Mary - sinner - Romans 3?

[joe370]

Ginge2…

Romans 5 tells us: “For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners…” Romans 5:19

Genesis 3 tells us that it was that through the disobedience of not just one man, but both the man and the woman

If sola scriptura proponents are to test everything against scripture, without any need of the authority of the church, then surely any and all sola scriptura proponent have the authoritative right to glean from the preceding passages that it was through one man (and one woman) - that sin entered the world, while another SS proponent has the authoritative right to glean from the preceding passages that it was just through the first man, since Genesis (according to our hypothetical SS proponent) - never says anything close to the following: For just as through the disobedience of the one man (and the one woman) - the many were made sinners. Right?

As a former sola scriptura proponent, if my interpretation of scripture, as I was moved by the holy spirit, was in fact my final authority then didn’t I have the right to interpret those passages to mean that it was only through the one man, (and not the one woman) - if you, as a sola scriptura proponent, have the right to interpret Romans 3 to include Mary, regarding, "all have sinned…?

If so then do you really believe that it was God’s divine plan for ALL Christian to test their Christian beliefs against scripture, to determine what is true and what is not, regarding doctrinal truth considering the fact that it leads to so much division?

 

[Ginger2]

Ginger,

How telling it is that you consistently refuse to answer my questions about SS but, instead prefer to argue against points which can never be agreed on - and to which you only have your own opinion with nothing to support it!

Please see post #279

 

[E.E.N.S]

Yes I am. I was raised Catholic and have participated in this forum several years. Altho the atmosphere seems a lot more hostile that it used to be.

Oddly enough, I remember these fora being more contentious several years ago, lol.

Anyway, if you don’t mind me asking, could you please sum up for me your understanding of Mary as the New Ark of the Covenant?

 

[Ginger2]

Ginge2r…

Romans 5 also tells us: “For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners…” Romans 5:19

Genesis 3 tells us that it was that through the disobedience of not just one man, but both the man and the woman

That’s not what it says.

Genesis 3:15 in Catholic Bibles is a mistranslation. Two of your popes have declared it so.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

I STRONGLY suggest we stop the argumentative posting and use charity.

 

[E.E.N.S]

I STRONGLY suggest we stop the argumentative posting and use charity.

At the risk of this thread closing down early, I will post the following snippet:

The dogma is especially fitting when one examines the honor that was given to the ark of the covenant. It contained the manna (bread from heaven), stone tablets of the ten commandments (the word of God), and the staff of Aaron (a symbol of Israel’s high priesthood). Because of its contents, it was made of incorruptible wood, and Psalm 132:8 said, “Arise, O Lord, and go to thy resting place, thou and the ark of thy might.” If this vessel was given such honor, how much more should Mary be kept from corruption, since she is the new ark—who carried the real bread from heaven, the Word of God, and the high priest of the New Covenant, Jesus Christ.

There would be no sense in sanctifying men who carried a box, and not sanctifying the womb who carried God himself! After all, wisdom will not dwell “in a body under debt of sin” (Wis. 1:4 NAB).

catholic.com/tracts/immaculate-conception-and-assumption

 

[joe370]

Please see post #279

Oops, sorry about the redundancy regarding 291 and 292; I have no idea how that happened.

 

[Marybeloved]

Jesus sat and ate with sinners, associuated with prostitutes and tax clloectors, touched people with leprosy,

Jesus’ home is in heaven. He is not living in a woman’s womb. You are confusing his heavenly house with his earthly mission.

It is my opinion that you are creating a picture that you feel is suitable for Jesus when the Bible clearly states Jesus took a lowly position in his time on earth.

Phil 2:7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature[a] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.

Ginger, Jesus took on human flesh…Did he take on human sin as well? When he came down to Mary, was he already Human, or is it in her that he took the human form? You say he is not living in a woman’s womb- Did he not reside there for 9 months? Are we to believe that it is your belief, that the very one who healed by a touch of his garment, lived in sin for nine months and had not even any healing effects on that flesh from which he took his own flesh and dwelt for nine months?

The Bible already tells us that Mary was prepared just like the Holy of Holies and the temple when it shows us that Mary was called “full of grace” in Heaven even before God became her son- Is it you belief that Jesus living in her for nine months, being as you said, only a lowly one, had the effect of actually diminishing that grace or increasing it? Actually, Let’s say- exploding it to kingdom come? After all, before grace had been bestowed on her “from a distance”, now she was carrying the very source of grace in her womb, every waking minute for nine months! And then lived near him, with him, doing nothing but loving and serving him for thirty years- According to Ginger, this closeness to Holiness and grace means nothing!

Last time I checked a temple is a dwelling place for the Divine. Are you denying that for nine moths, God called Mary’s womb home? For those nine months, Mary went about her business, at the market place, at the well, to her friends and relatives- She carried God with her everywhere she went,* to whomever* she went- How was she any less a temple than the Temple that at that time stood on the temple Mount? Was the Holy Spirit confused when he lead St. John the Baptist’s mother to wonder under his divine influence how her lord’s own mother could come **to **her? Was that the first time st. Elizabeth was meeting her much younger and teenaged cousin,do you think?..Or was there something totally different and other worldly about her…A God-carrier? You want us to believe that this meant nothing, Sorry, but unless Jesus is not God, YHWH- It meant a whole lot!!!

You say that he associated with sinners…I ask, for what purpose? Just hanging out and practicing lowliness? Or healing and saving them- You say he lived in a sinner for nine months, and it meant nothing, because he was being “lowly”- Really? Did he care less for Mary than he did for the sinners he went about healing and forgiving?:shrug:Whose power in the end, are you denying here, Mary’s or God’s?

 

[Marybeloved]

Think about this- Jesus changed people’s lives whom he met once. Yet, you want us to believe that on his own Mother, whose womb he called home exclusively for nine months, he had no effects. How completely selective and inconsistent do you really have to be to separate who Jesus was with strangers and sinners and who he was with his own Mother?- I’d say, pretty biased.

Jesus did all those wonders in the Gospels in only three years, He lived with his mother first, nine months inside her then thirty years with her, during which she did nothing but serve and love him- What wonders do you think he did in and for her? He said of the Harlot “**Because she has loved much, her sins though many, are forgiven her”. Now Mary, full of grace, who said to God, let it be done to me…You think that this Harlot loved Jesus in that day more than Mary loved him his whole life?

You accept that power could reside on ordinary cloth simply because it clothed Jesus’ body- Power that brought healing simply by touching it, but with Christ’s mother… How could anyone possibly believe that power resided in her flesh that clothed and Housed him, right? Total blasphemy, right? Again, in these persistent attempts at denying Mary’s place and blessings, whose power really is being denied here…Mary’s or Christ’s?

 

[Ginger2]

…God showed extreme care in his specifications and preparations for his dwelling house, it simply had to be extravagant, beautiful, better adorned than anything else in Israel, perfect and also purified and dedicated before the presence of God could descend on/into the Holy of Holies.

… God prepared Mary with as much care and specification as he required of the Temple and adorned her as extravagantly as he did the temple before he descended on it,

Ginger, …Last time I checked a temple is a dwelling place for the Divine. Are you denying that for nine moths, God called Mary’s womb home?..

And Jesus was born in a stable. And for about 32 years Jesus lived the life of a carpenter’s son. But a woman less than perfect you cannot imagine worthy to carry our Savioor into the world?

Perhaps you have forgotten God calls upon the unlikely and unworthy to serve Him:

God chose Abraham an adulterer, Moses a stammering murderer, Jacob a cheat and a trickster. David, a mere boy,…

Even Jesus made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: (Phl 2:7 )

 

[Marybeloved]

And Jesus was born in a stable. And for about 32 years Jesus lived the life of a carpenter’s son. But a woman less than perfect you cannot imagine worthy to carry our Savioor into the world?

Perhaps you have forgotten God calls upon the unlikely and unworthy to serve Him:

God chose Abraham an adulterer, Moses a stammering murderer, Jacob a cheat and a trickster. David, a mere boy,…

Even Jesus made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: (Phl 2:7 )

Abraham, Moses and David were not called to bear God in themselves! Moses and David were called to serve at the temple- none of them became the temple! That stable that Jesus lay in, may have looked ordinary, It could not remain ordinary after God lay in it, sorry. Relics from our Lord’s body and even the disciples did not remain ordinary after they came close to grace and were responsible for many wonders- Only Mary, you want us to imagine remained ordinary. And you keep avoiding the fact that God called her “full of grace” before she even became pregnant with Jesus. Was the cloth on Jesus’ body more special than the flesh on his bones?

 

[Ginger2]

Have a nice evening mary.

 

[Marybeloved]

And Jesus was born in a stable. And for about 32 years Jesus lived the life of a carpenter’s son. But a woman less than perfect you cannot imagine worthy to carry our Savioor into the world?

Perhaps you have forgotten God calls upon the unlikely and unworthy to serve Him:

God chose Abraham an adulterer, Moses a stammering murderer, Jacob a cheat and a trickster. David, a mere boy,…

Even Jesus made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: (Phl 2:7 )

And you keep telling us about Jesus’ lowliness, which never included sin. You refer to his life of simplicity and humble work and wages- none of which involve any sin. Catholics do not believe that Mary was a queen or noble woman! She was poor, St. Joseph was poor, St. John the Baptist, poor- Nothing about this shows that Mary was a sinner! St. john the Baptist, a fore-bearer was sanctified and filled with the Holy Spirit- in the womb! St. Joseph, our Lord’s earthly and legal Father, was righteous, by the testimony of the Gospels- Already a saint, even St. John’s parents had to be up-right Israelites- And the God-bearer herself? Yup, …She was full of grace. All these were lowly people in the eyes of the World, but in the eyes of God who places value on holiness, their lowliness was greatness. Your examples are misplaced here, because we are not saying that Jesus did not become lowly- It’s all about sin and holiness and the effects of extraordinary closeness with grace and God.

 

[Marybeloved]

Have a nice evening mary.

Good evening to you, Ginger. I hope we can continue this conversation some other time.

 

[Marybeloved]

Hey, just to make this conversation even more interesting, here are quotations I found on another site from the Father of protestantism and sola scriptura himself about the question we are now discussing- Was Mary a sinner?

Three hundred years before it (Immaculate Conception) was declared Dogma, the Protestant reformer Martin Luther said: *"… so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin … And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin." (Martin Luther’s Works, vol 4, pg 694)

**"God has formed the soul and body of the Virgin Mary full of the Holy Spirit, so that she is without all sins, " *(ibid. vol 52, pg 39)

". . . she is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin. . . . God’s grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil. . . . God is with her, meaning that all she did or left undone is divine and the action of God in her. Moreover, God guarded and protected her from all that might be hurtful to her." (Ref: Luther’s Works, American edition, vol. 43, p. 40, ed. H. Lehmann, Fortress, 1968)
Now, Martin Luther obviously believed that Mary’s sinlessness was explicitly taught in scripture in the passages he expounds on…Why do modern day Protestants insist that this is a Catholic invention? They read the same passages and come up with new meanings- I think it’s quite clear who are the real innovators here.

 

[rinnie]

That’s not entirely accurate I I “trust” the cc got it right, because I can clearly see they agree with what is written in Scriptures. So it’s not a matter of trusting the cc, but a matter of believing the Word of God.

As for the assumptiom, it makes no difference to me whether you believe it or not. My objection is to those who have, in the past, told me I must believe it or I risk eternal damnation.

Mary’s “assumption” is really irrelevent, imo, as it does not make any difference to the Gospel of Christ. It doesn’t teach us anything we didn’t already know from reading the Scriptures.

However, to insist I believe something without testing it against what is written, is asking me to directly disobey God, who has warned us “n ot to believe” on appearances or what makes sense to the human mind, but to test everything.

Ginger

You just don’t get it do you Ginger. It is BECAUSE the Blessed Mother was sinless that she was raised to heaven BODY AND SOUL! Her body would not be returned to DUST because she was sinless.

So the ASSUMPTION is quite relevent do you not see that now?

 

[CopticChristian]

That’s not entirely accurate I I “trust” the cc got it right, because I can clearly see they agree with what is written in Scriptures. So it’s not a matter of trusting the cc, but a matter of believing the Word of God.

As for the assumptiom, it makes no difference to me whether you believe it or not. My objection is to those who have, in the past, told me I must believe it or I risk eternal damnation.

Mary’s “assumption” is really irrelevent, imo, as it does not make any difference to the Gospel of Christ. It doesn’t teach us anything we didn’t already know from reading the Scriptures.

However, to insist I believe something without testing it against what is written, is asking me to directly disobey God, who has warned us “n ot to believe” on appearances or what makes sense to the human mind, but to test everything.

Ginger

Ginger you can do that too…

14These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly: 15But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

As you trust the Church and Scripture Paul told Timothy if time becomes a problem and you know that I have written trust the Church for the Church is built on that foundation you can trust.

 

[Good_Fella]

Your not sure what Jesus’ body has to do with His mother? Let me see if I can explain it. Mary was Jesus mother right? His Father was not flesh, but our heavenly Father, right? So again the ONLY flesh that Jesus came in the likeness of was Mary. Therefore according to Romans 8:3 Mary was a sinner.

Romans 8
3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Mary would have been a sinner if it hadn’t been for God’s interior grace, which enabled her to to fulfill and comply with the moral precepts of the written law by observing the spirit of the law: the spirit of Christ.

*That the justification of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the spirit. *
Romans 8, 4

And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace. The Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women…Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.
Luke 1, 28-30

PAX :heaven:

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Mary would have been a sinner if it hadn’t been for God’s interior grace, which enabled her to to fulfill and comply with the moral precepts of the written law by observing the spirit of the law: the spirit of Christ.

*That the justification of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the spirit. *
Romans 8, 4

And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace. The Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women…Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.
Luke 1, 28-30

PAX :heaven:

What do you think grace is Good? Is it not the justification of an individual FROM THEIR SINS by the sacrifice of the perfect Lamb of God?

Take a look at this passage

Rom.3
20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Jesus is full of grace because He is the source of grace. Everyone else that is full of grace is a benificiary of The grace provided by Christ. What that means is just like this passage says we all being sinners cannot be justified by our works in the keeping of the law but only “by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.”

This is what it means to be “full of grace”. That Mary just like the rest of us that believe is the beneficiary of the grace of God through redemption FROM HER SINS through the atoning sacrifice of her perfect son on the cross.

 

[PRmerger]

What do you think grace is Good? Is it not the justification of an individual FROM THEIR SINS by the sacrifice of the perfect Lamb of God?

Take a look at this passage

Rom.3
20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Jesus is full of grace because He is the source of grace. Everyone else that is full of grace is a benificiary of The grace provided by Christ. What that means is just like this passage says we all being sinners cannot be justified by our works in the keeping of the law but only “by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.”

This is what it means to be “full of grace”. That Mary just like the rest of us that believe is the beneficiary of the grace of God through redemption FROM HER SINS through the atoning sacrifice of her perfect son on the cross.

Not sure why you think any of the above contravenes what the CC has proclaimed about Mary’s sinlessness. Yes, Mary was saved FROM HER SINS through the atoning sacrifice of her perfect son on the cross.

All you have professed above makes you quite Catholic in your belief, Richard, with the exception of Mary being a sinner. She was saved FROM HER SINS, as you offer, and simply was never a sinner.