: God with us), and is called Jesus (“God of salvation”).

Because God came to us in the human form of Jesus, Jesus is fully divine yet also fully human. Jesus is still God, but God the Son, who is still with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. Never apart, always “one God” in the Trinity. Mary is not part of this. She is the “spouse” of the Holy Spirit of God, and is a Saint in heaven. She is our pure, unblemished mother, and Queen in heaven, by the fact that her Son, Jesus, is King of kings.

One day, we too will be in heaven with Mary, the Saints, God’s holy angels and of course with God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit), but we humans do not become “divine” or “gods”.

Hope that makes some sense

blessings,\CEM

Blessings to you too!

Of course ‘that makes some sense’. You repeat ‘basic orthodoxy 101’. I’ve been Eastern Orthodox for over 20 years. There are, however, maybe about 3 things that I’ve came to eventually believe that are not in perfect alignment with orthodoxy. And of course I can understand why you would be afraid to go so far with and understanding of the Most Holy Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary to actually give Her every honor that you would likewise give our Lord Jesus Christ. But at least understand that without doing so She cannot be the ‘Second Eve’ just as Jesus is the ‘Second Adam’. If the correlation falls short with respect to Her divinity then there is no real correlation; rather, there is only a cafeteria style, pick and choose what best fits what you what to believe, set of beliefs that under some sort of official sanction is called ‘orthodox’.

Thank you for hearing what I had to say! God bless!

 

[CEM5]

Blessings to you too!

Of course ‘that makes some sense’. You repeat ‘basic orthodoxy 101’. I’ve been Eastern Orthodox for over 20 years. There are, however, maybe about 3 things that I’ve came to eventually believe that are not in perfect alignment with orthodoxy. And of course I can understand why you would be afraid to go so far with and understanding of the Most Holy Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary to actually give Her every honor that you would likewise give our Lord Jesus Christ. But at least understand that without doing so She cannot be the ‘Second Eve’ just as Jesus is the ‘Second Adam’. If the correlation falls short with respect to Her divinity then there is no real correlation; rather, there is only a cafeteria style, pick and choose what best fits what you what to believe, set of beliefs that under some sort of official sanction is called ‘orthodox’.

Thank you for hearing what I had to say! God bless!

Hello again JohnVIII,

I would like to clarify that I am not afraid I have an understanding of who Mary is, and of who our Lord Jesus is.

Mary is not a goddess, hence, she is not divine. She was not the “Alpha and Omega”, nor was she the “I AM”. Only God is described as such, in the Bible, and because Jesus is God, He too, can lay claim to these titles.

From the beginning, we only give all honor and glory to God, which in the Latin vernacular, is “Latria”. The honor and veneration we give to the Saints is “dulia” whereas with Mary, being Mother of God and ever virgin, is given “hyper-dulia”. We honor and venerate all, however, the greatest is reserved for God. No one is greater than God, including Mary. No one created God, however, Mary was created just as all humans were/are created beings. God is the creator of all. Jesus is God incarnate, therefore Jesus is honored above Mary.

Because of Jesus’ human nature, He is “son of man” and as such, He came to redeem us from the sin of Adam. Adam turned his back on God and disobeyed thereby bringing death into the world and our fall from grace with God. In contrast, Jesus proved His fidelity and obedience to God the Father, thereby defeating death and restoring our grace with God. Jesus is called the “second Adam” to describe this – He is not literally the ‘second Adam’.

Likewise with Eve and Mary. Eve basically said “no” to God whereas Mary said “yes”. Again, we know what ensued, and Mary being called the “second Eve” doesn’t literally mean that: it is used to describe the events that unfolded with her obedience. What the first Eve and first Adam brought was death, separation from God (fall from grace and no entry into heaven), and the stain of original sin which no one could ever be rid of except for Jesus redeeming us. Because this sin was committed by humans, and it is an eternal sin, only one who was both human and eternal could right the wrong done by Adam and Eve: Only Jesus, God incarnate, fit that bill. Nonetheless, God needed a pure, obedient woman who would say “yes” and be the vessel to bear Jesus. Mary’s “yes” allowed God to become human yet remain divine: two natures in Mary’s son – human through her flesh, (son of man), yet divine because He is still God – albeit, the Second Person of the Trinity, (Son of God),

So, that is why God is given all glory and honor (in the “latria” description), and Mary is venerated and honored more greatly than other Saints, yet in a lesser degree than God (the “hyper-dulia” mode), whereas the Saints are honored and venerated because we know they are in heaven with God, yet are not given the higher veneration and honor as that of Mary (thus the “dulia” mode). Our English language has its limitations in describing certain situations, materials, and other things, unfortunately.

It would be heretical to ascribe the same divine status onto Mary as that of God. Even with her elevated status, she still remains only a created being.

blessings,
CEM

 

[joe370]

Blessings to you too!

Of course ‘that makes some sense’. You repeat ‘basic orthodoxy 101’. I’ve been Eastern Orthodox for over 20 years…

So, if you have been eastern orthodox for 20 years, then you must adhere to their teachings - correct? Or, are you a lone ranger, which would make sense in view of your take on Mary as being equal to God. I must admit you are the only Christian that I have ever encountered that suggested that God’s creation was in fact the creator…

To each his own I guess…

 

[hawkeye]

Hello JohnVIII,

The difference between Mary and Jesus is that Mary is not God. She is a human being born of a human mother and a human father from the loving, sexual union of her parents. She has only one nature: human nature, just as we all do.

Jesus, on the other hand, has two natures: human nature and the divine nature (because He is God incarnate). Jesus was not conceived by a human father and a human mother, and Mary did not have a sexual union.

Exactly, this clinches it for me, plus Adam and Eve had only a human nature, but sinless all the same…doesn’t make them divine.

 

[JohnVIII]

Here is a link to the Pope’s thoughts about Mary and Pentecost followed by three pictures of icons that depict Mary as the center of outpouring of the Holy Spirit, then compare these to three icons of Jesus at Transfiguration. Jesus showed His divine nature at Transfiguration. What did Mary show of Herself at Pentecost? Consider the fact that in Hebrew the Holy Spirit is Female (Ruach Elohim)!

No Church without Pentecost no Pentecost without Mary Pope says

View attachment 11626

View attachment 11627

View attachment 11628

View attachment 11629

View attachment 11630

View attachment 11631

 

[joe370]

Here is a link to the Pope’s thoughts about Mary and Pentecost followed by three pictures of icons that depict Mary as the center of outpouring of the Holy Spirit, then compare these to three icons of Jesus at Transfiguration. Jesus showed His divine nature at Transfiguration. What did Mary show of Herself at Pentecost? Consider the fact that in Hebrew the Holy Spirit is Female (Ruach Elohim)!

No Church without Pentecost no Pentecost without Mary Pope says

View attachment 11626

View attachment 11627

View attachment 11628

View attachment 11629

View attachment 11630

View attachment 11631

That link merely illustrates one immutable fact: without Mary’s fiat there would be no Jesus and therefore no Pentecost.

The pics merely illustrate the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

Do you see Mary as part of God’s divinity? I only ask because your profile says that you are Orthodox in agreement with Alexandria, and the Orthodox do not see our mother Mary as part of God’s divinity.

 

[RobbyS]

Personally, I try always to keep in mind that I could be wrong.

Including Mary in the Romans 3 passage is sensible, because it’s the simplest interpretation. I’ve been taught that, when trying to understand Scripture, you should look at what’s simplest and most straight-forward first. So, when Romans 3 v23 says ‘all have sinned’, I would say it means ‘all’, as in everyone (excluding Jesus, because we know from elsewhere that He was without sin). The reason I wouldn’t exclude Mary from that is because I don’t see anything elsewhere in Scripture that would lead me to believe she is excluded. You use Scripture to interprete Scripture, so any conclusions have to be compatible with the whole of the Bible. If Mary was totally without sin, I would expect that to be mentioned somewhere in the Bible, but as far as I know, it is not. I am willing to be corrected, of course, so feel free.

You have to consider the context of the letter. Paul is talking about the efficacy of the Law. So he is asserting all men have sinned including the jews who observe the law but hqve no faith in Jesus. Iy says absolutely nothing about Mary as an individual except that as a Jewess she needed salvation. From elsewhere. however, we know that she had an extraordinary faith. If we hold the first two chapters of Luke to be true, then her relationship with God was unique and her holiness manifest.