Mary - sinner - Romans 3?

[Richard_Kastner]

You would agree that God created the universe, adam and eve and you and I. In consideration that what we discover about life is nothing more than what it is God created you would have no problem with.

You may want to look up fetal and maternal microchimerism. It so happens that fetal cells cross the placenta to the mother and maternal cells cross the placenta to the fetus. In consideration that this is a discovery of how God created our procreated lives ponder this.

Jesus as a fetus always God/man…cells crossing into the body and residing in the body of Mary and the cells of Mary crossing into the body of Jesus and residing in the living Jesus…even after birth…reconsider the “likeness of sin” and what you believe about from whence it came…Could any of those cells be from a sinful person?

I believe it is part of God’s plan that this was not known in the past and discovered recently so that we could tell Protestants to rethink their Sola Scriptura position and look at what Paul says in Romans.

You seem to have provided an intimate picture of what Romans 8:3 descrbes as coming “in the likeneess of sinful flesh”

We know that Jesus was without sin, right

Heb. 4:15
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Yet, He died and we see in Rom.6:23 that the wages of SIN is death. How can this be?
Well we see in Heb.2 that God has a plan.

Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
12Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
13And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

We know that the flesh that Jesus came in the likeness of was sinful flesh. Rom,8:3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh. And it says in Heb.2:14 That the children (a reference to the children of God) are “partakers of flesh and blood” and that Jesus **“likewise took part of the same”**So, again here we see that Jesus takes on the same flesh as the children (of whom I’m sure you will agree Mary is one)

16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Jesus takes on the likeness of sinful flesh. Sinful flesh that ALL THE REST OF HUMANITY SHARES, yet He Himself is whithout sin.

What can be known of God can be seen in the world not necessarily in the Bible. Reasoning with the Bible alone leads to fallible error.

1Jn.5:10He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

What do you think that record is Cop?

Jn.5
39Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
41I receive not honour from men.
42But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
43I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
45Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
47But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

It’s the bible. and that’s good enough for me.

 

[CopticChristian]

You seem to have provided an intimate picture of what Romans 8:3 descrbes as coming “in the likeneess of sinful flesh”

We know that Jesus was without sin, right

Heb. 4:15
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Yet, He died and we see in Rom.6:23 that the wages of SIN is death. How can this be?
Well we see in Heb.2 that God has a plan.

Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
12Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
13And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

We know that the flesh that Jesus came in the likeness of was sinful flesh. Rom,8:3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh. And it says in Heb.2:14 That the children (a reference to the children of God) are “partakers of flesh and blood” and that Jesus **“likewise took part of the same”**So, again here we see that Jesus takes on the same flesh as the children (of whom I’m sure you will agree Mary is one)

16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Jesus takes on the likeness of sinful flesh. Sinful flesh that ALL THE REST OF HUMANITY SHARES, yet He Himself is whithout sin.

1Jn.5:10He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

What do you think that record is Cop?

Jn.5
39Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
41I receive not honour from men.
42But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
43I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
45Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
47But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

It’s the bible. and that’s good enough for me.

No one doubts Jesus is without sin.

 

[joe370]

CopticChristian - You may want to look up fetal and maternal microchimerism. It so happens that fetal cells cross the placenta to the mother and maternal cells cross the placenta to the fetus. In consideration that this is a discovery of how God created our procreated lives ponder this.

Phew, I most definitely would have to look that one up…

Jesus as a fetus always God/man…cells crossing into the body and residing in the body of Mary and the cells of Mary crossing into the body of Jesus and residing in the living Jesus…even after birth…reconsider the “likeness of sin” and what you believe about from whence it came…Could any of those cells be from a sinful person?

Doesn’t seem likely, for God abhors sin, which was why God parted ways with Adam and Eve to begin with…

Reasoning with the Bible alone leads to fallible error.

Big time, as can be illustrated by all of the bible based churches in the world. To trust in Jesus’ church is to trust in God. To trust in sacred scripture via individual interpretation…well, you do the math… I certainly wouldn’t consider my interpretation the be all end all for myself or others. I put my trust and faith in Jesus’ church…

 

[CopticChristian]

Phew, I most definitely would have to look that one up…

Doesn’t seem likely, for God abhors sin, which was why God parted ways with Adam and Eve to begin with…

Big time, as can be illustrated by all of the bible based churches in the world. To trust in Jesus’ church is to trust in God. To trust in sacred scripture via individual interpretation…well, you do the math… I certainly wouldn’t consider my interpretation the be all end all for myself or others. I put my trust and faith in Jesus’ church…

Hey joe, what you doin with that gun in your hand…unrelated…however I could not help myself. I made a mistake…Can you imagine infallible error vs fallible error…? Whoops for Coptic…

Anyway…you and I understand that God is in charge, we are not, we are part and parcel of what God provided for us…isn’t providence a joy…we should pray for those that have not surety of their fallible always fallible thoughts and invite them into the world, the realm, the bosom, the family and comfort of certainty.

 

[finkmm]

Personally, I try always to keep in mind that I could be wrong.

Including Mary in the Romans 3 passage is sensible, because it’s the simplest interpretation. I’ve been taught that, when trying to understand Scripture, you should look at what’s simplest and most straight-forward first. So, when Romans 3 v23 says ‘all have sinned’, I would say it means ‘all’, as in everyone (excluding Jesus, because we know from elsewhere that He was without sin). The reason I wouldn’t exclude Mary from that is because I don’t see anything elsewhere in Scripture that would lead me to believe she is excluded. You use Scripture to interprete Scripture, so any conclusions have to be compatible with the whole of the Bible. If Mary was totally without sin, I would expect that to be mentioned somewhere in the Bible, but as far as I know, it is not. I am willing to be corrected, of course, so feel free.

How about Luke 1:26 when the angel Gabriel says to Mary: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women." When a vessel is full there is no room for anything else in it. It is completely full, in Mary’s case, of grace. No sin; just grace–fully. This the foundation for the dogma of the Immaculate Conception. And Mary was not awarded the honor of being the Mother of God for living a good life; she was predestined from her conception, by God, to be the Immaculate Mother of Jesus the Christ.

 

[joe370]

Hey finkmm…

How about Luke 1:26 when the angel Gabriel says to Mary: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women." When a vessel is full there is no room for anything else in it. It is completely full, in Mary’s case, of grace. No sin; just grace–fully. This the foundation for the dogma of the Immaculate Conception. And Mary was not awarded the honor of being the Mother of God for living a good life; she was predestined from her conception, by God, to be the Immaculate Mother of Jesus the Christ.

Sadly most non-Catholics, as I once did, use bibles that use the term highly favored, perhaps to steer clear of the idea of Mary being sinless, but that translation is a poor substitute due to the fact that the word kecharitomene, in Luke 28, comes from the root word charitoo, which means grace, as opposed to favor, making kecharitomene the past perfect tense and the only place in the bible where it is used. If in fact kecharitomene is the past perfect tense as propounded by scholars then it stands to reason that Mary was already filled with grace even before the annunciation, and what really makes the address of the angel Gabriel, to Mary, singularly unique is the fact that Gabriel uses kecharitomene (full of grace) - as a title as opposed to an adjectival description. Gabriel says, hail, or hello, full of grace as opposed to hello Mary, full of grace. That speaks volumes to me…

Greek Bible (NT):

kecaritwmenh
kecharitOmenE
G5487
vp Perf Pas Nom Sg f
Having-been-graced

 

[finkmm]

Joe 370
Beautifully said…much better than I!

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Hey finkmm…
Sadly most non-Catholics, as I once did, use bibles that use the term highly favored, perhaps to steer clear of the idea of Mary being sinless, but that translation is a poor substitute due to the fact that the word kecharitomene, in Luke 28, comes from the root word charitoo, which means grace, as opposed to favor, making kecharitomene the past perfect tense and the only place in the bible where it is used. If in fact kecharitomene is the past perfect tense as propounded by scholars then it stands to reason that Mary was already filled with grace even before the annunciation, and what really makes the address of the angel Gabriel, to Mary, singularly unique is the fact that Gabriel uses kecharitomene (full of grace) - as a title as opposed to an adjectival description. Gabriel says, hail, or hello, full of grace as opposed to hello Mary, full of grace. That speaks volumes to me…

Greek Bible (NT):

kecaritwmenh
kecharitOmenE
G5487
vp Perf Pas Nom Sg f
Having-been-graced

The fact that Mary was full of grace, certainly does not mean that she was without sin from her birth, it simply means that she has availed herself of the gift of grace through faith in the coming sacrifice of the Messiah, her Son Jesus Christ.

So, what exactly is grace

Romans 5:2
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Grace is the unmerited gift of salvation in Jesus Christ. That would be SALVATION FROM OUR SINS. Because Mary was full of grace means that she was SAVED FROM HER SINS by the unmerited gift of salvation provided by her son.

Heb.2
10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

Here we see again that “he that sanctifieth (Jesus) and they who are sanctified are all of one” Jesus came in the “likeness of sinful flesh” Rom.8:3 just like the rest of humanity. That sinful flesh of necessity included His mother because she was the one who provided Jesus’ body (flesh).

 

[joe370]

Richard Kastner;8443556]The fact that Mary was full of grace, certainly does not mean that she was without sin from her birth, it simply means that she has availed herself of the gift of grace through faith in the coming sacrifice of the Messiah, her Son Jesus Christ.

Mary, who was predestined from her conception to be kecharitomene, didn’t avail herself of the gift of grace. Like Finkmm said, “Mary was not awarded the honor of being the Mother of God for living a good life; she was predestined from her conception, by God, to be the Immaculate Mother of Jesus the Christ” ergo the term kecharitomene.

Paul reminds us that grace (charis) is the antithesis and conqueror of sin and Mary was completely full of Grace, which means that sin had no dominion over Jesus’ Mother:

Romans 6:14: “For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.”

I believe the following is a good analogy: "One might look at grace as water, and sin as the air in an empty glass (us). When you pour in the water (grace), the sin (air) is displaced. A full glass of water, therefore, contains no air.

Scripture illustrates that we need God’s grace to live a holy life, free from sin, but unlike Mary, none of us were conceived completely full of grace as Mary was, which was why the Angel Gabriel addressed Jesus’ mother as kecharitomene (full of grace). Grace is the power from God, which enables one to be sinless and holy and since Mary was full of grace, Mary was perfectly sinless and holy. Moreover, it was a grace from God which could not possibly have had anything to do with Mary’s personal merit which is why Mary couldn’t have “availed herself” of it, and quite appropriate for the one who would bear God Incarnate in her body. Even as a former protestant I just couldn’t bring myself to believe that the very woman that gave birth to God carried the stain of sin within her.

I of course understand that you do not believe that there is any scriptural basis for God to have set Mary apart in such a manner, but certainly you believe that Jesus would not want our adversary to potentially have dominion over Mary’s soul? If Jesus did not save and protect His mother in some singular divine manner, from the evil one, then,** like all of us,** there is a chance that sin could have encroached upon Jesus’ mother during her earthly life, damning her eternal soul to hell if she was not properly disposed at the time of her death.

Of course, like all non-Catholic Christians you would never ever entertain such silliness…

 

[joe370]

Hey Finkmm what caught my attention long ago was the fact that the angel Gabriel, by addressing Mary as full of grace, wanted everyone to know that Mary actually exemplified the very characteristics of the title given her by him. I eventually learned that even the reformers such as Martin Luther John Calvin and Ulrich Zwingli etc., the very men that spearheaded the reformation believed in Mary’s sinless state. As a matter of fact, it is a historical fact that the original protestant reformers accepted almost every major Marian doctrine and considered these doctrines to be both scriptural and fundamental to the historic Christian Faith.

 

[CopticChristian]

The fact that Mary was full of grace, certainly does not mean that she was without sin from her birth, it simply means that she has availed herself of the gift of grace through faith in the coming sacrifice of the Messiah, her Son Jesus Christ.

So, what exactly is grace

Romans 5:2
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Grace is the unmerited gift of salvation in Jesus Christ. That would be SALVATION FROM OUR SINS. Because Mary was full of grace means that she was SAVED FROM HER SINS by the unmerited gift of salvation provided by her son.

Heb.2
10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

Here we see again that “he that sanctifieth (Jesus) and they who are sanctified are all of one” Jesus came in the “likeness of sinful flesh” Rom.8:3 just like the rest of humanity. That sinful flesh of necessity included His mother because she was the one who provided Jesus’ body (flesh).

This is your understanding of grace. The One Holy Catholic Church acknowedges grace as divine shonship. You missed that one. Grace is nothing more than sharing in the divinity of Christ, a gift, not earned. There are in fact many types of grace you did not speak of however you may want to venture into the Catechism to see what the reformers did not teach you concerning grace. It will add to your understanding.

 

[JimmytheButcher]

All I know about reading Scripture is that it is never plain sense. Scripture is much more beautiful than that. Only the devil would wish something so banal as a plain sense of Scripture, for thinking so is a trap whereby one fancies himself a god; grasping at divinity for himself. The plain sense of Scripture heresy is a venomous apple of self-love; thinking oneself to merit all knowledge of good and evil.

Vanitas vanitatum, dixit Ecclesiastes; vanitas vanitatum, et omnia vanitas.

The single biggest mistake one can make is not prayerfully reading His Scriptures. The reprobate are quick to read the Catholic letters and other New Testament works, and even read the Gospels, but are slow, if ever, in learning the words of the prophets, and even when doing so, only to memorize tools of their convenience. One should learn the Old Testament; dwelling in them daily. The Gospels are magnificent but their depth is not plumbed without the aid of Mary and Joseph’s holy ancestors.

Mary was the first act of Christ’s salvation,

I am uneducated man and I can see this plainly out no merit of my own. If someone told me my mother is a sinner, I more than likely would not be a chummy neighbor. I owe my flesh to my mother and my soul I owe to Mary, who is emminently more sanctified than my glorious and earthly lady. My mother is an icon of the Blessed Virgin, She who is uniquely consecrated to God for eternity.

If we spurn the Son we spurn the Father. It is plain to see that one should not spurn the Mother, the most private and dearly loved person the Man can have. She is His intimate. Spurning the Mother is spurning both the Father and Son. We should think long and hard before attempting to dismiss any tradition handed down, especially traditions that pay dear compliments to Christ. Likewise, if someone takes away from Mary they are taking away from my own mother and all the other women I encounter in the course of my life.

He fashioned Her out of the stone rejected by the builders and encrusted Her with lapis lazuli and saphires, to be a vessel for Sacrifice. This is why Her colour is blue, as the heavens above are marvelously blue on a crisp, clear sunny day. She is a living ciborium and a chalice offered at the mountain top, where the Priest stands at the holy place (mar sabba). She has the face that resembles Christ in the Upper Room. She is always at His side, where the Blood and Water pour out. The spear pierced Her Immaculate Heart when it pierced His Sacred Heart. My own breakable mother is fashioned out of clay, but Mary has been fashioned to be unbreakable.

Yet, even an unbreakable golden ciborium and silver chalice adorned with the finest jewels are like dust if it were not for Christ, our humble God, whose Flesh is real food and Blood is real drink.

Now, a priest can offer oblations of vinegar in a sewing thimble and stale crumbs of bread on a scrap newpaper (this has been done during times of persecution) would be valid and yet doing so would be not dignified; not fitting for a king.

Christ is prophet, king, and priest. Mary is His sinless vessel because He desires Her so.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

This is your understanding of grace. The One Holy Catholic Church acknowedges grace as divine shonship. You missed that one. Grace is nothing more than sharing in the divinity of Christ, a gift, not earned. There are in fact many types of grace you did not speak of however you may want to venture into the Catechism to see what the reformers did not teach you concerning grace. It will add to your understanding.

Hey, Cop didn’t you read the scripture passage that from Rom. 5 that went along with my post? Here’s an excerpt from that passage.

Rom. 5:17For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon **all men unto justification **of life.

The gift of God here talked about is the gift of righteosness purchased FOR US by the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. Now this is not an interpretation. That is what this passage says plain and simple. Notice that verse in 18 it says that though the offence condemnation came to ALL MEN. Now this is not saying that all women are excluded from this condemnation. The term ALL MEN means all of mankind. Men and women together. You are right when you say that “The One Holy Catholic Church acknowedges grace as divine shonship.” I’m thinking you meant sonship this would include Mary. What I disagree with in your post is this. “Grace is nothing more than sharing in the divinity of Christ, a gift, not earned.” Grace is sharing in the divinity of Christ, but it absolutely WAS earned, just not by us, and we can only access that sonship, or daughtership through acceptance of the GIFT of grace that Jesus EARNED for us. This is what is meant in Luke 1 when the angel says “hail full of grace”. It says that Mary had accepted the gift of grace and salvation from her sins, by the sacrifice of Jesus.

 

[ConfusedTim]

Protestants, scripture says: “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” Romans 3:23

This passage cannot be taken literally. There are millions of adults who have had mental disabilities from birth who will not be able to sin - they do not have the mental capacity.

Taken with other scripture about Mary being “full” I .e. over flowing with grace we can see that she is not included in this passage.

 

[Frankk]

So, are you saying that Jesus did not come in the likeness of His mother’s flesh?

Quite the opposite. And, of course, Jesus is God. He was/is sinless which rather proves that Mary must also have been conceived sinless. He could not possibly have been born of a sinful mother.

Or are you suggesting that Jesus was sinful when he was born? From whom did he receive redemption? Certainly not from John the Baptist. No! He was born sinless from a sinless mother.

For a true Christian anything else makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[joe370]

Quite the opposite. And, of course, Jesus is God. He was/is sinless which rather proves that Mary must also have been conceived sinless. He could not possibly have been born of a sinful mother.

Or are you suggesting that Jesus was sinful when he was born? From whom did he receive redemption? Certainly not from John the Baptist. No! He was born sinless from a sinless mother.

For a true Christian anything else makes no sense whatsoever.

To be fair to Richard’s line of thinking, and of course God’s omnipotence, if God wanted to be born of a sinful mother, God could have, for nothing is impossible for God, but it makes way more sense that God wouldn’t…

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Quite the opposite. And, of course, Jesus is God. He was/is sinless which rather proves that Mary must also have been conceived sinless. He could not possibly have been born of a sinful mother.

Or are you suggesting that Jesus was sinful when he was born? From whom did he receive redemption? Certainly not from John the Baptist. No! He was born sinless from a sinless mother.

For a true Christian anything else makes no sense whatsoever.

So, then, according to your reasoning, in order for Mary to be born sinless, she must have been born of sinless parents, and of course her parents must have been born of sinless parents and so on. Oh wait that inevitably brings us back to Adam and Eve. We know that they weren’t sinless. So your theory falls short. Jesus was born “in the likeness of sinful flesh” Rom.8:3. The sinful flesh that He was born in the likeness of was Mary’s sinful flesh.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Protestants, scripture says: “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” Romans 3:23

This passage cannot be taken literally. There are millions of adults who have had mental disabilities from birth who will not be able to sin - they do not have the mental capacity.

Taken with other scripture about Mary being “full” I .e. over flowing with grace we can see that she is not included in this passage.

Are you saying that Mary had a diminished mental capacity? I think not. And Mary being full of grace simply means that she has availed herself of the gift of grace in the salvation of her soul FROM SIN provided by her son on the cross.

Romans 5:2
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

She accessed that grace through faith.

Romans 5:20
Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Where sin did abound much more (through faith in Jesus) grace abounds.

Romans 11:5
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Are you saying that this remnant was born without sin?

Romans 15:15
Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God,

Are you saying that Paul was born without sin “because of the grace that is given to me of God”

Ephesians 1:7
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

This forgiveness of sins must have been true for Mary also because she was “full of grace.”

 

[CopticChristian]

So, then, according to your reasoning, in order for Mary to be born sinless, she must have been born of sinless parents, and of course her parents must have been born of sinless parents and so on. Oh wait that inevitably brings us back to Adam and Eve. We know that they weren’t sinless. So your theory falls short. Jesus was born “in the likeness of sinful flesh” Rom.8:3. The sinful flesh that He was born in the likeness of was Mary’s sinful flesh.

You admit that Jesus was born without sin but appearing to be man in all ways, the likeness of sinful flesh. He was created without sin. How did that happen? What was the cause of that creation with the resultant sinless nature?

That same cause can create a mother in the likeness of sinful flesh except not be God/woman just woman, born of sinful parents because in God all things are possible.

You are handcuffed by your reason. I am not. I believe that God could, did and provided Mary with the gift that you deny.

If Jesus was born of a woman without sin and was born in the likeness of sinful flesh then his appearance does not contradict scripture based on Mary’s sinless nature. It only causes you mental consternation, not me.

 

[CopticChristian]

Are you saying that Mary had a diminished mental capacity? I think not. And Mary being full of grace simply means that she has availed herself of the gift of grace in the salvation of her soul FROM SIN provided by her son on the cross.

Romans 5:2
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

She accessed that grace through faith.

Romans 5:20
Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Where sin did abound much more (through faith in Jesus) grace abounds.

Romans 11:5
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Are you saying that this remnant was born without sin?

Romans 15:15
Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God,

Are you saying that Paul was born without sin “because of the grace that is given to me of God”

Ephesians 1:7
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

This forgiveness of sins must have been true for Mary also because she was “full of grace.”

I am amused at your generalization. All that you have presented I can say does not address Mary. Paul routinely uses examples, Essau, Jacob, and for some reason never included or excluded Mary. You seem to want to include Mary and I would say that this is a fallible opinion based on fallible reasoning that denies what has been believed for 2000 years by the Church and 1500 years by those that departed from the Church, and formed your thought process. You have deviated from those that commenced Protestant thought.

You want to use The bible like a book of proof to deny what you do not believe and confirm what you do believe ignoring that we believe what we believe based on The Bible, Tradition and Church teaching. To that I say OK…you do not believe that Mary was sinless today. Scott Hahn and many other Protestants did not believe that in times past and they do today.: There is still plenty of time to study. thumbsup: