mary, the eternal virgin?

[Dokimas]

That pertains to a deliberate attempt to deceive someone, or misrepresent. In this case, I am giving my testimony of how I understand your posts. While it may not be accurate, that is the way it seems to me, and it is my accurate perception.

Not at all! One need only start from your assumptions, and follow them forward to their logical conclusion. I certainly may have made an error in logic, about which I am pleased to be corrected.

Yes. This is why there were no more Apostles after the death of those who were with Him from the beginning, and witnessed the resurrection. This is also the reason we reject all self styled modern “apostles”, who cannot meet these criteria.

You still have not explained how it was that the HS ignored the prayer of the Apostles. If He did not show them which one God had chosen, why did He not?

Why do you think it’s your business to interpret my posts? It makes NO sense on many levels, especially in light that I correct you over and over and over again. It does appear deliberate.

I’m confused. I thought you believed the pope is an apostle.

As for the Holy Spirit ignoring the prayer of the disciples… How would you suggest He tell them NO? No is an answer to prayers. Would God say no to the disciples?

I guess we’ll let the observers figure for themselves if you ‘extrapolating’ my understanding go in the correct direction. My vote in ‘no’ and your’s is ‘yes’. But it’s only God’s understanding that counts.

 

[Dokimas]

Because prophecy dictates that He be born of a virgin. not everyone is satisfied with being told she was a virgin , just as thomas was not satisfied being told He lived. Jesus allowed Thomas to touch the physical proof that His Body was real. Mary being intact is the physical proof of her virginity forever. Yet, she bore that baby.

Yes and double yes!!! Prophecy does dictate as you say. It does not dictate Mary remain a virgin. A skeptic could say, “Even if she was celibate after the birth of Jesus, that doesn’t mean she didn’t have sex before Jesus was formed in her womb.”

To anyone who believes Bible prophecy, to believe she was a virgin until the birth of Jesus has NOTHING to do with whether or not she remained celibate. I believe in the virgin birth of Jesus, yet do not believe Mary remained a virgin.

You say not everyone is satified being told she was a virgin. How did she prove it? A skeptic doesn’t believe Jesus was born to a virgin. You point doesn’t seem to hold up.

 

[Dokimas]

**Denial of a revealed truth - especially **about God.
You have implied that he does not have the power to make decisions - that’s heresy.

I’ve implied NO such thing. This quote, then, bears false witness.

 

[LilyM]

Why do you think it’s your business to interpret my posts? It makes NO sense on many levels, especially in light that I correct you over and over and over again. It does appear deliberate.

He’s not interpreting your posts. He’s telling you how your writings appear to him, and of course to others of the rest of us who are reading.

If you intend your posts to communicate anything at all to us then it is CRITICAL for you to take on board the impression you are making on others, and what they are actually coming away from your posts thinking.

And if their impression doesn’t tally with what you intend to say or think you are saying, then you need to tailor the way you communicate accordingly until people take away the meaning you want to convey to them. It doesn’t help either you or us one bit for you to simply stamp your feet and say ‘you aren’t reading my posts correctly’. Tell us what you really mean and then take note not to confuse us in the same way in future.

I’m confused. I thought you believed the pope is an apostle.

The Pope is a successor to the office of the Apostles. So are all our bishops and priests, to a lesser extent.

He referred to SELF-STYLED Apostles.

Benedict didn’t take it upon himself to set himself up as Bishop or Pope and so claim the special authority resulting. Neither have any of his predecessors. Others chose him and them for these roles. So he is (and they were) the complete opposite of self-styled. The complete opposite of the type of people who are being condemned, in fact.

As for the Holy Spirit ignoring the prayer of the disciples… How would you suggest He tell them NO? No is an answer to prayers. Would God say no to the disciples?

No is an answer, but there is no indication whatsoever that God told anyone ‘no’ in this instance. When God says ‘no’ it does become apparent to anyone who is genuinely praying for His will to be revealed as the Apostles were in the case of Matthias.

There’s no hint along the lines of ‘Matthias was enrolled as one of the 12 … until Paul came along, then the Holy Spirit told the Apostles that they’d made a booboo. Then they gave Matthias a golden handshake and sent him on his merry way.’

So there can be no doubt that Matthias is legitimately a successor to Judas’ office. Paul is too, no doubt - there’s no stipulation that the number of Apostles had to remain at 12, obviously - such would be impractical as the Church grew. So why can’t you accept the situation for what it so oabiously is, a case of both Matthias and Paul, rather than insisting on Matthias not being an Apostle?

 

[swariffin]

can someone help me understand this?

i thought Jesus had at least one brother–James, if not more (mentioned somewhere in Matthew in the same sentence as His “sisters”). but i keep seeing on here that Mary was a virgin till the end, so both can’t be true…?

help please!

My dear brother, I have not read the entire thread. Someone may have said the same thing. First, do you know that Mary’s womb is indeed the Tabernacle? Inside the Tabernacle there was the bread from heaven, the stick of Aaron (a symbol of Priesthood) and the two pieces of stone which bear the word of God. Inside Mary’s womb there is also the bread from heaven, the priest, and the word of God (which all mean Jesus). So, if Mary’s womb is the Tabernacle, and if the Tabernacle is placed inside the Temple of God, then Mary is the Temple of God.

Now, let us read Ezekiel 44:1-3. If Jesus is the “Prince” of God, then the gate where Jesus pass from the “Temple of God (which is Mary)” is solely for Him. That means that no other person nor a thing would pass through.

 

[guanophore]

Why do you think it’s your business to interpret my posts? It makes NO sense on many levels, especially in light that I correct you over and over and over again. It does appear deliberate.

I can certainly attest that I interpret everything I read. So does everyone who reads. Some people are just not honest about the fact that they interpret when they read. It is part of the human construction to interpret all that comes into the senses.

It is one of the reasons that there are as many understandings of Scripture as there are belly buttons! I also confess, though that sometimes I do not deliberate as much as I should when interpreting. I your case, I made an effort to take your statements to their logical conclusion.

I’m confused. I thought you believed the pope is an apostle.

No. No one after the death of the last apostle was able to meet the criteria to be an Apostle.

As for the Holy Spirit ignoring the prayer of the disciples… How would you suggest He tell them NO? No is an answer to prayers. Would God say no to the disciples?

Sure! He could have snatched the lots out of the air, caused a dust devil, spoken from heaven to say “y’all are makin’ a mistake here!”. He prevented Paul from going to Macedonia, didn’t He? I am sure it is up to him how he prevents the Apostles from making mistakes in the governance of the Church. May point is that He promised He would do this, then, according to your theory, left them orphaned, and failed to lead them into all Truth. According to your theory, He allowed them to start making mistakes right off the bat!

If that is the case, then how can you trust the canon, since it was created by a group that makes these kinds of mistakes?

I guess we’ll let the observers figure for themselves if you ‘extrapolating’ my understanding go in the correct direction. My vote in ‘no’ and your’s is ‘yes’. But it’s only God’s understanding that counts.

That is just it, Doki. We are both “Interpreting” God’s understanding. Catholics believe He kept the promises He made to the Church. You believe He did not. Which one of us understands God?

 

[guanophore]

I’ve implied NO such thing. This quote, then, bears false witness.

I rarely disagree with elvisman, but in this case, I must. You have gone quite beyond implication, and have clearly stated that the CC has not the authority to make such decisions. On another thread, you made it clear that the US Naval Academy has more authority than the CC.

 

[elvisman]

I’ve implied NO such thing. This quote, then, bears false witness.

No - it only proves that you speak heresy.
Here is your quote:
"That was Peter’s prayer. The disciples chose two people. They cast lots. What was God to do? Suspend the lots in the air?"

You say that it was PETER’S prayer. The text disagrees with you:
**Then they prayed, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen to take the place in this apostolic ministry from which Judas turned away to go to his own place.” **

---

The text says CLEARLY that this decision was made by GOD.
God was in FULL charge of this decision. Not onl;y have you spoken heresy - but lies as well.

 

[guanophore]

No - it only proves that you speak heresy.
Here is your quote:
"That was Peter’s prayer. The disciples chose two people. They cast lots. What was God to do? Suspend the lots in the air?"

It is kinda silly, given that God is on record stopping the sun from moving, and many other things that He could not have done something .

It seems to me, in the Dokimas theology, that the failings of man are often stronger than God.

You say that it was PETER’S prayer. The text disagrees with you:
Then they prayed, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen to take the place in this apostolic ministry from which Judas turned away to go to his own place.”

---

The text says CLEARLY that this decision was made by GOD.
God was in FULL charge of this decision. Not onl;y have you spoken heresy - but lies as well.

Dokimas cannot be accused of heresy, because it requires that a person first have embraced the Truth. He has clearly never accepted that God gave the Apostles the authority to do things like this, or that God worked through them to accomplish His will by that authority.

A lie is a deliberate attempt to deceive. I don’t think Dokimas really wants deliberately mislead anyone. He is just repeating lies that have been given to him.

 

[elvisman]

It is kinda silly, given that God is on record stopping the sun from moving, and many other things that He could not have done something .

It seems to me, in the Dokimas theology, that the failings of man are often stronger than God.

Dokimas cannot be accused of heresy, because it requires that a person first have embraced the Truth. He has clearly never accepted that God gave the Apostles the authority to do things like this, or that God worked through them to accomplish His will by that authority.

A lie is a deliberate attempt to deceive. I don’t think Dokimas really wants deliberately mislead anyone. He is just repeating lies that have been given to him.

**I wasn’t accusing him of being a heretic - but of speaking heresy. For example - if he espoused the belief that Jesus was not God but merely a Temple of God, I would have accused him of speaking in favor of the Nestorian Heresy.

Dokimas limits the power of God and IS therefore speaking heresy because ALL Christians must believe in God’s omnipotence.

As for whether or not he* lied*, the argument is strong against him because I gave hime the text Iwhich is undeniable) no less that 3 times and he STILL denies the truth.**

 

[Rightlydivide]

That was Peter’s prayer. The disciples chose two people. They cast lots. What was God to do? Suspend the lots in the air?

BTW, Peter was known for his acting too quickly. Also, this happened before the Holy Spirit was given in Acts 2.

You are just wrong. The Bible is very clear. God choose him.

Act 1:24 And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen Act 1:25 to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.”

Act 1:26 And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

I do not care what the label under the name says. This is as literal and clear as possible.

 

[mark_a]

I think it was Guanophore, maybe not, but someone said we don’t establish truth by vote. The Holy Spirit tells us what’s true and not. It’s up to us to listen and obey.

That works for me. But how could the Holy Spirit inspire one truth in the apostolic Churches and the opposite truth in your Church?

 

[Dokimas]

I can certainly attest that I interpret everything I read. So does everyone who reads. Some people are just not honest about the fact that they interpret when they read. It is part of the human construction to interpret all that comes into the senses.

Lil, please take note: Guan was interpreting me.

Guan, you do a very poor job of it so you should stop. Why not just ask me questions so I can clear up for you your misunderstandings. What you do, telling us what I’ve meant, often boarders on false witnessing.

It is one of the reasons that there are as many understandings of Scripture as there are belly buttons! I also confess, though that sometimes I do not deliberate as much as I should when interpreting. I your case, I made an effort to take your statements to their logical conclusion.

I wasn’t speaking about interpreting Scripture but my post.

BTW, if there’s as many interpretations as belly-buttons, are you saying you interpret the Bible for yourself?

No. No one after the death of the last apostle was able to meet the criteria to be an Apostle.

Lil, I guess I was correct about what Guan was saying.

Sure! He could have snatched the lots out of the air, caused a dust devil, spoken from heaven to say “y’all are makin’ a mistake here!”. He prevented Paul from going to Macedonia, didn’t He? I am sure it is up to him how he prevents the Apostles from making mistakes in the governance of the Church. May point is that He promised He would do this, then, according to your theory, left them orphaned, and failed to lead them into all Truth. According to your theory, He allowed them to start making mistakes right off the bat!

Wrong interpretation again. God didn’t fail. We fail at times. He does allow us to fail. Where sin abounds, grace does much more abound.

Romans 5:20 “Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more.”

If that is the case, then how can you trust the canon, since it was created by a group that makes these kinds of mistakes?

Isn’t it a miracle how God can use people and they get things correct? Wasn’t there MUCH deliberation before the final decision was made as to what letters would be cannonized?

That is just it, Doki. We are both “Interpreting” God’s understanding. Catholics believe He kept the promises He made to the Church. You believe He did not. Which one of us understands God?

Are you purposely misleading readers as to what I have said on this issue many times on CAF? God keeps ALL His promises, even the ones that tell us that when we stray, He will discipline. The problem IS NOT with God, but with you, the CC, every church and most of all, ME.

 

[Dokimas]

I rarely disagree with elvisman, but in this case, I must. You have gone quite beyond implication, and have clearly stated that the CC has not the authority to make such decisions. On another thread, you made it clear that the US Naval Academy has more authority than the CC.

This is what Elvis said to which I made my comment your commenting on:

[SIGN]Denial of a revealed truth - especially about God.
You have implied that he does not have the power to make decisions - that’s heresy.[/SIGN]

His post had NOTHING to do with the CC but with God. He beared false witness that I implied God does not have the power to make decisions.

You continue to struggle getting what we say correct.

It’s quite unfair of you to interject the CC and the US Naval Academy discussion here because you have not posted all my comments so the readers will understand for themselves the points made. Bad form on your part.

 

[Dokimas]

No - it only proves that you speak heresy.
Here is your quote:
"That was Peter’s prayer. The disciples chose two people. They cast lots. What was God to do? Suspend the lots in the air?"

Then they prayed, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen to take the place in this apostolic ministry from which Judas turned away to go to his own place.”

---

The text says CLEARLY that this decision was made by GOD.
God was in FULL charge of this decision. Not onl;y have you spoken heresy - but lies as well.

It is you who, through using nice color, have changed the meaning of the prayer. They chose two men and expected God to chose one of them by casting lots.

You say that it was PETER’S prayer. The text disagrees with you:

Peter wasn’t one of those praying? If he was, did he disagree with the prayer? It was his prayer as well as all of them.

 

[Dokimas]

It is kinda silly, given that God is on record stopping the sun from moving, and many other things that He could not have done something .

It seems to me, in the Dokimas theology, that the failings of man are often stronger than God.

 

[Dokimas]

That works for me. But how could the Holy Spirit inspire one truth in the apostolic Churches and the opposite truth in your Church?

He didn’t. One or both are incorrect. I suspect we are speaking of the perpetual virginity of Mary as that’s the subject of this thread.

 

[mark_a]

I suspect we are speaking of the perpetual virginity of Mary as that’s the subject of this thread.

Yes. Sorry for not being clear.

He didn’t. One or both are incorrect.

I don’t follow.

 

[elvisman]

It is you who, through using nice color, have changed the meaning of the prayer. They chose two men and expected God to chose one of them by casting lots.

Again with the colors? The last refuge of the TRULY desperate.
Now you’re saying that God DID chose Matthias?? Earlier, in Post #276, you said God DIDN’T choose him.

You change your position more often that most people change their clothes . . .

Peter wasn’t one of those praying? If he was, did he disagree with the prayer? It was his prayer as well as all of them.

**You can play semantic games all you want. The fact is - you said it was Peter’s prayer, implying it wasn’t the concensus of the Apostles. **
You’re wrong yet again . . .

 

[Dokimas]

Yes. Sorry for not being clear.

You did nothing wrong.

I needed to clarify, not for your sake, but because some here like to misstate, misuse, etc what I say so I thought I should make it clear that we weren’t speaking generally.

I don’t follow.