Mary - sinner - Romans 3?

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More accurately, too many people here haven’t placed their faith in RevG. šŸ˜‰
If they placed their faith in me then they would be just as wrong as placing their faith in the church…there is a phrase in the Bible that tells us where faith belongs…pistis en xristou…faith in Christ…if you put your faith anywhere else you have it in the wrong place…although you might spout heresy you will never find me seeking people placing faith in me
 
If they placed their faith in me then they would be just as wrong as placing their faith in the church…there is a phrase in the Bible that tells us where faith belongs…pistis en xristou…faith in Christ…if you put your faith anywhere else you have it in the wrong place…although you might spout heresy you will never find me seeking people placing faith in me
ā€œWhoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.ā€
Luke 10, 16


Jesus is the Head of the Church, which is His body. So by placing our faith in the teachings of His Church, we thereby place our faith in Him. Our Lord sent the Paraclete to guide the Church in all truth until the end of this age (Jn 14:16; 16:12-13; Mt 28:20). We receive and give our sacred assent to what the Spirit has declared is a revelation from God - and that includes the Immaculate Conception of Mary and her sinless life. St. Paul describes the Church as the ā€œunblemished Bride of Christā€, meaning she is indefectible in her official doctrines. Indivduals like yourself, who believe they are placing their faith in Christ by appealing to the written word of God, are actually placing their faith in their own fallible understanding of the word. You cannot be certain of understanding what is really true without the promised guaranty of the Holy Spirit, whose seal protects the Magisterium of the Church alone from teaching error to the faithful…

To me, the very least of all the holy ones, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the inscrutable riches of Christ, and to bring to light for all what is the plan of the mystery hidden from ages past in God who created all things, so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the Church to the principalities and authorities in the heavens.
Ephesians 3, 8-10

ā€œFor where the Church is, there is the Spirit of God; and where the Spirit of God is, there is the Church, and every kind of grace; but the Spirit is truth.ā€
St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3.24 (A.D. 180)

PAX
:heaven:
 
If they placed their faith in me then they would be just as wrong as placing their faith in the church…there is a phrase in the Bible that tells us where faith belongs…pistis en xristou…faith in Christ…if you put your faith anywhere else you have it in the wrong place…although you might spout heresy you will never find me seeking people placing faith in me
You continue to ignore that God said the Church was the pillar and foundation of truth.

Good Fella has it right.šŸ‘
 
Frankk,

I can promise you that the logic shown here and the rational used will not convince me that my understanding of Scripture is incorrect. In fact the more i read of this logic the more I pray that the people who post these ideas will come to a realization that what they are doing is trying to place things on the same level as God, or even higher. The more I read the more I pray that God will continue to work on people to bring them to a knowledge of His truth. Sadly too many people that post here have placed their faith in the church and not in the Lord.
Why are you here ā€œRevā€?
 
If they placed their faith in me then they would be just as wrong as placing their faith in the church
Ah, so here’s the irony. YOU place your faith in the Church each and every time you quote Galatians, Hebrews, Titus as inspired, but don’t quote the Odes of Solomon, Gospel of Thomas, Didache because they are not inspired.

The only way you know that the above books are *theopneustos *is because you put your faith in the Church’s ability to discern what was God-breathed.
 
If they placed their faith in me then they would be just as wrong as placing their faith in the church…there is a phrase in the Bible that tells us where faith belongs…pistis en xristou…faith in Christ…if you put your faith anywhere else you have it in the wrong place…although you might spout heresy you will never find me seeking people placing faith in me
Catholics look to the Pope and expect the Pope to uphold Church teachings, and the teachings are based on scripture and tradition. We place our faith in the Pope in this manner, but it is Our Lord who saves.

The Pope does not invent doctrine based on his personal opinion of scripture. He hands down the dogma of faith as it has been handed down since the days of the Apostles. That’s why dogmas don’t change. They can’t change, because truth doesn’t change. Certain matters of discipline can be changed by a Pope, but not the basics of our belief.
 
Frankk,

I can promise you that the logic shown here and the rational used will not convince me that my understanding of Scripture is incorrect. In fact the more i read of this logic the more I pray that the people who post these ideas will come to a realization that what they are doing is trying to place things on the same level as God, or even higher.
It is odd, though, that you have no logic to explain how the Church operated [or even survived] when there was no written NT in the 1st Century.

Nor how Christians relied on Sola Scriptura during the second century when they could quite reasonably make their arguments from the Gospel of Thomas or of Mary or of James…

And others have pointed out how you, relying absolutely on Scripture, ignore the fact that nowhere in Scripture is the doctrine of relying only on the Bible mentioned - whilst, in contrast, holding to Tradition is clearly mentioined.

And, again, how Luther who founded Sola Scriptura quickly fell out with Zwingli and Calvin - who were all quoting the Absolute Truth in the Bible but coming to VERY DIFFERENT interpretations and, thereby, having fundamental doctrinal differences.

It is all very, very odd. And totally illogical. Unless, of course, you can bring some logic to it?
 
Rev G…I am talking over your head…I am not troubled by your impression that I putting my faith in men. No I am not speaking from being convicted…not at all…but am responding to your condemnation of Christ’s Church.

Not recognizing Christ established His Church, ignoring Church history, the practice of worship, creed, ecclesial administration…all comes from the apostles.

It is just that we are talking on two different levels, and the fact that you are now accusing me of putting my faith in men…makes me want to ask you, what fundamentalist church do you belong to and where is it?..

I do not accept any interpretation of man, but that only give us by the Apostles…the only witnesses of Jesus Christ.

People can read translations, but miss the interior spirit of the readings. The Lord is creator of communion, not division and self-righteousness. I stand by Christ in the witness of faith and tradition given us by the Apostles, enduring in the Holy Spirit Who has never left His Church.
 
Frankk,

I can promise you that the logic shown here and the rational used will not convince me that my understanding of Scripture is incorrect. In fact the more i read of this logic the more I pray that the people who post these ideas will come to a realization that what they are doing is trying to place things on the same level as God, or even higher. The more I read the more I pray that God will continue to work on people to bring them to a knowledge of His truth. Sadly too many people that post here have placed their faith in the church and not in the Lord.
JL: Mt18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but IF HE NEGLECT TO HEAR THE CHURCH, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

1Tm3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is THE CHURCH of the living God, the PILLAR AND GROUND OF THE TRUTH.

The following links are my post giving scripture evidence for the Catholic Church.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7447593&postcount=987

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7447600&postcount=988

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7447604&postcount=989

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7447619&postcount=990

Show me in scripture sola scriptura, OSAS, baptism a confession only, secret rapture, all oral Tradition now found in scripture, born again when we first have a conversion expirence and believe? These are a few teachings that NOT only fall outside the pages of scripture. They actually CONTRADICT scripture. They are traditions of men made doctrines to nullifiy scripture.
 
If they placed their faith in me then they would be just as wrong as placing their faith in the church…there is a phrase in the Bible that tells us where faith belongs…pistis en xristou…faith in Christ…if you put your faith anywhere else you have it in the wrong place…although you might spout heresy you will never find me seeking people placing faith in me
JL: Without FAITH IN CHRIST I could not trust His Church. It is Christ himself who tells us to listen to those He sends. Jn13: 20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I SEND receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that SENT me.
 
Why are you here ā€œRevā€?
I think that this question is unnecessary, because we are here to discuss religion and we should expect opposing viewpoints. If what we believe is truth it will stand up to scrutiny and challenges. This is great exercise for a budding apologist, because these same arguments will be met on the streets where we live.

At least we can air our differences and agree to disagree. The true beneficiaries are probably among those unable or unwilling to post, they may learn a lot, and perhaps something someone posts here will work on them, open their hearts and make them receptive to the Holy Spirit. šŸ™‚
 
I think that this question is unnecessary, because we are here to discuss religion and we should expect opposing viewpoints. If what we believe is truth it will stand up to scrutiny and challenges. This is great exercise for a budding apologist, because these same arguments will be met on the streets where we live.

At least we can air our differences and agree to disagree. The true beneficiaries are probably among those unable or unwilling to post, they may learn a lot, and perhaps something someone posts here will work on them, open their hearts and make them receptive to the Holy Spirit. šŸ™‚
JL: šŸ‘
 
it is my goal to engage people with an honest look at a text without the filter you assert. Since I am removing the filters
JL: No so what you are doing is adding yours or your Baptist filters.
I suggest you learn biblical Greek and Hebrew so that you can read the Bible as it was written without the filter of Douay Reims (think that’s misspelled by I feel sure you will know the translation I speak of),
JL: The Douay Rheims is as good as any other translation and better than some. So everyone must learn biblical Greek and Hebrew to really understand the bible. Then those who don’t know or are not capable of learning Greek and Hebrew can’t rely on sola scriptura. Well you are correct on that point, sola scriptura scatters. Then on whom or what are they to rely?

That’s why God appointed and SENT the apostles and their successors (magisterium) to TEACH the WHOLE WORLD till the END of the age, Mt28:16-20. That teaching authority is passed on by laying on of hands. From the apostles to bishops to bishops in an UNBROKEN line till the end. [2Tm1:6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up THE GIFT OF GOD, which is IN THEE BY the PUTTING ON OF MY HANDS.]

Aren’t you really contradicting sola scriptura? Saying to understand scripture we need to know Greek and Hebrew. Aren’t you unknowingly saying sola scriptura is not possible except for those who know Greek and Hebrew. That means everyone else is dependent on those who know Greek and Hebrew. Creating a, tradition of men, teaching authority (magisterium). I will stick with the Apostolic Fellowship Christ SENT.
Since I have studied the Bible in its original languages for several years, it might be possible that every once in a while I understand the context of a passage that some others might not catch, it is also possible that I am wrong.
JL: Yes it is possible once in a while you may understand the context others might not. It is also possible that you could be wrong. That’s a good description of sola scriptura, hit and miss truth. Our Lord promised to guide the Apostolic Fellowship into ALL TRUTH, Jn16:13, not hit and miss truth.
See there is the difference between me and you, I rely on the Holy Spirit of God to guide me on the path of righteousness, you seem to rely on some man appointed by the church. correct me if I am wrong. I look forward to the candid responses to this.
JL: Yes the Holy Spirit guides (by conviction) all his people on the path of righteousness. However the Holy Spirit does not guide every Christian in interpretation of scripture. We have thousands of faith groups to prove that fact.
 
Originally Posted by RevG
See there is the difference between me and you, I rely on the Holy Spirit of God to guide me on the path of righteousness, you seem to rely on some man appointed by the church. correct me if I am wrong. I look forward to the candid responses to this.
The above is false and a contradiction to God. Did not Jesus pick 12 men to guide and lead His church under the Holy Spirit as promised? If God found them useless,then why bother to assign them an office?
 
Exactly. He does not understand that Catholicism is based on the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ through Oral Tradition, given us by actual witnesses…the apostles.

Studying Scripture through Apostolic succession vs the individual ends up being in different places…we all believe in Christ, but we relate to Him as a church, not individual.
 
16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work. (ESV)

All scripture…not traditions of the catholic church. If you take issue with this take it up with God. He wrote the Bible not the catholic church, He preserved the Bible. He said the Bible (Scripture) is God breathed, and that through it we may be equipped for every good work.
JL: It has already been pointed out those verses you posted do not say scripture only, #762 . It has also already been pointed out that Paul is telling Timothy to use BOTH ORAL Traditions and SCRIPTURE, #765 . I want to make another point. Who is to teach, reprove, correct, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work?

2Tm4:1 I CHARGE THEE therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 PREACH THE WORD; be instant in season, out of season; REPROVE, REBUKE, EXHORT WITH all long suffering and DOCTRINE. 3 For THE TIME WILL COME WHEN THEY WILL NOT ENDURE SOUND DOCTRINE; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 AND THEY SHALL TURN AWAY THEIR EARS FROM THE TRUTH, and shall be turned unto fables. 5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, MAKE FULL PROOF OF THY MINISTRY]

[Titus2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. 15 **THESE THINGS SPEAK, and EXHORT, and REBUKE WITH ALL AUTHORITY. Let no man despise thee.] It is a SENT ordained minister of the Church, by laying on of hands, who is to reprove, rebuke and exhort with all AUTHORITY.

[Hb13:7 **REMEMBER THEM WHICH HAVE THE RULE OVER YOU, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.]

[Hb13:17 **OBEY THEM THAT HAVE THE RULE OVER YOU, and submit yourselves: for THEY WATCH FOR YOUR SOULS, as THEY that MUST GIVE ACCOUNT, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.]

[Hb13:24 **SALUTE ALL THEM THAT HAVE THE RULE OVER YOU, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you.]

[2Thes3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye **WITHDRAW yourselves **FROM EVERY BROTHER THAT WALKETH **disorderly, and **NOT AFTER THE TRADITION **which he RECEIVED OF US.]

2Thes3:14 Whereunto he called you by OUR GOSPEL, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and **HOLD THE TRADITIONS **which ye have been taught, WHETHER BY word, OR our epistle.

[2 TIM 1:13 HOLD FAST THE form of SOUND WORDS, which thou hast HEARD OF ME, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 14 That good thing which was COMMITTED unto thee KEEP ****BY THE HOLY GHOST **which dwelleth IN US.]

2Tm 1:6 Hence I remind you to REKINDLE THE GIFT OF GOD that is WITHIN YOU THROUGH THE LAYING ON OF MY HANDS 7 for God did not give us a spirit of timidity but a spirit of POWER and love and self control

You can’t post from any book of the bible telling us ALL Tradition is now found in scripture. Because that is a tradition of men. A tradition of men outside sola scriptura your own rule of faith. That means you use more than sola scriptura as a rule of faith authority.
 
16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work. (ESV)

All scripture…not traditions of the catholic church. If you take issue with this take it up with God. He wrote the Bible not the catholic church, He preserved the Bible. He said the Bible (Scripture) is God breathed, and that through it we may be equipped for every good work.
JL: It has already been pointed out those verses you posted do not say scripture only, forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8535721&postcount=762. It has also been pointed out that Paul is telling Timothy to use BOTH ORAL Traditions and SCRIPTURE, starting with verse14 forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8535769&postcount=765. I want to make another point on those verses you posted. Who is to teach, reprove, correct, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work?

2Tm4:1 I CHARGE THEE therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 PREACH THE WORD; be instant in season, out of season; **REPROVE, REBUKE, EXHORT WITH **all long suffering and DOCTRINE. 3 For THE TIME WILL COME WHEN THEY WILL NOT ENDURE SOUND DOCTRINE; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 AND THEY SHALL TURN AWAY THEIR EARS FROM THE TRUTH, and shall be turned unto fables. 5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, MAKE FULL PROOF OF THY MINISTRY]

[Titus2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. 15 **THESE THINGS SPEAK, and EXHORT, and REBUKE WITH ALL AUTHORITY. Let no man despise thee.] It is a SENT ordained minister of the Church, by laying on of hands, who is to reprove, rebuke and exhort with all AUTHORITY. Making full use of their ministry.

[Hb13:7 **REMEMBER THEM WHICH HAVE THE RULE OVER YOU, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.]

[Hb13:17 **OBEY THEM THAT HAVE THE RULE OVER YOU, and submit yourselves: for THEY WATCH FOR YOUR SOULS, as THEY that MUST GIVE ACCOUNT, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.]

[Hb13:24 **SALUTE ALL THEM THAT HAVE THE RULE OVER YOU, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you.]

[2Thes3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye **WITHDRAW yourselves **FROM EVERY BROTHER THAT WALKETH **disorderly, and **NOT AFTER THE TRADITION **which he RECEIVED OF US.]

2Thes3:14 Whereunto he called you by OUR GOSPEL, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and **HOLD THE TRADITIONS **which ye have been taught, WHETHER BY word, OR our epistle.

[2 TIM 1:13 HOLD FAST THE form of SOUND WORDS, which thou hast HEARD OF ME, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 14 That good thing which was COMMITTED unto thee KEEP ****BY THE HOLY GHOST **which dwelleth IN US.]

2Tm 1:6 Hence I remind you to REKINDLE THE GIFT OF GOD that is WITHIN YOU THROUGH THE LAYING ON OF MY HANDS 7 for God did not give us a spirit of timidity but a spirit of POWER and love and self control

You can’t post from any book of the bible telling us ALL Tradition is now found in scripture. Because that is a tradition of men. A tradition of men outside sola scriptura your own rule of faith. That means you use more than sola scriptura as a rule of faith authority.
 
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