mary, the eternal virgin?

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If they are the brothers of Jesus, which is a pretty decent bet, that doesn’t prove they were Mary’s children.
Among the Orthodox the common belief is that they are children of Joseph by his earlier marriage. This is not a threatening notion, it is perfectly understandable and has always seemed to be the theory.

The idea that they might be cousins is a completely western idea (probably later in development), it happens to be less believable and supportable and seems therefore to inspire scepticism and attacks from non-believers.

In the big scheme of things it is not that important, but tradition holds that Saint Mary was a virgin before during and after the birth of Jesus. Orthodox really believe this. Iconographically, she is normally depicted with three stars representing this virtue (one on each shoulder and one above her eyes).

http://www2.cytanet.com.cy/gogreek/theotokos_gr.gif

The ‘overpowering’ of the Holy Spirit (a strong argument for the Holy Spirit ‘Begetting’ Jesus BTW) was not sexual or connubial in nature and this makes the ‘Spouse of the Holy Spirit’ concept rather unnecessary and even theologically unwise.
 
For as smart as you think you are you’ve missed me saying that Mary having children is not my issue. I agree with the verses brought forth by others that Jesus had sibblings. I think it’s logical that Mary had other children. However, I don’t think there’s proof one way or the other. Matthew 1:24,25 does suggest Joseph and Mary had ‘relations’. If the did, it is logical to assume that they had children. But, that’s NOT my issue.
This post is VERY close to being able to see the opposite point of view. Good job Doki!

I agree with you that there is no “proof” one way or the other. The Holy Scriptures were not intended to be used as “proof texts” but to confirm the faith that was handed on to the Church and preserved infallibly by the HS. Although it does not lend itself to scientific confirmation, we do have God’s revelation which is 100% reliable. 👍

It is not logical to make assumptions about the Apostolic faith Doki. What is logical is to trust that God is able to keep His promises,a nd that we receive His revelation of Himself that is kept in the Church.
 
No room for discussion, I see.
Yes, there is room for discussion. The Catholic part of the discussion is to transmit the Apostolic Deposit of Faith that has been infallibly preserved in the Church by the HS. It is through this Sacred Tradition that produced the NT that we are able to understand the meanings of what is written. There is no conflict between the Sacred Scripture, and the Sacred Tradition because they both come from the same Source.

Sacred Tradition is the Word of God alive and well in the Church:

1Thes.2
[13] And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers.

God is able, and has kept His promise to maintain this Word intact.

John.17
[17] Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth.

Isa.55

[11] so shall my word be that goes forth from my mouth;
it shall not return to me empty,
but it shall accomplish that which I purpose,
and prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

The purpose of Jesus’ teaching is to bring us to eternal life with Him This will not happen if His Church falls into error.
 
Why did she have to be celibate? Would it have made her an the less the wonderful mother of Jesus? No.
This is hard for people to understand who don’t believe in the gift of celibacy,. and think that people will die if they don’t get sex. Mary chose to devote her whole life to her Divine Son.
 
I don’t think that this claim can be substantiated.

It is modern Latin Catholics who tend to consider her the spouse of the Holy Spirit, but there is nothing in Tradition to show the early church ever considered that. It is more of a ‘reading back’ of modern ideas (with big implications) into history.
I understand what you are saying, but the language of the NT indicates ancient Hebraic references to what happened. When a man “overshadowed” a woman and she became pregnant, they had engaged in the marital act. It is an ancient idea, not a modern one!
 
Main Entry: 1un·til
Pronunciation: \ən-ˈtil, -ˈtel; ˈən-ˌ, -təl
Function: preposition
Etymology: Middle English, from un- (probably from Old Norse *und up to; akin to Old Norse unz up to, until, Old High German unt, Old English ende end) + til, till till
Date: 13th century
1 chiefly Scottish : to
2 —used as a function word to indicate continuance (as of an action or condition) to a specified time
3 : before 2 <we don’t open until ten>

I think this definition helps my understanding. Notice #2. Implies there could be a change after said time.

Notice #3. “we don’t open until ten” implies opening after ten. Joseph did not know Mary until Jesus was born.
definition two does not implie a change. It says that it refers to a specified time not a change.
We don’t open until ten. Up to the time of ten we are closed. Up to the time that Jesus was born Joesph did not know Mary. It does not say anything about after. Matthew was not trying to say anything about after. The definition of until does not support your meaning. You are misusing the word. Matthew was saying she was a virgin despite the fact that she was married.

What man would dare to touch the vessel that God was in?

Why would younger brothers dare talk to their older brother like it describes in the Gospel? Why was there a need to provide for Mary? Why would Mary ask such a strange question of the Angel?
Why can’t you provide a scripture that says Mary was the mother of any other child?
 
The ‘overpowering’ of the Holy Spirit (a strong argument for the Holy Spirit ‘Begetting’ Jesus BTW) was not sexual or connubial in nature and this makes the ‘Spouse of the Holy Spirit’ concept rather unnecessary and even theologically unwise.
Agreed. She was the spouse of Joseph. She could only have one husband.
 
This is hard for people to understand who don’t believe in the gift of celibacy,. and think that people will die if they don’t get sex. Mary chose to devote her whole life to her Divine Son.
As I’ve said over and over again, I believe Jesus and Paul which speak of a gift of celibacy. This means I believe there is a gift.

As I’ve said, I don’t think ‘not having sex’ will directly kill someone. There are sex driven men that kill for sex or after sex. There may be ailments caused by not having sex, according to many experts.

So, why are you directing this to me? I don’t fit you description of who has a tough time understanding.

Having sex with Joseph does not take away from giving her life for her Son. I wouldn’t make her a sinner or a lesser of a vessel fit for the Master’s use.
 
For example, scripture says Michal (David’s wife) had no children ‘until the day she died’. The change wasn’t that she then went to have children post mortem, the change was that she died. The childlessness described in the passage remained a permanent state of affairs that her death didn’t alter.
Kinda hard to have a baby after one is dead. Mary was not dead after she gave birth to Jesus. You aren’t comparing similar things.
Or the passage ‘sit at my right hand until I put your enemies at your feet’. The change isn’t that Jesus will suddenly leave the Father’s right hand, He’s there for good. The change is simply that the Father will, at some point, put all Jesus’ enemies beneath His feet.
Maybe Jesus will stand up after all enemies are at His feet?
Well, you ARE presuming to tell US how you think the HS would have written if our beliefs are correct.
I’m offering an opinion; nothing more, nothing less. It could be incorrect; it could be correct.
Not to mention that it would be equally easy, if Mary and Joseph DID go on to consummate their relationship and have children, to mention the fact, as it mentions the facts of Adam and Eve consummating their relationship and the children they bore, and the same with Abraham, Issac, Jacob and so on.
The Gospels are about Jesus and why He came to earth. BTW, maybe those called His brothers are an answer to your thought?
No, but then the store wouldn’t be misusing it either if it wasn’t in fact open at 10.10 and you tried to sue them for the inconvenience or something. Just like if they said ‘we’re open next Sunday’ (meaning in two days’ time) and you thought they meant ‘next Sunday’ as in nine days’ time. Both meanings of ‘next Sunday’ are equally valid, but not everyone will understand the term in the same way.
I guess you’ll never shop at that store because how will you trust it will ever open? Please, let’s not be silly trying to verify an understanding.
God presumably left Bethel after Jacob’s dream was finished, too - didn’t stop IT from being considered a holy place even afterwards.
Anything God touches becomes holy. Sex doesn’t make her unholy.
It’s not a matter of merely choosing. It’s a matter of disobeying the command to honour one’s mother - if indeed He meant at any point to imply that she was no more important to Him than any other woman. And if she was important to Him then she was surpassingly important indeed.
As His mother, she was important, but… What did He say when He was told that she and His brothers were to see Him? He said that His mother and brothers were those that did His will (I think that’s how it ended).
Well, it’s not one that Sarah asked, or Samuel’s mother, or Samson’s mother, or Zechariah or Elizabeth. Mary KNEW how babies come about every bit as well as these others - even (until then) babies pre-announced by angels. And that was in everyone’s case but Mary’s natural intercourse between husband and wife.
They were fully married and having sex. Mary had NOT had sex yet. Thus, a logical question.
She was soon to be a wife and (assuming no vows of celibacy) intending to conceive children naturally as all these others did. It was indeed a strange and illogical question - IF she was intending to consummate the marriage.
She was young. An angel appears. She very startled. The message from God is delivered. It is highly unlikely she would have time or presence to think it out that way. It is more likely she realized the angel meant right away and she would not be fully married for months. Thus the question is logical from many directions.
 
This thread reminds me of another Perpetual virginity thread.

In it, a Protestant poster here pointed out an understanding of “betrothed” that I had not seen before. The explanation was that “betrothed” would have normally meant “consumated” even though a wedding ritual had not yet taken place or was never intended.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5623091&postcount=66

Perhaps unintentionally, the scenario he presents makes an even stronger case for the perpetual virginity of Mary.
 
Kinda hard to have a baby after one is dead. Mary was not dead after she gave birth to Jesus.

…snip…

You aren’t comparing similar things.
I think it might be helpfull to understand how the Greek “Aorist tense” impacts the meaning of scripture. In the event that you’ve not read much about it, there are several articles here at CAF. Should you be interested, here’s a good one to start with.

catholic.com/thisrock/1995/9509fea2.asp

Understanding this one language construct changed the way I came at scripture.

Peace!
 
For as smart as you think you are you’ve missed me saying that Mary having children is not my issue. I agree with the verses brought forth by others that Jesus had sibblings. I think it’s logical that Mary had other children. However, I don’t think there’s proof one way or the other. Matthew 1:24,25 does suggest Joseph and Mary had ‘relations’. If the did, it is logical to assume that they had children. But, that’s NOT my issue.
If the idea of Mary having other children or not having other children is NOT your issue - why are you on this thread?
What IS your issue?
 
I think it might be helpfull to understand how the Greek “Aorist tense” impacts the meaning of scripture. In the event that you’ve not read much about it, there are several articles here at CAF. Should you be interested, here’s a good one to start with.

catholic.com/thisrock/1995/9509fea2.asp

Understanding this one language construct changed the way I came at scripture.

Peace!
Matthew 1:25

25 and did not know (5707) her till she had brought forth (5627) her firstborn Son. And he called His name JESUS

5707 Tense-Imperfect See 5775
Voice-Active See 5784
Mood - Indicative See 5791
Count-857

5775 Tense-Imperfect

The imperfect tense generally represents continual or repeated action in the past. Where the present tense might indicate “they are asking,” the imperfect would indicate “they kept on asking.”

In the case of the verb “to be,” however, the imperfect tense is used as a general past tense and does not carry the connotation of continual or repeated action.

5784 Voice-Active

The active voice represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action. e.g., in the sentence, “The boy hitthe ball,” the boy performs the action.

5791 Mood-Indicative

The indicative mood is a simple statement of fact. If an action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be rendered in the indicative mood.

5627 Tense-Second Aorist See 5780
Voice-Active See 5784
Mood - Indicative See 5791

5780 Tense-Second Aorist

The “second aorist” tense is identical in meaning and translation to the normal or “first” aorist tense. The only difference is in the form of spelling the words in Greek, andthere is no effect upon English translation.

See “Aorist” 5777

5777 Tense-Aorist

The aorist tense is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered without regard for past, present, or future time. There is no direct or clear English equivalent for this tense, though it is generally rendered as a simple past tense in most translations.

The events described by the aorist tense are classified into a number of categories by grammarians. **The most common of these include a view of the action as having begun from a certain point (“inceptive aorist”), or having ended at a certain point (“cumulative aorist”), or merely existing at a certain point (“punctiliar aorist”). **The categorization of other cases can be found in Greek reference grammars.

The English reader need not concern himself with most of these finer points concerning the aorist tense, since in most cases they cannot be rendered accurately in English translation, being fine points of Greek exegesis only. The common practice of rendering an aorist by a simple English past tense should suffice in most cases.

I’m not sure this helps your understanding and may very well lean towards my understanding.
 
If the idea of Mary having other children or not having other children is NOT your issue - why are you on this thread?
What IS your issue?
The thread is about Mary being an eternal virgin NOT about whether or not she had children. The only way interjecting children into this thread is if she had children. Then she would MOST definately not a perpetual virgin. If she did not have children, it doesn’t help on this thread.

Therefore, as I’ve said and you’ve missed, my issue is whether or not Mary was a perpetual virgin. I say no and I believe Matthew 1:24,25 say no too.

Do you understand yet, Elvis?
 
Matthew 1:25

25 and did not know (5707) **her till she had brought forth **(5627) her firstborn Son. And he called His name JESUS

snip…

The English reader need not concern himself with most of these finer points concerning the aorist tense, **since in most cases they cannot be rendered accurately in English **translation, being fine points of Greek exegesis only. The common practice of rendering an aorist by a simple English past tense should suffice in most cases.

I’m not sure this helps your understanding and may very well lean towards my understanding.
Even if that English reader is led to an incorrect understanding of the passage? The English reader should most definitely be concerned, as the word “untill” or [till] in the English language infers that something happened after that point, when in fact the aorist tense in the Greek does not infer anything chronologically. The whole jist of Matthew 1:25 is to atest to the virgin birth - NOT to indicate that Mary had sexual relations with Jospeh after Jesus’ birth.

Peace!
 
Even if that English reader is led to an incorrect understanding of the passage? The English reader should most definitely be concerned, as the word “untill” or [till] in the English language infers that something happened after that point, when in fact the aorist tense in the Greek does not infer anything chronologically. The whole jist of Matthew 1:25 is to atest to the virgin birth - NOT to indicate that Mary had sexual relations with Jospeh after Jesus’ birth.

Peace!
Did you miss the rest of my post and the highlighted parts?

The events described by the aorist tense are classified into a number of categories by grammarians. The most common of these include a view of the action as having begun from a certain point (“inceptive aorist”), or **having ended at a certain point **(“cumulative aorist”), or **merely existing at a certain point **(“punctiliar aorist”). The categorization of other cases can be found in Greek reference grammars.

I’m sure you correct that one major reason for Matthew 1:25 is to establish the virgin birth of Jesus. Although, I’m sure a foolish person could argue that Mary could have gotten pregnant by another man.

Notice that one rendering of the aorist is 'having ended at a certain point, in Mary’s case, her virginity after a time.
 
.
That is a weak answer. If Mary had other children, Jesus would not have to see to her care.

By what logic is that? A married woman ask how can that be because I know not man is logical?

That reason is why?
A weak answer, maybe. However, Jesus, being the eldest, would take responsibility for His mother. He chose John.

As for the logic of ‘the question’ and married people… Maybe you don’t understand ‘marriage’ in the Jewish tradition. A couple’s ‘marriage’ takes up to a year to consumate. If the angel said she would have a Baby and Mary understood him to be implying very soon, she knew she had not had relations nor was she going to have relations any time real soon, thus ‘the question’.

The reason why? It has nothing to do with the Gospel. It’s info that the Holy Spirit chose not to give as it would be assumed correctly by all close to Jesus. Especially in light of the fact Mary (His mother) and His brothers came to see Him, as it was recorded. If they were His brothers, there would be no need to say any more.
 
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