Mary Statues

[gardenswithkids]

I didn’t mean to that all our art shows a pregnant Mary, but I thought mentioning that possibility might help you when you see statues of Mary. Pregnant women don’t start showing for three or four months. (And the location of the belt in the picture of Our Lady of Guadalupe is where women in that culture wore their belts when pregnant so that picture clearly indicated Jesus within her womb.)

I don’t carry a picture of my mother-in-law in my wallet either, but her picture is hanging on my wall near a picture of my own parents. If I wasn’t married to her son, there is no way that picture would be there. You say your wife loves your mom, but would she spend major holidays with the woman if it wasn’t for you?

I honor my mother-in-law because of her son. Your wife loves your mother probably because of you. If Christ is the Bridegroom and His Church the Bride, what does that make Mary, and how does He want us to treat her?

 

[Mickey]

ruzz:

I’m sorry, but the Mary statues I’ve seen do not depict a pregnant Mary. Her arms are outstretched and she looks quite un-preg. If she were pregnant, I could see your point.

Are you trying to be sarcastic? Many icons of Mary depict her holding child. The statues of Mary alone depict the image of Mary the saint. Mary full of grace. Mary the mother of God.

ruzz:

If Christ is the center and the point of Christianity, why NOT honor HIM and have a statue of CHRIST to remind us of Christ? Isn’t a Mary statue kind of indirect and not Christ centered?

Of course we have images of Christ.
Do you really believe that we are not Christ centered? For if you believe that, then there is no reason for futher constructive discourse, is there?

 

[SusanL]

Ok. I will do the best I can to explain why I have statues of Mary in our house and why I would like one outside in our yard.

I love Jesus more than anything. It is reflected in what I do and say and think. I have pictures of him everywhere in the house.
I love his mother, too. She is my mother. Mary points my heart to Jesus. When I see her I think of how she acted towards her son. How she responded to the will of our Father. I think of how she is reaching out to us today through Fatima and other visionaries.

Here is the crux of it. Protestants do not understand nor do they believe in Mary like Catholics do. I remember a Lutheran minister who told me that Catholics overdid their veneration of Mary and protestants just consider her as a womb. He believed that it really should be somewhere in the middle.

I believe that Mary is reaching out to us today pleading with us to convert our hearts and turn to God in prayer. She brings us her son and begs us to turn our hearts to love. In that way will the world be converted

In putting a statue of Mary outside, I am telling the world that I love Jesus’ mother, too.

When one sees Mary…one sees Jesus. You cannot separate the two of them in your mind.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

If Christ is our Redeemer, and our Brother, and God is our Father, and all the saints in heaven are part of the family of God, then why NOT have statues, paintings, pictures, and other reminders of them?

One of the richest things about the Catholic faith is that in our centering on God as our Creator and Savior, we also INCLUDE all our brothers and sisters in our thoughts and actions as well. We don’t just think of “God and I” but of “God, MY NEIGHBOR, and I”. . .kind of what He told us to do as the Greatest Commandment.

By and large, those people with “Mary” statues (or St. Francis, or St. Joseph, or any of the many wonderful saints who are our living brothers and sisters in the Kingdom of Heaven, part of the “cloud of witnesses” described by Paul), have “Jesus” statues, crucifixes, Bibles, paintings, chaplets/ rosaries, etc. as well. As I said, it’s a very rich heritage, Catholicism.

To make the assumption that because you see “more” of one type of statue in ONE neighborhood in ONE city in ONE state in ONE country, means that Jesus is NEGLECTED or that another is PREFERRED, IDOLIZED, or WORSHIPPED, would be like me thinking, because I walked down a street and saw a lot of children’s bicycles, that the children must be very physically fit and never bother to read. . .based solely on the evidence that I see BIKES out there but not any BOOKS. Obviously, not only might the children NOT be very physically fit (seen the stats on childhood obesity lately?), they might also be great readers. Or they might be adequate riders and adequate readers. . .or they might be less than adequate riders and less than adequate readers. . …

You get the point. You can’t really make the type of judgment that you did in the OP from the material available.

 

[ruzz]

Della:

And you know what a woman who has just become pregnant would look like? What a typical male answer! :whacky: Besides, Mary wasn’t pregnant the whole of her earthly life, so why shouldn’t she be depicted as not pregnant?

I guess she could be pregnant. I do know what my wife looked like when she became pregnant.

Mary is not only Jesus’ mother but the mother of all Christians, that’s why we keep pictures and statues of her.

Sorry, I guess we don’t agree. Eve was the mother of all mankind. But Mary? Mother to Jesus, Yes. All Christians, I’m not sure. Jesus needs to be the center of Christianity. Anything else dilutes that.

Many people do have statues of Jesus. And no, a statue of Mary isn’t an “indirect” way of honoring Christ. It is one of the most biblical ways to honor him by honoring Mary who was essential to the Incarnation. Wanting to have Christ and not his Mother says more about Protestant minimalism than it does about Catholic devotion.

I’m not trying to minimalize her. However, Christ is the center of my faith. No other human comes close to God and His Son Jesus Christ. No apostle, no bishop, not even Mary.

JFYI, Mel Gibson traveled around to many Protestant churches to show his film, The Passion of the Christ, to Protestant ministers. Nearly all of them said they were most struck by the portrayal of Mary. They hadn’t really thought about how much she was involved in the life of her Son and his disciples. They said it made them think about that more and how Protestantism doesn’t honor Mary enough. And they are right about that.

Mel definately took some poetic license in the film. A great film nonetheless.
Hey, Mary was highly favored to be chosen to give birth to Jesus. Outside of church tradition, one is hard pressed to really find much mention of her in the biblical record. However, there could be a lot of arguments to point to Mary Magdalene as having a large role in Jesus’ ministry.

We Catholics don’t worship Mary. We have meditated on her role in salvation history for 2000 years while Protestants have been trying to eliminate her from their lives for nearly 500 years. It’s no wonder Protestants can’t understand Catholic devotion when they have little to no love for her.

Hey, I don’t mean to insult Mary devotion. That’s a whole different thread. This has gotten off the track of Christian art and Mary statues.
I don’t think you mean Mary had a role in salvation for 2000 years. Jesus is the ONLY one who can do that. You probably meant 2000 years of Mary devotion. No question she was special.
I don’t think protestants try to eliminate her. After all, Martin Luther was very devoted to Mary and the church. It wasn’t an overnight event. The two moved slowly in opposite directions with regard to Mary devotion.

I’m coming to the impression that many people put Mary statues in front of their yards to advertise their pride in their catholicism. It doesn’t mean they love Jesus less.

.

 

[ruzz]

Tantum ergo:

If Christ is our Redeemer, and our Brother, and God is our Father, and all the saints in heaven are part of the family of God, then why NOT have statues, paintings, pictures, and other reminders of them?

Christ is our Redeemer, and our “Brother”??​

Why not have statues? That’s another thread on the 2nd commandment. Not my point here.

My point is why do I see Mary statues and NO Jesus art in the front of the house.

Traditionally, people decorate the fronts of their homes with what they are most proud of for the world to see. The insides and backyards are more private for invited guests. You rarely see people put elaborate Christmas decorations in the backyard.

.

 

[SusanL]

ruzz:

Sorry, I guess we don’t agree. Eve was the mother of all mankind. But Mary? Mother to Jesus, Yes. All Christians, I’m not sure. Jesus needs to be the center of Christianity. Anything else dilutes that.

I don’t think you mean Mary had a role in salvation for 2000 years. Jesus is the ONLY one who can do that. You probably meant 2000 years of Mary devotion.
.

1.) When Jesus was dying on the cross, he said to his disciple, “There is your mother.” We also interpret that to mean she is the mother of all of us. The spiritual mother. Eve was the biological mother. Jesus is the center of our faith. Mary doesn’t dilute that. When you see Mary, you automatically think of Jesus. Even a protestant would think of Jesus. Hence, Mary points our hearts to Jesus.

2.) Fatima, Lourdes, Guadaloupe, etc. Mary didn’t have to die on the cross to play a role in salvation history. She played a role in it. Jesus came to us through Mary 2000 years ago and he still does today.

 

[SusanL]

ruzz:

Christ is our Redeemer, and our “Brother”??​

Why not have statues? That’s another thread on the 2nd commandment. Not my point here.

My point is why do I see Mary statues and NO Jesus art in the front of the house.

Traditionally, people decorate the fronts of their homes with what they are most proud of for the world to see. The insides and backyards are more private for invited guests. You rarely see people put elaborate Christmas decorations in the backyard.

.

1.) I get really offended when people accuse us of idolotry. It’s not only untrue but uneducated.

2.) How do you decorate the front of your home. Should I assume that it is full of Jesus pictures, crosses, etc?

 

[SusanL]

“Honor thy father and thy mother.”

We are honoring the mother of Jesus.

 

[Mickey]

1.) I get really offended when people accuse us of idolotry. It’s not only untrue but uneducated.

2.) How do you decorate the front of your home. Should I assume that it is full of Jesus pictures, crosses, etc?

Susan,

Our friend Ruzz began as a seemingly honest person asking questions, but his anti-Catholic attacks are beginning to surface. You could write all day and he would not hear you. Revisionist theology will do that to a person.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Traditionally, people decorate the fronts of their homes with what they are most proud of for the world to see

Incomplete. People decorate the fronts of their homes (and the backs, and the insides) for ALL SORTS OF REASONS.

Again, you are talking about one area–your neighborhood, and a certain percentage of homes. And you are still making the unwarranted assumptions that: 1. People put out statues of Mary because they’re proud of her (sole reason) and are NOT proud of Jesus? and 2. Putting out statues of Mary implies that Jesus is being neglected.

Again, in the gardens (front and back) in MY neighborhood we have about, say, 10% Mary statues, 10% St. Francis, 10% Jesus statues. Well, you’ll say that there are twice as many Non-Jesus statues as Jesus statues, I suppose. Point is, I can tell you that, say, one of those Mary statues is 50 years old, two are at least 30 years old, three 10 years, and two less than 5 years old. The oldest statue was bought to celebrate the birth of a daughter (named for Mary, obviously). One Mary statue was bought after the family went to Lourdes. A couple were bought because the family wanted to encourage devotion to the Holy Family (these are the ones who ALSO have Jesus statues outside as well). The St. Francis statues belong to people who work for the town Humane Society; the town vet, one belongs to a man who bought it from his old parish (St. Francis) when the parish was “renovating”. . .

I’m proud of my devotion (not worship) of Mary and the saints, but I ADORE God. So do the people with the statues I spoke of.

But I tell you what, if you really want to do something about the apparent “imbalance” in your area, why not ask the people themselves why they have Mary statues and not Jesus statues? That way, you’ll know their motives for sure. Maybe they’ll invite you in to see their picture of the Last Supper, or their crucifix. Maybe not.

Or maybe you can be the new style maven and put out a nice Jesus statue yourself.

 

[SusanL]

Mickey:

Susan,

Our friend Ruzz began as a seemingly honest person asking questions, but his anti-Catholic attacks are beginning to surface. You could write all day and he would not hear you. Revisionist theology will do that to a person.

Yes, Mickey, I think you’re right. That happens all too often here. People start off writing a seemingly curious, wanting to know what you think post when in reality it is prepping us for a discourse on “how wrong we all are.”

You know, it hurts when they do that. I used to be Protestant and I so badly want to share what I’ve learned but they don’t want to honestly discuss it. There are many people who only want to prove you wrong rather than do an honest search for the truth—wherever that leads.

I would honestly listen and look for answers if I didn’t know them provided they were really interested in the truth.

ugh

 

[ruzz]

Oh man, this got off onto a discussion of Mary and devotion etc… THAT is NOT my question. It’s the artwork that depicts her. Christian art fascinates me.
Tantum ergo:

But I tell you what, if you really want to do something about the apparent “imbalance” in your area, why not ask the people themselves why they have Mary statues and not Jesus statues? That way, you’ll know their motives for sure. Maybe they’ll invite you in to see their picture of the Last Supper, or their crucifix. Maybe not.

I’ve been in many homes and they do have crucifixes on their walls, etc. You don’t want to know what THEY told me about why they have them out there. However, most of them are what I’d call luke warm catholics. Go to mass 3 times a year. Not very good representatives. People on this forum seem like the real deal. I thought I’d get more accurate responses here.

I think what I’m hearing is it’s out of love for Mary. They put their love of Christ and Mary in almost the same breath.

Or maybe you can be the new style maven and put out a nice Jesus statue yourself.

Another topic.

.

 

[Mickey]

SusanL:

Yes, Mickey, I think you’re right. That happens all too often here. People start off writing a seemingly curious, wanting to know what you think post when in reality it is prepping us for a discourse on “how wrong we all are.”

You know, it hurts when they do that. I used to be Protestant and I so badly want to share what I’ve learned but they don’t want to honestly discuss it. There are many people who only want to prove you wrong rather than do an honest search for the truth—wherever that leads.

I would honestly listen and look for answers if I didn’t know them provided they were really interested in the truth.

ugh

I know. it’s so sad. You prepare for an enlightening conversation, and all you get is a set-up.

 

[Michael_C]

After reading this thread I’m glad I have a statue of the Holy family in my yard. As far as statues of Mary being accurate my response is do people complain about an accurate version of the cross? There are so many versions of a cross and some peopel even believe Jesus was crucified on a tree with a cross beam. I don’t believe it’s relevant. I venerate Mary wether she is portrayed japanese, spanish or african.

Breifly - my conversion consisted of a prayer to an angel that led me to Mary who pointed me to Jesus.

 

[SusanL]

ruzz:

I think what I’m hearing is it’s out of love for Mary. They put their love of Christ and Mary in almost the same breath.

.

Yes, but keep in mind that we can absolutely love a lot of people/saints without diluting our love for Christ (or our adoration of him). It only deepens our love for Jesus.

I recognize that this is heavy stuff. It is not easy to digest or accept for protestants (remember, I was once protestant, myself). You have to mull it over for a long time and pray for guidance.

Praying is the best bet. I also recognize that you love Jesus and you trust him. Who knows? Maybe this interest in christian art will inspire other thoughts as well. Wherever they may lead.

Your sister in Christ,

Sue

 

[ruzz]

SusanL:

Yes, Mickey, I think you’re right. That happens all too often here. People start off writing a seemingly curious, wanting to know what you think post when in reality it is prepping us for a discourse on “how wrong we all are.”

You know, it hurts when they do that.

SusanL,
My appologies for offending you. That is NOT my intention and I appologize to anyone who I have offended. I am sincerely very curious about Christian art and symbology and meaning of it to people.
This thread got off track and into a discussion of Mary and her role in Christianity which is off the topic.

Let me just state that I have a friend who invited me to this forum for answers who has educated me a lot about catholic doctrine. I do NOT think catholics worship Mary or any of those false sterotypes.

I used to be Protestant and I so badly want to share what I’ve learned but they don’t want to honestly discuss it. There are many people who only want to prove you wrong rather than do an honest search for the truth—wherever that leads.

And I was raised catholic, baptised and confirmed. All of my family is catholic and I respect catholics. I will admit that I have issues with doctrine and the authority of the papacy, but I respect catholics. Especially educated ones. I do NOT respect anyone who calls themselves a Christian just because they go to church 3 times a year. That doesn’t cut it.

I hope that my opinions don’t offend anyone. However, they are my opinions. I am not closed minded that I won’t listen to others. If our discussions make each of us think, then they are productive.

Pax Vobiscum.

.

 

[Della]

I don’t think you mean Mary had a role in salvation for 2000 years. Jesus is the ONLY one who can do that. You probably meant 2000 years of Mary devotion. No question she was special.
I don’t think protestants try to eliminate her. After all, Martin Luther was very devoted to Mary and the church. It wasn’t an overnight event. The two moved slowly in opposite directions with regard to Mary devotion.

But, that is what I meant. Mary hasn’t been “out of the loop” for 2000 years. After standing at the foot of Jesus’ cross, she was there in the Upper Room, she lived with John and was revered by the early Church. After she left this world she took her place in heaven and has been very busy helping people love and trust in her Son down through the centuries.

You have a misconception of the Communion of Saints, I think. That is truly where your difficulties lie. That and in the fact that you have a very limited understanding of what Christianity and the Gospel are. It might get you to heaven but “not in style”.

 

[gardenswithkids]

ruzz:

This has gotten off the track of Christian art and Mary statues.

Dear Ruzz,
Thank you for coming to this forum and I hope we can help you reconcile the issues that made you leave the Church in the first place. I want to back up to what you said earlier about art being a distraction because I think you’re a logical guy who wants to be consistent.

Many protestants have children’s Bible stories in their homes that show illustrations of Noah, Moses, Jesus and the apostles. Few would suggest that those illustrated books contain idols or distract from the story.

For years and years Christian churches were filled with peasants who had neither the funds to buy a hand written Bibles nor the ability to read one if given one. The stained glass windows, paintings and statues told stories, similarly to how pictures in a child’s Bible storybook tells stories. (Except the art is much grander, more more (name removed by moderator)ired usually in those old churches.)

Yes art can be misused by some. But so can music. The beautiful (or off key) sounds of a choir can be distracting in a church service. Most churches have contoversy over musical styles from time to time. To be consistent with your argument against art, shouldn’t you exclude music too?

And what about words? Words can be distracting too. Preachers are constantly interupting peoples’ prayers and daydreams during church.

Art, music and words are forms of human expression. The statues in our gardens are no more idols than the pictures in your Bible story books. The stained glass windows are probably less distracting than the organist, (unless they are shattered by someone hitting a bad note.) The ancient saints illustrated on our walls are not nearly as distracting as those live potential saints sitting next to us or preaching to us.

 

[ruzz]

gardenswithkids:

Dear Ruzz,
Thank you for coming to this forum and I hope we can help you reconcile the issues that made you leave the Church in the first place. I want to back up to what you said earlier about art being a distraction because I think you’re a logical guy who wants to be consistent.

Many protestants have children’s Bible stories in their homes that show illustrations of Noah, Moses, Jesus and the apostles. Few would suggest that those illustrated books contain idols or distract from the story.

For years and years Christian churches were filled will pessants who had neither the funds to buy a hand written Bibles nor the ability to read one if given one. The stained glass windows, paintings and statues told stories, similarly to how pictures in a child’s Bible storybook tells stories. Except the art is much grander, more more (name removed by moderator)ired usually in old churches.

Yes art can be misused by some. But so can music. The beautiful (or off key) sounds of a choir can be distracting in a church service. Most churches have contoversy over musical styles from time to time. To be consistent with your argument against art, shouldn’t you exclude music too?

And what about words? Words can be distracting too. Preachers are constantly interupting peoples’ prayers and daydreams during church.

Art, music and words are forms of human expression. The statues in our gardens are no more idols than the pictures in your Bible story books. The stained glass windows are probably less distracting than the organist, (unless they are shattered by someone hitting a bad note.) The ancient saints illustrated on our walls are not nearly as distracting as those live potential saints sitting next to us or preaching to us.

You make some good points. Especially with the history of “visual aids”.

Thank you.

.