Mary - sinner - Romans 3?

[joe370]

Hey Richard Kastner, I couldn’t get a response from RevG so I thought I would ask you. He said that "all’ in Romans 3 can only mean “all.” Let’s apply that same logic to the following verses:

Did all the world go after Christ in the following verse?

“… the whole world has gone after him” John 12:19

Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in the Jordan?

“All of Judea, including all the people of Jerusalem, went out to see and hear John. And when they confessed their sins, he baptized them in the Jordan River.” Mark

Did Caesar tax the people from India, China, and South America in the following verse? Matthew 2:3

“And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.” Luke 2:1

“When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him”

That would be every single person in Jerusalem if “all” means all inclusive.

What about: “ … Then all the disciples left him [Jesus] and fled.” Matthew 26:56

John followed Christ all the way to the cross.

Did the whole world lieth in the wicked one in the following verse?

“Ye are of God, little children”, and the whole world lieth in the wicked one”. 1 John 5:19

Romans 15: “I myself am satisfied about you, my brethren, that you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, and able to instruct one another.”

Of course only God has “all” knowledge.

If “all” in the preceding verses allow for exceptions then surely “all” in Romans 3:23 can allow for exceptions too - yes, no, maybe?

Your thoughts friend?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Hey Richard Kastner, I couldn’t get a response from RevG so I thought I would ask you. He said that "all’ in Romans 3 can only mean “all.” Let’s apply that same logic to the following verses:

If “all” in the preceding verses allow for exceptions then surely “all” in Romans 3:23 can allow for exceptions too - yes, no, maybe?

Your thoughts friend?

As you have pointed out there probably is exceptions to the “all” in Rom.3:23, but according to Rom.8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Mary was not one of them.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

The nascent Church in apostolic time interpreted the OT in light of sacred Tradition.

What would this tradition be?

There is nothing explicit in the Hebrew Bible or the Septuagint concerning the divinity of Christ. Thus the Bible isn’t the sole medium of divine revelation, being formally insufficient, although materially sufficient.

The apostles had Jesus right there in front of them. They didn’t need to be told by a " sacred Tradition" That He was God. He manifested that to them daily.

The Holy Spirit declares to the Church what is a true revelation from God through both the written and unwritten word of God: the deposit of faith.

The unwritten word would be revealed to men through His Spirit.

1Cor.2
9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Meanwhile exegetes don’t comprise the final teaching authority of the Church. The divine mandate rests with the appointed teaching authority - the Magisterium - with the guaranty of the Holy Spirit.

Who is this magisterium and how do you know that the divine mandate rests with them?

The Bible does say that Mary was “full of grace” (Lk 1:28) and at total enmity with Satan and his offspring - sin and the corruption of death - together with her divine Son (Gen 3:15).

Gen. 3:15 is a reference to God’s church, the Jews in the OT and spiritual Jews in the NT. Rom.9
4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

[KathleenGee]

Mary was conceived…full of grace, not sin.

No where in the Bible does it say Mary was a sinner or indicate to us that she was a sinner.

The Magisterium is the teaching power and transmission of grace…that comes from Christ, that insures and continues on the true understanding the Word of God made flesh by Christ Himself, given by the Apostles.

So…every inspired Word of God is working for a specific mission…that the condition of broken mankind is waiting for the Savior to redeem them. And we found out, it wasn’t for political or triumphant reasons, or for a particular country to dominate…but for all mankind to be delivered from the bondage of sin.

Subsequently, every story, every event is serving for the revelation of the great event of Jesus Christ…who freed us from sin, that only came about through one human means…the Blessed Mother…all generations shall call her blessed except those who do not see her mission as well.

The Eucharist reflects the reality that Christ received His flesh and blood from His mother…we cannot but help and reflect on her.

You can’t say the Bible has it all. It doesn’t. It shows only the beginning of the earliest Church. After that, it is the Church itself who continues to document the lives of all believers through the sacraments and witness they have given to their own faith communities. We have feast days of saints…the first several hundreds of years were the martyrs…and finally others were included who did not die as such.

St. Francis of Assisi is one of the greatest of all saints, yet his presence of God could not be compared to Mary’s. She prayed with the Apostles, travelled with them and advised them…why would she withhold anything about her Son from them…sharing insights…her prayers far greater than all the angels and saints combined…because she was conceived without sin.

Only a recipient of the Eucharist can understand this reality of Mary. Only those in communion with the Catholic and Orthodox Church can recognize the witness of the saints and their contributions to sanctification and the spiritual life. It has been only after much reflection and debate among fellow believers, that the Holy Spirit has guided us to understand that Mary was truly conceived without sin…and she was redeemed at her conception, her entire being free and ready to say ‘Yes’ to the Lord.

We can reflect and relate to her in the Eucharist, because indeed we are receiving the flesh and blood she gave Christ.

When you have only the Bible --without church and witness of fidelity for 2,000 years, there is only so much people can explain to you. You can only draw back on great people of faith in the Old Testament–BC, before Christ, but you have only those in the earliest years of the Church to model your faith. You don’t know the great witness of faith of SS Perpetua and Felicity, who wrote about their martyrdom, and those other Christians who accompanied them. So you don’t have a deeper standard of spirituality to draw on in recognizing greatness of those who followed Christ and beyond the Book of Revelations. You do not have the Church and its reality of the communion of saints.

Without the Eucharist and the witness of saints for the past 2000 years, the theology of spirituality and perfection, then you have no foundation for judging anyone in regards to sanctity.

Subsequently, you cannot truly judge Mary without criteria of witness of faith of followers of Christ…the many different charisms but all producing greater unity in Christ. A saint always brings us closer to communion with Christ Himself. And as Mary was sinless, she is the short spiritual ladder to Jesus. We know that. We have experienced that. I am sorry for those who continually deny her place in their hearts.

 

[joe370]

As you have pointed out there probably is exceptions to the “all” in Rom.3:23, but according to Rom.8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Mary was not one of them.

So you agree that there could be exceptions regarding Romans 3.

Where does the following verse “God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful…” - suggest that Mary was a sinner? Rom.8:3 simply says that Jesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh. One can assume that Mary, like every human, is that “likeness of sinful flesh” - but one cannot use Rom. 8 to prove that Mary was a sinner - agreed?

 

[joe370]

Mary certainly was “made pure” but that is only because she became “full of grace” when she accepted Jesus sacrifice for her sins.

Rom.8
3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

The flesh that Jesus came in the likeness of was His mother’s flesh. Therefore His mother Mary was a sinner.

What we have here is a theological standoff: your understanding and interpretation of scripture, regarding Mary vs my understanding and interpretation of scripture, regarding Mary.

Neither you nor I are willing to say that we are 100% right!!! :yup:

Which means you and I have to figure out if Jesus did in fact leave you and I with a way to know, with certainty whether or not Jesus’ mother Mary was a sinner. Right?

If there is no way to know with certainty, then all you and I are offering is our subjective opinion regarding Jesus’ mother, which may or may not be correct, meaning that you probably shouldn’t say things like: “Therefore His mother Mary was a sinner” - as if it were a verifiable fact, just as I shouldn’t say, things like: Therefore His mother Mary was not a sinner. Right?

 

[KathleenGee]

Richard, you are also overlooking my point that we have the Bible and the Church – the documented history of Christ’s Church-- the new dimension of faith vs the former that waited for the Messiah.

We know all about the ancient people of faith. But does your faith community have any history of people of faith after Christ’s death and resurrection and the apostles?

 

[Canto]

Isn’t mediate and intercede the same thing?

1 Tim 2:1-3 I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions and thanksgivings be made for all men… For this is **good and acceptable in the sight of God **our Saviour

 

[Good_Fella]

What would this tradition be?

What the Church has perceived to be the work of God in salvation history.

The apostles had Jesus right there in front of them. They didn’t need to be told by a " sacred Tradition" That He was God. He manifested that to them daily.

I don’t recall Jesus explicitly telling his disciples: “I am God,” or “I am consubstantial (homoousios) with the Father.” But he did tell them: “I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now. But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming” (Jn 16:12-13). Jesus only confirmed that he was the expected Messiah (Mt 16:15-17,20), not the second Person of the Triune God. The Jews had no idea that the Messiah would be a divine Person. It wasn’t until after Jesus had sent the Paraclete that the Messianic prophecies in the OT came to light and our Lord was perceived to be the divine Word made flesh as alluded to in the book of Wisdom and the Psalms. The Jews still interpret the OT according to Judaic tradition. Nor did Jesus explicitly manifest his divinity by performing miracles. Moses and the Apostles performed miracles, but they weren’t divine persons. Miracles can simply show that God is working through appointed human agents. The scribes and Pharisees believed that it was the devil who worked through Jesus, just as he had worked through the priests of Pharaoh against Moses.

The unwritten word would be revealed to men through His Spirit.

1Cor.2
9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Sacred Tradition is the unwritten word of God - the declaration of the Spirit to the Church. The written word (Sacred Scripture) confirms the truths that have been perceived by the faithful through the voice of the Spirit. Thus the unwritten word is living and dynamic, progressing through the course of time in the llife of the Church until the end of this age.

Who is this magisterium and how do you know that the divine mandate rests with them?

The Church has known this from the beginning. Both Scripture and the texts of the early Church Fathers bear witness to the establishment and importance of a central teaching authority in one visible universal Church by Christ.

“And I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
Matthew 16, 18-19

Please see St. Clement, Bishop of Rome, First Epistle to the Corinthians 44:1-2 (c.A.D. 96); St.Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyraeans 8 (c.A.D. 110), (etc.)

Gen. 3:15 is a reference to God’s church, the Jews in the OT and spiritual Jews in the NT. Rom.9
4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Israel and the Church are corporate types of the new Eve. Mary is the personal new Eve, whose offspring is Jesus and all his disciples (Rev 12:17). Justin Martyr (A.D. 155) and Irenaeus (A.D. 180) bear witness to this Marian tradition of the One Holy Apostolic Catholic Church. And both ECFs bear testimony to the Church’s belief in Mary’s sinlessness on account of her significant role in the order of redemption.

PAX
:heaven:

 

[joe370]

Hey Good Fella…

Please see St. Clement, Bishop of Rome, First Epistle to the Corinthians 44:1-2 (c.A.D. 96); St.Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyraeans 8 (c.A.D. 110), (etc.)

It was the ECF’s that really helped me along in my conversion.

I thought:

Surely if these men can’t be trusted then no one can. After all, Clement knew Peter and was taught by both Peter and Paul; Polycarp knew John and was taught by him; Ignatius was a bishop of Antioch, and a student of John as well. They all knew the apostles and were all taught by the apostles, and they in turn passed on apostolic truth to men like Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, Melito…and it was apostolic succession, like this, that was/is so critical to the preservation of doctrinal truth in my humble opinion.

If we can trust that the ante-Nicene church leaders faithfully received and preserved both sacred tradition and sacred scripture, on behalf of the Catholic Church, then we can trust what they believed and taught, as well.

 

[Marybeloved]

Richard, Romans 8 is simply stating what we all believe- That Christ became a man! Mankind is fallen, so of course, Jesus in becoming a man took on the likeness of sinful flesh!

And please note that we are NOT saying that Mary, like Jesus, was created with an unfallen human nature :nope:- We are saying that at her first instance of existence, or simultaneously with her creation/conception, she was filled with a complete and perfect grace such that her entire nature including her flesh was perfected, so that at her bloom she conceived a perfect human nature which God himself took as his own. Without the “full of Grace” part she would be exactly like you and I, fallen.

Scriptural evidence for this is in the Archangel’s calling her ‘full of Grace’ and St. Elizabeth filled with the Holy Spirit calling Christ the fruit of Mary’s womb- Now, Remember, by their fruits you shall know them. By what fruit do we know Mary? Just think about this, Richard: When Jesus Christ is your fruit, honestly, what manner of being does that make you? A sinner?

 

[Marybeloved]

You are so right that Mary is the source of Jesus flesh.

Now Richard, Jesus Christ was called the fruit of Mary’s womb. Just think about this, her being/her nature filled with grace together with her free will coming together with God’s free will- Resulted in Jesus Christ-the God-man! Just think about it Richard, How amazing is that? You are singularly chosen to work with God to bring forth the God-man- How are you not freaking out about her?!?! :whacky:

Our Lord teaches us that fruit is brought forth after the nature of the tree- evil fruit from an evil tree, good fruit from a good tree- We are judged by our fruit, that’s how people have been able to pin-point saintly persons down the centuries- Great works of love and charity, which is co-operation with grace (remember faith evidenced in action?) Now imagine of all the fruits and all the works of any creatures who ever existed, Mary is judged by this one fruit- JESUS CHRIST!!! On a scale in heaven weighing our fruit and determining our rewards, what creature, angel or man, could come close? Her fruit outweighs the entire universe! How do protestants manage to brush her aside so casually??

 

[CopticChristian]

What would this tradition be?

The apostles had Jesus right there in front of them. They didn’t need to be told by a " sacred Tradition" That He was God. He manifested that to them daily.

The unwritten word would be revealed to men through His Spirit.

1Cor.2
9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Who is this magisterium and how do you know that the divine mandate rests with them?

Gen. 3:15 is a reference to God’s church, the Jews in the OT and spiritual Jews in the NT. Rom.9
4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Letter to the Epehesians…the mystery hidden for all ages…Hope you’re doing well Richard, may you remain in Christ.

 

[Good_Fella]

Hey Good Fella…

Please see St. Clement, Bishop of Rome, First Epistle to the Corinthians 44:1-2 (c.A.D. 96); St.Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyraeans 8 (c.A.D. 110), (etc.)

It was the ECF’s that really helped me along in my conversion.

I thought:

Surely if these men can’t be trusted then no one can. After all, Clement knew Peter and was taught by both Peter and Paul; Polycarp knew John and was taught by him; Ignatius was a bishop of Antioch, and a student of John as well. They all knew the apostles and were all taught by the apostles, and they in turn passed on apostolic truth to men like Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, Melito…and it was apostolic succession, like this, that was/is so critical to the preservation of doctrinal truth in my humble opinion.

If we can trust that the ante-Nicene church leaders faithfully received and preserved both sacred tradition and sacred scripture, on behalf of the Catholic Church, then we can trust what they believed and taught, as well.

Sadly, Protestant theologians and founders of denominations ignore the testimony of the Church Fathers and deny the historic Christian faith. At most they cut and paste vague isolated extracts to support their own beliefs on justification, predestination, or dispensationalism while dismissing the catholicity of the writings of the Fathers as false. It’s all about selecting what they choose to believe and confirming their own presuppositions apart from the Apostolic Tradition of the Church. Welcome home!

“It is on him [Peter] that he builds the Church, and to him that he entrusts the sheep to feed. And although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single Chair, thus establishing by his own authority the source and hallmark of the Church’s oneness…If a man does not fast to this oneness of Peter does he still imagine that he still holds the faith? If he deserts the Chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, has he still confidence that he is in the Church?”
*St. Cyprian, De Unitate Ecclesiae 4 (A.D. 251) *

“We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful.”
Pope Pius lX, Apostolic Constitution Ineffabilis Deus (8 December 1854)

PAX
:heaven:

 

[Gara3987]

Protestants, scripture says:* “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.”* Romans 3:23

Meaning that Mary must have been a sinner too…

Scripture says: For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners…" Romans 5:19

Meaning that it was the disobedience of just the one man, as opposed to the first man and woman, that many were made sinners.

Those who believe that Jesus’ mother Mary was a sinner:

Could it possibly be wrong to interpret Romans 3 to include the woman Mary, the new Eve of creation, as a sinner, if it’s wrong to assume that Romans 5 contradicts Genesis 3 by excluding the first woman from Romans 5?

LOL… Well if that is the case, and all have sinned, then that would mean that our Lord Jesus would have to fall under that all.

What is interesting is that the word πάντες (Pantes) is used here and is also used under verse 1 Cor. xv. 22.

ὥσπερ γὰρ ἐν τῷ Ἀδὰμ ** πάντες** ἀποθνήσκουσιν, οὕτω καὶ ἐν τῷ Χριστῷ πάντες ζωοποιηθήσονται.

(And as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive.)

But we know that Enoch and Elijah did not die; they were assumed into heaven. (IV Reg. ii. 11)

And then Paul says Rom v.19 that “many” were made sinners.

At any rate, Blessed Mary was also subject to original sin, but God redeemed her from the moment of her conception. Mary’s sinlessness is completely based on the anticipated sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Pax Christi.

 

[Frankk]

What we have here is a theological standoff: your understanding and interpretation of scripture, regarding Mary vs my understanding and interpretation of scripture, regarding Mary.

Neither you nor I are willing to say that we are 100% right!!! :yup:

You take a very honest position, Joe.

Which means you and I have to figure out if Jesus did in fact leave you and I with a way to know, with certainty whether or not Jesus’ mother Mary was a sinner. Right?

If there is no way to know with certainty, then all you and I are offering is our subjective opinion regarding Jesus’ mother, which may or may not be correct, meaning that you probably shouldn’t say things like: “Therefore His mother Mary was a sinner” - as if it were a verifiable fact, just as I shouldn’t say, things like: Therefore His mother Mary was not a sinner. Right?

Such examples consistently expose the complete fallacy of Sola Scriptura. How any intelligent or, even, half-way educated individual can hold to the doctrine seems astonishing.

Still, despite the clarity of your position no doubt, as we approach 50 pages of posts, the sorry tale will run on and on.

 

[KathleenGee]

MaryBeloved,

Good explanation on Mary…filled with grace at conception…and she was also given free will…her constitution and being said yes to Christ. She needed salvation…but Christ is…He is the means through which the universe was made…but He became man through Mary…

Richard you ask what tradition is?..

It is believing in the truth of Jesus Christ given us by witnesses of Him—the apostles. If there is no witness…it is my word against your word.

Christ gave us not just one apostle…but 12…consensual…of many…again a reflection of the nature of the Church…based alone on Christ…These apostles chose their successors…and they also had many followers who became teachers…and then we look historically at their students; we look at who the apostles appointed as bishops…and who they in turn appointed…

Tradition is apostolic, how we relate to Christ and His teachings, how we relate to Church, how we live out Church, how the Church is administrated and handles cases…this is Tradition…beliefs and practices of the Church held since its beginning…

That is why I am saying you can’t have just the Bible…otherwise it is your interpretation vs mine…a man made effort. We may encounter Christ and have a basic shared experience of Him…but in private interpretation – which St. Peter forbade----private interpretation without Christ’s apostles and successors…you fracture out.

Just this morning I was talking with a woman from Scotland and we were talking about different regions and beliefs in America…She grew up Presbyterian…but she is noting all the different beliefs and level of fundamentalism in our country.

Christianity is potentially the greatest voting block in the country, but due to the fracturing of Christianity…Sola Scripture has created an emnity among Christians, a misuse of the Sacred Word of God that is supposed to give us new life and new perspective on the world around us through time…and a shared experience with others so we can be of one mind and one heart…that sacred unity Christ prayed for and referred to at the Last Supper.

The work of Mary in the Church is to make us of one heart and mind. And she was present at the Church of Jerusalem where they experience this unity.

 

[ForeverGrace]

The immaculate conception is a fairly new doctrine within the light of the timetable of Catholicism. I have the quotes of many Popes and church fathers who absolutely deny that Mary was sinless. Pope Pius IX made this part of the Catholic doctrine, but many before him found this to be heretical.

I go with scripture which tells me that all men are sinful and there weren’t any exceptions made.

 

[joe370]

The immaculate conception is a fairly new doctrine within the light of the timetable of Catholicism. I have the quotes of many Popes and church fathers who absolutely deny that Mary was sinless. Pope Pius IX made this part of the Catholic doctrine, but many before him found this to be heretical.

I go with scripture which tells me that all men are sinful and there weren’t any exceptions made.

Please provide the quotes of the many Popes and church fathers who absolutely denied that Mary was sinless?

 

[ForeverGrace]

Please provide the quotes of the many Popes and church fathers who absolutely denied that Mary was sinless?

Here you go friend. I’ve only provided four,but there at least 3 more and perhaps 4. **1. Leo I (aka Leo the Great)**First Sermon on Nativity (Sermon 21), Chapter 1

“There is for all one common measure of joy, because as our Lord the destroyer of sin and death finds none free from charge, so is He come to free us all.”

Second Sermon on the Nativity (Sermon 22), Chap. 3.

“And to this end, without male seed Christ was conceived of a Virgin, who was fecundated not by human intercourse but by the Holy Spirit. And whereas in all mothers conception does not take place without stain of sin, this one received purification from the Source of her conception”

Eighth Sermon on the Nativity (Sermon 28), Chapter 3

“And therefore in the general ruin of the entire human race there was but one remedy in the secret of the Divine plan which could succor the fallen, and that was that one of the sons of Adam should be born free and innocent of original transgression, to prevail for the rest both by His example and His merits. Still further, because this was not permitted by natural generation, and because there could be no offspring from our faulty stock without seed, of which the Scripture saith, 'Who can make a clean thing conceived of an unclean seed? is it not Thou who art alone?”

. Fifth sermon on the Nativity (Sermon 25), Chapter 5.

“… when by the condition of birth, there is one cause of perishing for all. And so among the sons of men, the Lord Jesus alone was born innocent, since he alone was conceived without the pollution of carnal concupiscence.”

**2 Ambrose **(c. 339-97) commenting on Luke 1:35:

For wholly alone of those born of woman was our Holy Lord Jesus, Who by the strangeness of His undefiled Birth has not suffered the pollutions of earthly corruption, but dispelled them by heavenly majesty.

• Saint Ambrose of Milan, Exposition of the Holy Gospel according to Saint Luke, trans. Theodosia Tomkinson (Etna: Center for Traditionalist Orthodox Studies, 1998), Book II, §56, p. 59. (Expositio Evangelii secundum Lucam, 2.56, PL 15:1572D-1573A.)
  **Augustine (354-430 AD): **

Moreover, when expounding the Gospel according to Luke, he * says: “It was no cohabitation with a husband which opened the secrets of the Virgin’s womb; rather was it the Holy Ghost which infused immaculate seed into her unviolated womb. For the Lord Jesus alone of those who are born of woman is holy, inasmuch as He experienced not the contact of earthly corruption, by reason of the novelty of His immaculate birth; nay, He repelled it by His heavenly majesty.”

• NPNF1: Vol. V, Augustine’s Anti-Pelagian Works, The Grace of Christ And on Original Sin, Book II On Original Sin, Chapter 47-Sentences from Ambrose in favor of Original Sin

3. Gelasius I

Gelasius’ fifth letter. I found it elsewhere identified as his seventh letter. Regardless, it is written to the Picenian Bishops. It states:

“Accordingly whatever those parents produced of their stock, is indeed the work of God, according to the institution of nature, but not without the contagion of that evil which they derived through their own transgression”

Gelasius “Lib. contra Pelagium,” which I found elsewhere cited as as “dicta adv. Pelag. haeresin.,” which in any event means it is a work against the Pelagians. It states:
It belongs alone to the immaculate Lamb to have no sin at all.
Gregory Ist (or Gregory the Great)

Book of the Morals, an exposition of Job, Book 18, on Job 27 (and quoted by Thomas Aquinas in Summa Theologiae, 3rd part, question 34, article 1, reply to objection 3)
For we, though we are made holy, yet are: not born holy, because by the mere constitution of a corruptible nature we are tied and bound, that we should say with the Prophet, Behold, I was shapen in wickedness, and in sin hath my mother conceived me. But He only is truly born holy, Who in order that He might get the better of that same constitution of a corruptible nature, was not conceived by the combining of carnal conjunction.

“Moreover, since no one among men in this world is without sin (and what else is sinning but flying from GOD?), I say confidently that this my daughter also has some sins.”
NPNF2: Vol. XII, Selected Epistles, Book VII, Epistle 30.

Gregory the Great (Gregory I c. 540-603):

And what a thing it would be, were we to neglect for the salvation of the soul what we carefully attend to in matters of earthly concern! And so, since, according to the words of the Apostle John, no one is without sin, let us call to mind enticements of thought, incontinence of tongue, deeds of transgression; and let us, while we may, with great knocking, do away with the stains of our iniquities, that our just and loving Redeemer may not execute vengeance according to our deservings, but according to His mercy be bent to pardon.

NPNF2: Vol. XIII, Selected Epistles, Book XII, Epistle 1.

4. Roman Clergy, post Honorius I (John IV before his reign)

Bede’s Ecclesiastical History, Book 2, Chapter 19:

“And in the first place, it is blasphemous folly to say that man is without sin, which none can be, but only the one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, Who was conceived and born without sin; for all other men, being born in original sin, are known to bear the mark of Adam’s transgression, even whilst they are without actual sin, according to the saying of the prophet, “For behold, I was conceived in iniquity; and in sin did my mother give birth to me.”

However, this same quotation is attributed elsewhere attributed to John IV, because it was apparently written by him and three other high-ranking clergy while he was Rome’s bishop-elect (see this source).*