mary, the eternal virgin?

[Doxiemom]

Jesus is the Bridegroom and we are the Bride

And God’s wife will be the people Israel. Yes, that is in the bible.

Even the use of the term “Woman” as Jesus always calls Mary publically (that is Written) shows just how very important she was in prophecy. She was the Woman whose seed would crush the head of the serpent. The apostles, and other Jews knew who the “woman” would be from the torah.

Well done, faithful servent Mary.

I cannot accept the other “roles” given to her because it is based on tradtion, (sadly) wishful thinking , and a veneration that crossed over into worship.

What she is according to Scripture needs no further embellishment, however good the intent.

 

[elvisman]

Jesus is the Bridegroom and we are the Bride

And God’s wife will be the people Israel. Yes, that is in the bible.

Even the use of the term “Woman” as Jesus always calls Mary publically (that is Written) shows just how very important she was in prophecy. She was the Woman whose seed would crush the head of the serpent. The apostles, and other Jews knew who the “woman” would be from the torah.

Well done, faithful servent Mary.

I cannot accept the other “roles” given to her because it is based on tradtion, (sadly) wishful thinking , and a veneration that crossed over into worship.

What she is according to Scripture needs no further embellishment, however good the intent.

If you honestly believe that the Church teaches or condones “Mary-worship” - you are ignorant.

**Latria is paid to God alone. Dulia is the reverance we give to the saints in heaven. We give Mary Hyper-dulia - the highest reverence reserved for saints in heaven.

Last time I checked - neither you nor ANYbody else is the Mother of God, which deserves the highest reverence paid to a created being. Jesus chose HER - not you or any other created being to be his mother from ALL of the women in history. He honored her much more than I ever can.

Revelation 12:1
A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.

 

[Rumpelstiltskin]

terms of familial relationships were possibly different back in Jesus’ day. a close cousin was probably a “brother” or “sister.” you know that now a days a person you are not related to by blood but that are really good and close personal friends may be an “uncle” or “aunt” and their sons and daughters may be your “cousins.” and also people say stuff like “jimmy and johnny are such good friends are like brothers” so why couldn’t it have been similar to that in Jesus’ day. also you may want to think about the possibility that maybe through some happenstance Joseph and Mary may have adopted another son or daughter.

when Jesus said to the apostle whom he loved “behold your mother” that did not literally mean that they were blood related, in Jesus’ day a woman was not allowed to live alone and since Joseph by that time was dead, Jesus had no brother, and Mary’s own father was dead Mary had to live with someone, and what better symbolism than to take His mother and make her the mother of another person, there by establishing the idea that Mary is the “new Eve” (and of course we are all descendants of the original Eve so now we are decendants of the new Eve, Mary)

Also have you ever called someone your “brother” or “sister” in Christ, it might have been the same principal instead of “Christ” it would just be “God”

Okay…

The Bible called them Jesus’ brothers, but you say those are not ‘real’ brothers.
The Bible had Mary calling herself the servant of God, but you say she’s the mother of God.
The Bible never says Mary was the new Eve, and you came up with the new Eve concept.

I ask myself whether I should trust what you say or what the Bible says.

 

[guanophore]

Jesus is the Bridegroom and we are the Bride

And God’s wife will be the people Israel. Yes, that is in the bible.

Even the use of the term “Woman” as Jesus always calls Mary publically (that is Written) shows just how very important she was in prophecy. She was the Woman whose seed would crush the head of the serpent. The apostles, and other Jews knew who the “woman” would be from the torah.

Well done, faithful servent Mary.

I cannot accept the other “roles” given to her because it is based on tradtion, (sadly) wishful thinking , and a veneration that crossed over into worship.

No, Doxie. None of the roles of mary are “based” on tradition. They are all based on what God decided to do in her life. Just like all of humanity, everything and anything we are is based upon His grace and His plan.

Sacred Tradition preserves what God has revealed to us.

It is true that for some, veneration has crossed over into worship. Those persons have fallen into idolatry. However, we must not let our acceptance of God’s gifts be hindered by those who have fallen from the faith.

What she is according to Scripture needs no further embellishment, however good the intent.

Scripture was never intended to contain the whole revelation of God.

As a matter of fact, I have been looking for some mp3’s of Paul’s lectures over the course of 2 years in the Temple of Tyrannus. If you see them could you let me know?

 

[nominal_effect]

Sister in Christ, actually, but thank you both for your help with the topic.
I’m not very well versed in scripture (no pun intended), but I’m doing my best to remedy the situation by reading every day and studying as I go.

I love your honesty with this statement. In fact, most Christians aren’t well versed in scripture.

 

[Rumpelstiltskin]

I love your honesty with this statement. In fact, most Christians aren’t well versed in scripture.

That explains why many so-called christians don’t know how to follow Christ.

“Here, I am your follower!..and then when you go, I totally lose sight of you”…- So much for a follower.

The bible says he who listens and obey is a follower. Unfortunately, many think the Bible is not even sufficient…let alone listen to it.

 

[guanophore]

The bible says he who listens and obey is a follower. Unfortunately, many think the Bible is not even sufficient…let alone listen to it.

Do you understand what the Catholic Church teaches about the sufficiency of Scripture?

 

[guanophore]

The Bible called them Jesus’ brothers, but you say those are not ‘real’ brothers.

Of course they are “real brothers”! It is just that the Hebrews used the term "brothers’ differently than we.

The Bible had Mary calling herself the servant of God, but you say she’s the mother of God.

Is there some reason both cannot be true?

The Bible never says Mary was the new Eve, and you came up with the new Eve concept.

Well, we read it differently, don’t we? When Jesus refers to Mary as “Woman”, this is the title that was given to the first "Woman " (Eve - the mother of all living). In Rev. the woman clothed with the sun who gives birth to the redeemer of the world is the mother of all who follow her Son. She is the mother of all the living in the New Covenant.

I ask myself whether I should trust what you say or what the Bible says.

Rumple, the NT was written by, for, and about Catholics. There is nothing in it that is not Catholic. Because it is a catholic book, there is no contradiction between it and the Catholic Sacred Tradition that produced it.

I find it very confusing why we need to go through so many people when Jesus Himself already told us to go straight to Him when He said “No man goes to the Father except through Me”.

These are apples and oranges Rumple. Jesus mediated our eternal salvation. No other could do that. When we intercede for one another, we are standing in the gap an spiriitually supporting one another. Has no one ever asked you to pray for them?

I mean here you have a person who volunteered Himself as a mediator between you and God and tells you to go to Him. Then you go around the entire town to search for people dead or alive to speak to Him on your behalf???

No one is asking for the mediation of our eternal salvation through anyone but Christ.

We also never ask the dead to do anything.

Can you remember how Samuel scolded Saul through the medium? Go read. With the exception of Elijah or Moses (who appeared at the transfiguration), the majority of the dead are asleep. The Bible is very clear on this.

Actually, Samuel was not asleep. He scolded Paul for disturbing his “rest”. The saints who die in the Lord rest from their labors. Saul was getting scolded because he was trying to put Samuel back to work.

Did you not notice that Samuel knew exactly what was going on here on earth in Saul’s life, and was able to give him a prophetic word about what was going to happen?

There is no teaching in the Bible regarding praying to God through anyone else except Christ.

Praying FOR and Praying THROUGH is different. You need to get this right too. But remember, God already opened the door for us to pray directly through Jesus Christ to Him. You can pray for someone else, but you cannot pray on his behalf. The man himself must first pray to God. The only intercessor christians have is CHRIST.

It seems that you are suffering from a gross lack of understanding about the communion of saints, and the ministry of intercession.

I am curious how you see the difference between praying for someone, and praying on their 'behalf"?

I would also like to know how the list of saints in Heb. 11 manages to be witnesses to what we do if they are “asleep”?

 

[Rumpelstiltskin]

Of course they are “real brothers”! It is just that the Hebrews used the term "brothers’ differently than we.

Is there some reason both cannot be true?

Sure, there’s also no reason why Obama could not be living in your house too. I’m not talking about your postulations. I’m talking about what the Bible has NOT said. And since it has not said…I am not inclined nor obliged to believe your interpretation.

Well, we read it differently, don’t we? When Jesus refers to Mary as “Woman”, this is the title that was given to the first "Woman " (Eve - the mother of all living). In Rev. the woman clothed with the sun who gives birth to the redeemer of the world is the mother of all who follow her Son. She is the mother of all the living in the New Covenant.

And what comes after your alleged ‘title’ ? - ‘What has this concern of yours to do with me? My hour has not yet come’. So much for your ‘title’…:tsktsk:

Rumple, the NT was written by, for, and about Catholics. There is nothing in it that is not Catholic. Because it is a catholic book, there is no contradiction between it and the Catholic Sacred Tradition that produced it.

How do you write a book for a group of people who did not exist then? There were no catholics during the time of the apostles. Go read secular history.

These are apples and oranges Rumple. Jesus mediated our eternal salvation. No other could do that. When we intercede for one another, we are standing in the gap an spiriitually supporting one another. Has no one ever asked you to pray for them?

No one is asking for the mediation of our eternal salvation through anyone but Christ.

We also never ask the dead to do anything.

This only you can answer.

Actually, Samuel was not asleep. He scolded Paul for disturbing his “rest”. The saints who die in the Lord rest from their labors. Saul was getting scolded because he was trying to put Samuel back to work.

Did you not notice that Samuel knew exactly what was going on here on earth in Saul’s life, and was able to give him a prophetic word about what was going to happen?

ACTUALLY???..why do you say Actually as if you were there with him? Were you also dead? Or were you the medium? Don’t tell me something which you do not have 1st hand information on and without written affirmation.

It seems that you are suffering from a gross lack of understanding about the communion of saints, and the ministry of intercession.

I am curious how you see the difference between praying for someone, and praying on their 'behalf"?

I would also like to know how the list of saints in Heb. 11 manages to be witnesses to what we do if they are “asleep”?

Thanks, for your diagnosis. You should go sign up and be a doctor. How do they become witnesses? When they awake.

 

[LilyM]

Thanks, for your diagnosis. You should go sign up and be a doctor. How do they become witnesses? When they awake.

What, at the end of time when their witness is useless in converting anyone? Or interceding for anyone? No.

Moreover, your belief makes a lie of Christ’s promise that those who believe in Him will NEVER die. He didn’t say ‘oh, they’ll be dead as dodos, but only for a couple of thousand years’. Being dead - and an inert, inactive, unaware soul can be nothing other than dead - for a couple of thousand years and then resurrected is NOT the same thing at all as NEVER dying, is it?

 

[Dokimas]

Dokimas;6815818:

My genuine apologies.

I honestly thought you’d picked up the idea that ‘adelphoi’ means ‘uterine siblings’ from some Greek ‘scholar’ or other external source, and I was criticising the teaching. Not criticising you at all (one isn’t necessarily responsible for having had bad teachers).

But you don’t mean to say you formulate your ideas totally in isolation. The idea is nonsense.

You don’t just sit in a room with your bible and the Lord and nothing more, after all. You DO go to church, you DO hear preaching that expounds various scriptural interpretations that hadn’t occurred to you before but which you agree with and adopt, you discuss scripture (hopefully) with other people, with the same effect.

No man is an island, and no man’s thoughts are entirely his or her own.

You don’t owe me an apology. You owe the ones you were being wrong about. I own my opinions for better or for worse. I won’t blame any church for my mistakes. At least that’s my plan now. I might wimp out later.

You are correct; I don’t make up my mind totally in a vacuum. When I say things that are in agreement with some from the CC here at CAF, they comment that that was very catholic of me or I got that understanding from the CC. I’m not real sure about that, but your are correct, I’ve heard hundreds of messages in my life, may more. I’ve preached or taught Bible studies many, many times. I give credit for my correct understandings to all who have had (name removed by moderator)ut; I take responsibility for my wrong ones.

 

[Dokimas]

It is not a personal attack, Doki, but an observation on the facts. You are obviously not a bible scholar.

I’ve never claimed to be a scholor. However, telling me that is not a personal attack. It’s the way you communicate that’s personal. And, unless I claim to be a scholar, what’s the importance of saying I’m no scholar? What’s you reasoning for it? I surely know.

As we discussed on the other thread, the willingness to learn requires that one be open to other points of view. If you are so hurt when it is observed that your conclusions indicate a lack of scholarship, the hurt feelings can easily prevent you from being open to learning. All of us started with a woefully inadequate scholarship, don’t you think? Even my hero the amazing Father John Corapi started there.

You have not shown an openness to understandings different than those of the CC. You ask of me what you will not do. BTW, there’s much more for you to loose than for me (if I’m correct vs if you are correct - and I’m NOT refering to salvation. You hold the teachings of the CC so high, I can’t imagine what people like you will do if one or two of those teaching are shown to be inaccurate?).

Then why ask me to change my understanding unless you can do a better job of clearing up my misunderstandings. IMO, you have given good responses and I’ve commented I made some mistakes in missing some things in the discussion and in the Bible. However, except for those few times, you have NOT given me any reason to change my understandings to fall in line with you and the CC.

Ok, but I want you to know that you have demonstrated why I do not ask you what you mean. When I am incorrect, instead of correcting my misunderstanding you get hurt, and “refuse to read further or many any comments”. This has been a pattern of yours for a long time now. You get angry when you are misunderstood, but you are not willing to address the misunderstanding.

The highlighted part is WRONG. I don’t get hurt. I could care less. I have answered most of your wrong understandings of what I’ve said. It gets soooooo frustrating to hear from you what I’m saying or what I believe when I KNOW that’s not what I’ve said nor is it what I believe.

You have done it so many times, sometimes I refuse to read any further. What makes me think the rest of your post will be correct if you are incorrect about me sooooooooo often.

I am taking your assertions to their logical conclusion. You don’t seem to agree with the conclusion. Maybe you should consider not making the assertion?

If your comments to me are your examples of logic, then maybe you as good at logic as I’m am at being scholarly.

when you say “what was God supposed to do, stop the lots in thin air?”, you come across sounding like you believe God is too weak to take action.

Then you are not following the conversation. You tell me that it’s obvious that God chose Matthias. Your logic seems to be that, ‘see the lots fell on him.’ Peter and the others chose two poeple and then cast lots. My question was, ‘if God did not choose him, how would He have shown them they were wrong in their two choices, by the lots being suspended in air?’

There’s nothing in that comment that even appears to be weakness on God’s part.

I have not seen you comment on this question: did Jesus cast lots to find out if God had chosen the original 12?

 

[Dokimas]

In reality, It makes no difference to me whether she remained virginal until her death. While I think she must have been quite some lady to be chosen to mother Him, if God saw no purpose for her to remain a virgin, so be it. Then His brothers and sisters could well have been His biolgical half-siblings. What was fine with the Creator is fine with me.

On the other hand, that skeptic , in God’s paticular way, if He so chose, could be shown that proof.

Her virginity was a sign to mankind that the King of the Jews had been born. I think it makes sense that that “sign”-her virginity- remain unviolated.

It has nothing to do with any maryism, queenship, co-redemptrix, all of which is unscriptural.

How did everyone know Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus?

 

[Dokimas]

I can see where you’re coming from. It may just be that he is living in denial.

Actually I don’t live in Africa at all. I’ve never been off the NA continent.

 

[elvisman]

How did everyone know Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus?

Scripture and Tradition - certainly not the Bible as you know it.
It hadn’t been completed, compiled and canonized yet.

 

[elvisman]

Sure, there’s also no reason why Obama could not be living in your house too. I’m not talking about your postulations. I’m talking about what the Bible has NOT said. And since it has not said…I am not inclined nor obliged to believe your interpretation.

**Ummm . . .can you NAME any of them Jesus’ siblings)? **
Bet you can’t.

How do you write a book for a group of people who did not exist then? There were no catholics during the time of the apostles. Go read secular history.

The Apostles were Catholic (Acts 9:31).
Here, we see the first use of the term, “Catholic” in the original Greek (kata holos).

 

[Dokimas]

Scripture and Tradition - certainly not the Bible as you know it.
It hadn’t been completed, compiled and canonized yet.

My statement was to Doxiemom in response to:

[SIGN]Originally Posted by Doxiemom

Her virginity was a sign to mankind that the King of the Jews had been born. I think it makes sense that that “sign”-her virginity- remain unviolated.

[/SIGN]

I’m very glad you answered it the way you did and the way I expected. You help make my point to Doxiemom.

There was no ‘checking her’ to see if she remained a virgin. We take it by faith that she was a virgin when she delivered Jesus. Because the Bible tells us that Mary was a virgin when Jesus was born, she did not need to remain celibate for us to know, or for anyone else to know.

 

[Dokimas]

Scripture and Tradition - certainly not the Bible as you know it.
It hadn’t been completed, compiled and canonized yet.

Unnecessary in a conversation unless the person saying this looks down his nose at the person spoken to.

 

[Rightlydivide]

Unnecessary in a conversation unless the person saying this looks down his nose at the person spoken to.

Like my MIL told my wife, “if you lower your expectations enough, you will never be disappointed”.
Just do not expect things from people on an internet forum. Real life sure, but not in virtual life.

 

[elvisman]

Unnecessary in a conversation unless the person saying this looks down his nose at the person spoken to.

It’s just a historical fact - whether or not you agree with it.