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RevG
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If you will read the post t clearly points out where she said this. I even highlighted it and made the text larger.
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Doxiemom
Guest
I do not see why this is so hard.
God knows each of us before He formed us in the womb.Thus He knew Mary before she was formed in the womb. He knew she was perfection, as Eve was perfection, before the fall.
She had to be perfection because Messiah comes from her seed. But I am speaking of her flesh. Jesus was flesh of her flesh.
His spirit, now is that not always been of the Father, formed before the foundations of the earth. He is the Word, The Light. Perfection.
Mary could have sinned as any other human, but God knew she would never chose to. So God could put His Son into a perfect sinless environment.
This does not put Mary even close to the same level as Jesus. Her spirit, her soul, is not like the soul of Jesus. It was given to her by the Creator, just as her body was given to her by the Creator.
She was still the creation, capable of sin,. Jesus is Word that the Creator spoke. He had the capacity to sin when made flesh, but never did. His was to become sin, so that we may be saved.
Mary needed a savior as much as anyone. The gates of heaven were closed. She would have been placed in Paradise with the rightous when she died. But to enter Heaven, she had to have a messiah. like you and me.
Mary must be called a “sinner”, because she had the free will to sin. Take that away from her and you make her into some kind of puppet, you take away her humanity, that humanity that God Himself chose to create because He wanted more than angels .
God knows each of us before He formed us in the womb.Thus He knew Mary before she was formed in the womb. He knew she was perfection, as Eve was perfection, before the fall.
She had to be perfection because Messiah comes from her seed. But I am speaking of her flesh. Jesus was flesh of her flesh.
His spirit, now is that not always been of the Father, formed before the foundations of the earth. He is the Word, The Light. Perfection.
Mary could have sinned as any other human, but God knew she would never chose to. So God could put His Son into a perfect sinless environment.
This does not put Mary even close to the same level as Jesus. Her spirit, her soul, is not like the soul of Jesus. It was given to her by the Creator, just as her body was given to her by the Creator.
She was still the creation, capable of sin,. Jesus is Word that the Creator spoke. He had the capacity to sin when made flesh, but never did. His was to become sin, so that we may be saved.
Mary needed a savior as much as anyone. The gates of heaven were closed. She would have been placed in Paradise with the rightous when she died. But to enter Heaven, she had to have a messiah. like you and me.
Mary must be called a “sinner”, because she had the free will to sin. Take that away from her and you make her into some kind of puppet, you take away her humanity, that humanity that God Himself chose to create because He wanted more than angels .
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Canto
Guest
All scripture not only scripture.
And where in the Bible does it tell us what scripture is?
i.e. Thus says the Lord: “thou shalt have 27 books in a New Testament”
Catholic tradition comes from God. It’s the deposit of faith He left His Church that includes the 73 book bible. “stand fast and hold the traditions which you have learned whether by word [of mouth] or by our epistle.” - 2 Thes 2:15 Two not one.
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mwok
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I thought the Apostles wrote the Bible.
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pablope
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So, RevG…how does the Bible testify to the absolute truth? Does it speak for itself? Does it have a voice?
And how about your opinion? Are we suppose to believe your opinion? What makes your opinion believable? Infallible? Of the highest authority?
Without you realizing it, it is your opinion that is saying Mary is not sinless…the Bible does not say so…it is your opinion and your interpretation.
And you have not responded to this question:
From Luke1:
5 In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron. 6 Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, observing all the Lord’s commands and decrees blamelessly
With the example of Zechariah and Elizbeth being blameless and righteous, don’t you think it is also possible to have been blameless and righteous as Zechariah and Elizabeth?
How about an honest answer?
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pablope
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adrift
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The problem is you took what she said out of context. She didn’t say there was no absolute truth what she said ironically is what you said to TeresaHicks was her “hermeneutic” That is exactly the claim Kathleen was making to you.
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adrift
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Exactly. And the bible says the CHURCH is the Pilar of all truth. So what Church, It has to be the Catholic Church, because no one can deny the Protestant Church did not even exist at the time of Christ.
Again I will point out to you that Scripture does not agree with you. Scripture says that the** Church **is the Pilar of truth not your interpretation of Scripture.
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joe370
Guest
Hey RevG, you said:
However, if the Bible is my final authority, as opposed to you or any one church, then what gives you, or any one church (be it protestant or catholic) - the right to make that authoritative statement?
So it’s my opinion that is contrary to the Bible, therefore my opinion is wrong? Could be…
However, if the Bible is my final authority, as opposed to you or any one church, then what gives you, or any one church (be it protestant or catholic) - the right to make that authoritative statement?
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Nicea325
Guest
Indeed the notorious verse by 2 Tim 3:16 taken out-of-context to prove a false teaching. Look at the first word: ALL. It does not read:
ONLY Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work
You need to accept the hard facts and reality the above verse has been perverted by Protestants for centuries.
Wrong again! ALL scripture is merely oral Apostolic Traditions written down. Second, show me where Jesus or the Apostles taught all oral traditions would cease once written scripture was penned? So you can take it with God why you perverted His words.
Profound misunderstanding by many Protestants. Technically God never wrote a single word on parchment,but he used MEN inspired by God to write His Holy Words. What Protestants forget or out of ignorance do not realize it is not a question of WHO wrote scripture,but HOW did He do it.
Yeah and he also said the CHURCH is the pillar and foundation of Truth. Are you stating God is wrong and you are correcting His error? You are becoming the teacher and not the student;thus,you are being the judge of divine relevation.
BTW: You have yet to show me where JESUS alone teaches Scripture is the final authority?
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KathleenGee
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RevG…I did not say in your interpretation we cannot depend on the Holy Spirit…I am meaning by ourselves – without church…that is what we are talking about – the Church as the true interpreter and not individuals.
If my personal readings are not drawing me back to the truth of Jesus Christ – as defined by our universal (meaning all mankind) Church – then the spirit I am being led by is NOT the Holy Spirit.
Secondly, you make a reference to me of going to hell. You have no right to tell me I am going to hell by your projection onto my words.
That is the issue with fundamentalists – judging people always through this filter, this perception of self-righteousness…and that is…you are assuming you – **by your **man made works in how you interpret Sacred Scriptures – are the one going to heaven.
Subsequently, such thinking causes you to take away the true meaning of Sacred Scriptures --the Eternal Word, Jesus Christ. You are taking away from Him as sole judge to be transferred to yourself, by your own interpretations.
And that is the danger having a book in your hand, is then you put yourself in the driver’s seat as judge and ruler and definer ---- and Not the Holy Spirit!!!
The apostles were in hiding and afraid, even after the Resurrection. It was at Pentecost that the Holy Spirit strengthened the apostles, took away their fear, and led them out into the light to announce the Good News of Jesus Christ.
Pentecost is the beginning of the Church and the beginning of Christ’s Church in practice —Tradition-- filled with the Holy Spirit!!!
Sacred Scripture is not calling us to judge and condemn other people. Sacred Scripture is calling us to Jesus Christ for our salvation and redemption for all.
So, for you RevG, because you can hold the bible in your hands and through this text claim that you alone can judge Scripture and judge others, then you are not operating fully in the Holy Spirit – but in error.
But we won’t dare claim such a stand deserves that specially designed crypt prepared for you in hell either. Only Christ alone can judge.
The nuns always told us that heaven will be full of surprises of those who entered.
The Lord did not call us to be the Lone Ranger with his bible. The Lord has called us to Church to be a gathering of people.
If my personal readings are not drawing me back to the truth of Jesus Christ – as defined by our universal (meaning all mankind) Church – then the spirit I am being led by is NOT the Holy Spirit.
Secondly, you make a reference to me of going to hell. You have no right to tell me I am going to hell by your projection onto my words.
That is the issue with fundamentalists – judging people always through this filter, this perception of self-righteousness…and that is…you are assuming you – **by your **man made works in how you interpret Sacred Scriptures – are the one going to heaven.
Subsequently, such thinking causes you to take away the true meaning of Sacred Scriptures --the Eternal Word, Jesus Christ. You are taking away from Him as sole judge to be transferred to yourself, by your own interpretations.
And that is the danger having a book in your hand, is then you put yourself in the driver’s seat as judge and ruler and definer ---- and Not the Holy Spirit!!!
The apostles were in hiding and afraid, even after the Resurrection. It was at Pentecost that the Holy Spirit strengthened the apostles, took away their fear, and led them out into the light to announce the Good News of Jesus Christ.
Pentecost is the beginning of the Church and the beginning of Christ’s Church in practice —Tradition-- filled with the Holy Spirit!!!
Sacred Scripture is not calling us to judge and condemn other people. Sacred Scripture is calling us to Jesus Christ for our salvation and redemption for all.
So, for you RevG, because you can hold the bible in your hands and through this text claim that you alone can judge Scripture and judge others, then you are not operating fully in the Holy Spirit – but in error.
But we won’t dare claim such a stand deserves that specially designed crypt prepared for you in hell either. Only Christ alone can judge.
The nuns always told us that heaven will be full of surprises of those who entered.
The Lord did not call us to be the Lone Ranger with his bible. The Lord has called us to Church to be a gathering of people.
J
jlhargus
Guest
JL: Yes the bible is God’s inspiried Word and without error. However all interpretations are not without error. That’s clear by thousands different faith groups. All those faith groups claiming to be guided by the SAME Holy Spirit in their, DIFFERENT, interpretations of the SAME scriptures. So if the TRUTH can be known by the Bible ALONE, why are there so many groups? The Bible is Truth, but the Bible must be correctly interpreted.
Sola scriptura is a TOWER OF BABEL. Scattering people of faith, who no longer speak the same FAITH LANGUAGE, into thousands and still doing so. How many denominations has sola scriptura UNITED? How many has it DIVIDED? Those same scripture also tell you the Church is the pillar and ground of TRUTH, 1Tm3:15, how many throw out that page along with the following?
[Mt28:16 Then **THE ELEVEN disciples WENT away into Galilee, INTO A MOUNTAIN where JESUS had APPOINTED them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18 And JESUS came and SPAKE UNTO THEM, saying, ALL POWER IS GIVEN UNTO ME IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH. 19 GO ye therefore, and TEACH ALL NATIONS, BAPTIZING ** them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 TEACHING THEM TO OBSERVE ALL THINGS whatsoever I HAVE COMMANDED YOU: and, lo, ** I AM WITH YOU ALWAYS, even UNTO THE END OF THE WORLD. Amen.]
Don’t we have a resposability to TRUST Christ will keep his word and lead the Church into ALL TRUTH? Isn’t that what your original text the bible tells us? [Jn 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes HE WILL GUIDE YOU INTO ALL THE TRUTH for he will not speak on his own authority but whatever he hears he will speak and he will declare to you the things that are to come] Jn 14:26 But the Comforter which is the Holy Ghost whom the Father will send in my name HE shall TEACH YOU ALL THINGS AND BRING ALL THINGS TO YOUR REMEMBRANCE whatsoever I HAVE SAID UNTO YOU] Christ is speaking to the apostles, by whom the fellowship, Church, will be guided into all truth. Teaching all things whatsoever Christ said, through the Holy Spirit, who will bring to their remembrance all Christ said. Till the end of the world through successors by laying on of hands. Souldn’t we be faithful to the FELLOWSHIP of Christ, the Church the pillar and ground of TRUTH, 1Tm3:15? Isn’t that the faith of the first Christians? What does the original text, the bible, say they did?
[ACTS 2:41 Then THEY THAT gladly RECEIVED HIS WORD WERE BAPTIZED AND the same day there were ADDED UNTO THEM about three thousand souls 42 And THEY CONTINUED stedfastly IN THE APOSTLES DOCTRINE AND FELLOWSHIP and IN BREAKING OF BREAD and IN PRAYERS.] They were ADDED to that ONE VISIBLE body of Christ, the Church. They continued stedfastly in the APOSTLES DOCTRINE, and the APOSTLES FELLOWSHIP. In breaking of bread=Echarist, and in prayers=liturgy. We call it Mass today.
[1Cor 1:9 God is faithful you were called into **THE FELLOWSHIP OF his Son JESUS CHRIST 10 I appeal to you BREATHREN by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that all of you AGREE that there be no dissensions among you that you BE UNITED in the same mind and THE SAME JUDGMENT.
1Jn 4:6 We are of God Whoever knows God LISTENS TO US and he who is not of God DOES NOT LISTEN TO US BY THIS WE KNOW the spirit of TRUTH and the spirit of ERROR] Belonging to that ONE SENT FELLOWSHIP is how we know with assurance TRUTH from ERROR, instead of hit and miss truth and error.
Eph3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And TO MAKE ALL MEN SEE what is THE FELLOWHIP of THE MYSTERY, which from the beginning of the world hath been HID IN GOD, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent THAT NOW unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places MIGHT BE KNOWN BY THE CHURCH THE MANIFOLD WISDOM OF GOD,]
Paul even checked his teaching with that one sent fellowship, to be sure he was not teaching another doctrine or gospel. [Gal2:1 Then fourteen years after **I WENT UP AGAIN TO JERUSALEM with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also. 2 And I went up BY REVELATION, and COMMUNICATED UNTO THEM that GOSPEL which I PREACH among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, LEST BY ANY MEANS I SHOULD run, or HAD RUN, IN VAIN.]
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KathleenGee
Guest
Yes, the Lord will guide us into all Truth----but not judgment of others.
The problem with written word as text, without proper context of the Holy Spirit working through the Church by consecrated souls in spirit and truth – based on actual witnesses of Jesus Christ, the written text is always held by personal bias, personal interpretation.
We are being called to union not only with God, but with God and others – communion.
No man can create communion – the opposite of sin. Only God can forgive sin. Only God can provide us communion of one heart and mind.
The problem with written word as text, without proper context of the Holy Spirit working through the Church by consecrated souls in spirit and truth – based on actual witnesses of Jesus Christ, the written text is always held by personal bias, personal interpretation.
We are being called to union not only with God, but with God and others – communion.
No man can create communion – the opposite of sin. Only God can forgive sin. Only God can provide us communion of one heart and mind.
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Marybeloved
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Frankk
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Richard K and RevG have been absent for some time. Perhaps it is also time for the Mods to lock this thread.
I hope we will all pray they have both seen enough of sheer logic and rationality of the Catholic Truth that they, too, will soon be seen on EWTN’s ‘The Journey Home’.
I hope we will all pray they have both seen enough of sheer logic and rationality of the Catholic Truth that they, too, will soon be seen on EWTN’s ‘The Journey Home’.
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adrift
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I didn’t see anyone else comment on this. I missed it the first time I read it.
I don’t know why you believe that this somehow shows that Revelation did not end with the last apostle. Unless of course, you believe that Revelation was written after the last apostle. There is that false veiwpoint but that is mere speculation without proof.
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adrift
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There are many who do not come everyday to post. Sometimes they want a time to think and to research. RK last posting here was Oct 30 and RevG Nov. 3. I don’t think that is a great deal of time yet. It might mean that they won’t be back but I think it is to soon to believe they won’t be. .
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RevG
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Frankk,
I can promise you that the logic shown here and the rational used will not convince me that my understanding of Scripture is incorrect. In fact the more i read of this logic the more I pray that the people who post these ideas will come to a realization that what they are doing is trying to place things on the same level as God, or even higher. The more I read the more I pray that God will continue to work on people to bring them to a knowledge of His truth. Sadly too many people that post here have placed their faith in the church and not in the Lord.
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Good_Fella
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More accurately, too many people here haven’t placed their faith in RevG.
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RevG
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KathleenGee,
I will venture to say that the aggravation you seem to be exerting here is called conviction. I never accused you of being bound for hell, what I said was if you are placing your faith in anything other than the Spirit of God then eternity will be hot. That statement was not directed at you personally, but a generalized you. If you took it personally then maybe you are saying that your faith is in something other than God, like maybe you placed your faith in the church.
next, I never claimed to be the sole judge of Scripture, I never asserted my self-righteousness, I never tried to be a lone-ranger. If it makes you sleep better at night putting these words in my mouth then sweet dreams to you. It is not my intention by coming to a Catholic website to blast the teachings of the Catholic Church, I am sure many of the teachings are based on Scripture, it is my goal to engage people with an honest look at a text without the filter you assert. Since I am removing the filters I suggest you learn biblical Greek and Hebrew so that you can read the Bible as it was written without the filter of Douay Reims (think that’s misspelled by I feel sure you will know the translation I speak of), Since I have studied the Bible in its original languages for several years, it might be possible that every once in a while I understand the context of a passage that some others might not catch, it is also possible that I am wrong.
See there is the difference between me and you, I rely on the Holy Spirit of God to guide me on the path of righteousness, you seem to rely on some man appointed by the church. correct me if I am wrong. I look forward to the candid responses to this.
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