mary, the eternal virgin?

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elvisman said:
Doki** – we already had this exchange a couple of months ago in the other thread about Mary’s virginity.**

Matt. 1:25** proves NOTHING** about virginity because the word “until” doesn’t mean what you want it to mean. It says:
“He had no relations with her until she bore a son, and he named him Jesus.”

Let’s see what the Scriptures say about the use of the word, “until**”:

2 Samuel 6:23** tells us: Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child until** the day of her death.
Are we to assume that Michal had children after** she died*?*

Let’s also examine Acts 2:34-35 (also see Psalm 110:1, Matt 22:44): For David did not go up into heaven, but he himself said: 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool."’
Are we to surmise that Jesus will cease to sit at the right hand of the Father after his enemies are made his footstool? He is ETERNALLY present at his right hand.

The problem here is that the anti-Catholic attempts to apply 21st century English to Hebrew and Greek from a culture thousands of years ago. It simply *doesn’t *work, friend.
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I know what you believe about Matthew 1:25. You have to believe that or your doctrine of Mary’s perpetual virginity makes no sense.

As I’ve said before, context tells us everything. The Samuel verse is obvious. It’s also the OT which originally is in a different language, as you know. I’ve shown the same Greek word in the NT and several uses of ‘until’ or ‘til’ that is obvious a change happened after ‘until’. Would you like me to look them up and post them for you?

Context, context, context.

Honestly, if Matthew 1:25 was about any other couples in the Bible, what would be the logical conclusion — was there ‘marital relations’ after the birth of the child.
 
Dokimas said:
I know what you believe about Matthew 1:25. You have to believe that or your doctrine of Mary’s perpetual virginity makes no sense.

As I’ve said before, context tells us everything. The Samuel verse is obvious. It’s also the OT which originally is in a different language, as you know. I’ve shown the same Greek word in the NT and several uses of ‘until’ or ‘til’ that is obvious a change happened after ‘until’. Would you like me to look them up and post them for you?

Context, context, context.

Honestly, if Matthew 1:25 was about any other couples in the Bible, what would be the logical conclusion — was there ‘marital relations’ after the birth of the child.
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Wrong again.
The Greek word for "until" used in the Septuagint (2 Sam 6:23) and in Matt. 1:25 is the exact same word, “Heos”. the definition of heos has several meanings:
**Of uncertain affinity; a conjunction, preposition and adverb of
continuance, until (of time and place):-even (until, unto), (as) far
(as), how long, (un-)til(-l), (hither-, un-, up) to, while(-s).
**
As you can see - it doesn’t fit exclusively into your narrow parameters.

**Sorry **
 
Dokimas said:
I know what you believe about Matthew 1:25. You have to believe that or your doctrine of Mary’s perpetual virginity makes no sense.

As I’ve said before, context tells us everything. The Samuel verse is obvious. It’s also the OT which originally is in a different language, as you know. I’ve shown the same Greek word in the NT and several uses of ‘until’ or ‘til’ that is obvious a change happened after ‘until’. Would you like me to look them up and post them for you?

Context, context, context.

Honestly, if Matthew 1:25 was about any other couples in the Bible, what would be the logical conclusion — was there ‘marital relations’ after the birth of the child.
Click to expand...
Wrong again.

The Greek word for "until" used in the Septuagint (2 Sam 6:23) and in Matt. 1:25 is the exact same word, “Heos”. the definition of heos has several meanings:
Of uncertain affinity; a conjunction, preposition and adverb of
continuance, until (of time and place):-even (until, unto), (as) far
**(as), how long, (un-)til(-l), (hither-, un-, up) to, while(-s).
(Strong’s Greek Concordance)

As you can see - it doesn’t fit exclusively into your narrow parameters.

Sorry - but you lose again . . .
 
mark_a said:
Does the annunciation in Luke not imply Mary as the ark of the new covenant in when compared to 2 Sam?
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If you could post the exact quotes we can check out your idea.

If you can’t, please give me the references and I’ll post them.

Thank you.
 
elvisman said:
Doki** – we already had this exchange a couple of months ago in the other thread about Mary’s virginity.**

Matt. 1:25** proves NOTHING** about virginity because the word “until” doesn’t mean what you want it to mean. It says:
“He had no relations with her until she bore a son, and he named him Jesus.”

Let’s see what the Scriptures say about the use of the word, “until**”:

2 Samuel 6:23** tells us: Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child until** the day of her death.
Are we to assume that Michal had children after** she died*?*

Let’s also examine Acts 2:34-35 (also see Psalm 110:1, Matt 22:44): For David did not go up into heaven, but he himself said: 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool."’
Are we to surmise that Jesus will cease to sit at the right hand of the Father after his enemies are made his footstool? He is ETERNALLY present at his right hand.

The problem here is that the anti-Catholic attempts to apply 21st century English to Hebrew and Greek from a culture thousands of years ago. It simply *doesn’t *work, friend.
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Whew! It is a good thing elvisman you are the one posting this…😃 I have gone through the same routine one to many times in the past…:coolinoff:
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by elvisman
Yup - no matter how many times you refute that stuff, it keeps coming back . . .
Maybe it’s only refuted in the eyes of catholics? Maybe it’s not really refuted at all?
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Dokimas…I am sorry my friend,but I do believe this issue has been long hammered out many centuries ago. After so many centuries of great theologians,scholars,etc for centuries, I think enough has been said or stated to end this on going discussion.

But you are free to believe as you choose and I must respect your beliefs.😃
 
elvisman said:
Wrong again.

The Greek word for "until" used in the Septuagint (2 Sam 6:23) and in Matt. 1:25 is the exact same word, “Heos”. the definition of heos has several meanings:
Of uncertain affinity; a conjunction, preposition and adverb of
continuance, until (of time and place):-even (until, unto), (as) far
***(as), how long, (un-)til(-l), (hither-, un-, up) to, while(-s).
***(Strong’s Greek Concordance)

As you can see - it doesn’t fit exclusively into your narrow parameters.

Sorry - but you lose again . . .
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The Septuagint was not the original.

BTW, you haven’t commented about the idea there are other verses in the NT that back my use of ‘until’. Let me post them for you. I’ll ask some questions that I would like you to answer if you can.

Mt 2:13 Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream, saying, “Arise, take the young Child and His mother, flee to Egypt, and stay there until <2193> I bring you word; for Herod will seek the young Child to destroy Him.”
-did Joseph, Mary and Jesus stay in Egypt after Harod died? Using your use of ‘until’, yes.

Mt 5:26 "Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till <2193> you have paid the last penny.
-after this person pays every penny, with she/he stay in prison after she/he is finished paying? Using your use of ‘until’, yes.

Mt 11:12 "And from the days of John the Baptist until <2193> now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force.
-do you expect the Kingdom of Heaven to always suffer violence? Using your use of ‘until’, yes.

Mt 17:9 Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until <2193> the Son of Man is risen from the dead.”
-did they ever tell the vision to others? Using your use of ‘until’, no.

Mt 23:39 “for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till <2193> you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!’”
-after they say “Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord” will they get to see Jesus ? Using your use of ‘until’, no.

Mt 27:45 Now from the sixth hour until <2193> the ninth hour there was darkness over all the land.
-after the 9th hour, did light show up again in Jerusalem? Using your use of ‘until’, no.

Mr 6:10 Also He said to them, "In whatever place you enter a house, stay there till <2193> you depart from that place.
-after they depart from that place, will they stay at the house they enter? Using your use of ‘until’, yes.

Lu 1:80 So the child grew and became strong in spirit, and was in the deserts till <2193> the day of his manifestation to Israel.
-did John the Baptist stay in the dessert? Using your use of ‘until’, yes.

Lu 12:50 "But I have a baptism to be baptized with, and I am constrained till <2193> it is accomplished!
-Is Jesus still constrained and will He be forever? Using your use of ‘until’, yes.

Joh 2:10 And he said to him, “Every man at the beginning sets out the good wine, and when the guests have well drunk, then the inferior. You have kept the good wine until <2193> now!”
-did he give the people the good wine or not? Using your use of ‘until’, no.

Joh 9:18 But the Jews did not believe concerning him, that he had been blind and received his sight, until <2193> they called the parents of him who had received his sight.
-after the Jews spoke to the parents, did they believe the son was born blind? Using your use of ‘until’, no.

Joh 13:38 Jesus answered him, "Will you lay down your life for My sake? Most assuredly, I say to you, the rooster shall not crow till < 2193> you have denied Me three times.
-after Peter denied Jesus 3 times, did the cock crow? Using your use of ‘until’, no.

Joh 16:24 "Until now <2193> you have asked nothing in My name. Ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be full.
-are the apostles supposed to ask the Father in the Name of Jesus? Using your use of ‘until’, no.

That’s just the Gospels. Shall we look at the rest of the NT?

Context, context, context.
 
Nicea325 said:
Whew! It is a good thing elvisman you are the one posting this…😃 I have gone through the same routine one to many times in the past…:coolinoff:
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Please, Nicea, comment on the verses I just posted for Elvis. I don’t think I’ve ever seen you comment on these.
 
Dokimas said:
Please, Nicea, comment on the verses I just posted for Elvis. I don’t think I’ve ever seen you comment on these.
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Dokimas, not here at least,but at The History Channel. And honestly,I am too tired to move on with this heated debate. I’ll leave the honors for you and elvisman.

Peace brother!
 
Nicea325 said:
Dokimas, not here at least,but at The History Channel. And honestly,I am too tired to move on with this heated debate. I’ll leave the honors for you and elvisman.

Peace brother!
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Not sure what you mean about the History Channel.

God bless you. Blessed to be your brother.
 
Dokimas said:
The Septuagint was not the original.

BTW, you haven’t commented about the idea there are other verses in the NT that back my use of ‘until’. Let me post them for you. I’ll ask some questions that I would like you to answer if you can.

Mt 2:13 Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream, saying, “Arise, take the young Child and His mother, flee to Egypt, and stay there until <2193> I bring you word; for Herod will seek the young Child to destroy Him.”
-did Joseph, Mary and Jesus stay in Egypt after Harod died? Using your use of ‘until’, yes.

Mt 5:26 "Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till <2193> you have paid the last penny.
-after this person pays every penny, with she/he stay in prison after she/he is finished paying? Using your use of ‘until’, yes.

Mt 11:12 "And from the days of John the Baptist until <2193> now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force.
-do you expect the Kingdom of Heaven to always suffer violence? Using your use of ‘until’, yes.

Mt 17:9 Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until <2193> the Son of Man is risen from the dead.”
-did they ever tell the vision to others? Using your use of ‘until’, no.

Mt 23:39 “for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till <2193> you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!’”
-after they say “Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord” will they get to see Jesus ? Using your use of ‘until’, no.

Mt 27:45 Now from the sixth hour until <2193> the ninth hour there was darkness over all the land.
-after the 9th hour, did light show up again in Jerusalem? Using your use of ‘until’, no.

Mr 6:10 Also He said to them, "In whatever place you enter a house, stay there till <2193> you depart from that place.
-after they depart from that place, will they stay at the house they enter? Using your use of ‘until’, yes.

Lu 1:80 So the child grew and became strong in spirit, and was in the deserts till <2193> the day of his manifestation to Israel.
-did John the Baptist stay in the dessert? Using your use of ‘until’, yes.

Lu 12:50 "But I have a baptism to be baptized with, and I am constrained till <2193> it is accomplished!
-Is Jesus still constrained and will He be forever? Using your use of ‘until’, yes.

Joh 2:10 And he said to him, “Every man at the beginning sets out the good wine, and when the guests have well drunk, then the inferior. You have kept the good wine until <2193> now!”
-did he give the people the good wine or not? Using your use of ‘until’, no.

Joh 9:18 But the Jews did not believe concerning him, that he had been blind and received his sight, until <2193> they called the parents of him who had received his sight.
-after the Jews spoke to the parents, did they believe the son was born blind? Using your use of ‘until’, no.

Joh 13:38 Jesus answered him, "Will you lay down your life for My sake? Most assuredly, I say to you, the rooster shall not crow till < 2193> you have denied Me three times.
-after Peter denied Jesus 3 times, did the cock crow? Using your use of ‘until’, no.

Joh 16:24 "Until now <2193> you have asked nothing in My name. Ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be full.
-are the apostles supposed to ask the Father in the Name of Jesus? Using your use of ‘until’, no.

That’s just the Gospels. Shall we look at the rest of the NT?

Context, context, context.
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You could produce 1000 verses with different uses of “until” (heos) and that wouldn’t bolster your position one bit. In fact, it supports MY position that there is more than use for heos.

Your charge that The Septuagint isn’t the original language and therefore renders the Hebrew word for “until” null and void is preposterous.
Besides - Acts 2:34-35 and Matt 22:44 in the NT - again with the usage I employed . . . :rolleyes:

PS - here is one more for you:
Deut. 34:6 tells us that nobody knew the location of Moses’s grave “until this present day”.
Did they know it afterward???
 
elvisman said:
You could produce 1000 verses with different uses of “until” (heos) and that wouldn’t bolster your position one bit. In fact, it supports MY position that there is more than use for heos.

Your charge that The Septuagint isn’t the original language and therefore renders the Hebrew word for “until” null and void is preposterous.
Besides - Acts 2:34-35 and Matt 22:44 in the NT -* again* with the usage *I *employed . . . :rolleyes:

PS - here is one more for you:
Deut. 34:6 tells us that nobody knew the location of Moses’s grave “until this present day”.
Did they know it afterward???
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You showed me verses like 1 Sam where ‘until’ is used to support your position. You expected me to accept your couple of examples. Then you tell me you won’t accept my many verses with examples of context, context context. Makes no sense except that you have a double standard.

I guess that’s the easy way of telling those with oppositional understandings that they lost the ‘argument’.
 
Dokimas said:
You showed me verses like 1 Sam where ‘until’ is used to support your position. You expected me to accept your couple of examples. Then you tell me you won’t accept my many verses with examples of context, context context. Makes no sense except that you have a double standard.

I guess that’s the easy way of telling those with oppositional understandings that they lost the ‘argument’.
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**I fully accept your examples of the use of the word “until”. **It is YOU who refuses to accept the examples I furnished because the proves different use of the word. I never reject the word of God, but you seem to do just that.

Pretty strange for a guy who believes in Sola Scriptura to deny the Scriptures . . .
 
Dokimas said:
You showed me verses like 1 Sam where ‘until’ is used to support your position. You expected me to accept your couple of examples. Then you tell me you won’t accept my many verses with examples of context, context context. Makes no sense except that you have a double standard.

I guess that’s the easy way of telling those with oppositional understandings that they lost the ‘argument’.
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Who gave you or the Reverend the authority to promote as Truth your own interpretation of “until” or “bretheren” relative to the Virgin Mary.
 
wanderingbaptis said:
can someone help me understand this?

i thought Jesus had at least one brother–James, if not more (mentioned somewhere in Matthew in the same sentence as His “sisters”). but i keep seeing on here that Mary was a virgin till the end, so both can’t be true…?

help please!
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(Sorry if I’m repeating someone. Just answering without reading any responses.) Mary was a virgin. In mass last week our priest said that Mary went into Heaven a virgin. In order to have another child besides Christ she couldn’t be a virgin.
However, it is said that St. James the Less and his brother St. Jude Thaddaeus were related to Jesus. This does not necessarily mean that they were brothers. Meaning that they were cousins or uncles or something like that. (Look in Catholicism for Dummies that is where I found out about St. James and St. Jude.)
Once again sorry if someone already said this. :blushing:
 
There’s no where in the Bible atleast where it implicitly states Mother Mary had other children, but in the language of the day, one would know if someone had said "your mother and your mother’s son). Which doesn’t happen anytime when Our Lord’s “brothers” are mentioned.

I believe if one is truly sincere with charity and love in their hearts (not pointing fingers at anyone), will accept Mother Mary had only one child.

God bless.

MJ
 
Nicea325 said:
Whew! It is a good thing elvisman you are the one posting this…😃 I have gone through the same routine one to many times in the past…:coolinoff:
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You know, Dokimas stands in the tradition of Helvidius. Maybe it is grounds for a new ecclesial community! [SIGN]The First Church of Helvidians! [/SIGN] I am sure I just read where Doki and his beloved are looking for a community. Perhaps if they can find a building, we can take up a collection and have a sign commissioned!
 
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