Mary, the Immaculate Conception: Why?

[Jerry-Jet]

When God took away sanctifying grace from Adam and EveHe took it away from all their children as well.

God took it away from all mankind–transmission had nothing to do with it.

The reason Mary was Immaculately Conceived and Sanctifying Grace was restored to her was so that Jesus could fuse His perfect humanity with the perfect pre-fall humanity of Mary so that the perfect could be united with the perfect.

Lack of Sanctifying Grace is post-fall and is not perfect.

If Jesus united with that He would have an inclination towards sin.

That is impossible.

Jesus as God deserved to have a perfect humanity–the same type of perfect humanity that Adam and Eve possesed before they first sinned–a humanity so perfect that they were not ashamed to be naked because they had No Inclination towards sin.

One has that kind of perect humanity with no inclination towards sin when they have sanctifying grace.

Jesus always had sanctifying grace–what the Immaculate Conception of Mary insured was that Mary would have that Sanctifying Grace to to the point that not only would Christ’s divine nature would have sanctifying grace and be perfect–but also His human side–fused with Mary’s human side–would likewise be perfect with no inclination towards sin.

So you see Jesus and Mary really are different than any of us because they had no inclination towards sin.

That is only possible with SancitfyingGrace anSanctifying Grace is impossible with original sin because the very definition of original sin isn’t infection transmitted through the generations as the Protestants would maintain–but Lack of Sanctifying Grace given by God to all the generations after Adam and Eve.

And yes God does have the right to bestow Sanctifying Grace on whoever He wishes–He wasn’t bound to deny it to Mary as He denied it to all the rest of us!

Now some may ask–could God have let Mary be imperfect and filtered out all imperfection in Mary so Jesus could have still had a perfect humanity?

Yes God could have done it that way but if He had done it that way He would not have Reversed what Satan had accomplished with the first Eve.

By reversing what Satan accomplished with the first Eve in the second Eve Mary–God totally defeats Satan not only with the Perfection of His only begotten Son–but by redeeming Mary with Infused and not Imputed Transformative Sanctifying Grace–because of the Merits of his Son.

When God Filled Mary with grace He proved that He was more powerful than Satan. It was as if God was saying that He could give Mary enough grace so she wouldn’t have to fall to sin like the first Eve did.

Mary is the Eve that had sense enough not to mess up! She had Sancifying Grace and not original sin–More than that God Filled Her with grace–and Mary exercised the freedom of will that God gave her and instead of her mesing up like the first Eve did–she gave her fiat “Let it be done to me according to Your will.”

Mary being able to remain sinless is not hard to understand if you believe that if God gives you so much grace that you are Full of Grace and can’t hold anymore–and that you’re intimately tied to Jesus as His mother and follower–tell me this–if that can’t defeat Satan and make Mary free from sin–wouldn’t that be saying that Satan was more powerful than God?

The Immaculate conception just makes sense–not because of who Mary is–but because of who Jesus is!

If Jesus treuly was God–He deserved nothing less than an Immaculately Conceived Full of Grace Ever Virgin Always Sinless Assumed into Heaven and Crowned Queen Mother!

And if He were truely Man he deserved to unite his Perfect Humanity with the Perfect Humanity of His mother so He could indeed be Perfect Man!

The Immaculate Conception accomplished all of this because guess what–Satan could not box God in–God was much smarter and used the Immaculately Conceived Mary in salvation history as the Ark of the New Convenant Jesus who saved and redeemed us all!

 

[Jaypeeto4]

I believe your definition of “Original Sin” is a bit watered down. We have inherited a much deeper problem than a “lack of sanctifying grace”. We’ve inherited condemnation (spiritual death). Water baptism cannot make you right with God. It cannot give you spiritual life. Only Faith on Jesus can do that. It is impossible to please God without Faith.

Believers, you are mistaken brother.
Water baptism is a sacrament IN WHICH THE HOLY SPIRIT ACTS to IMPART His Grace to the Soul. If only mature people who are capable of having Saving Faith can be re-born, then all babies and tiny children are damned without exception, since, being so young, they are not capable of making a mature and deliberate decision to accept Jesus as their Savior.
Now, even BEFORE you are baptized, the Holy Spirit works on your soul, quickening you and drawing you toward God. ( I am now speaking of un-regenerate mature people ). But the actual spiritual rebirth, by which you are incorporated into Christ, is done by the Holy Spirit normatively at baptism. That is why we baptize babies and little children incapable of choosing Christ consciously. Why take a chance on them not being able to reach heaven if they should die too young to choose Jesus ??
Jesus didn’t say, “Unless a man be born of the Holy Spirit Alone, he cannot enter Heaven,” no, what he SAID was:
“Unless a man be born of Water AND the Holy Spirit he cannot enter the Kingdom of God.” WATER AND the Holy Spirit.
Not water alone.

God bless,
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+

 

[believers]

It has nothing to do with the Immaculate Conception…its just a troll trying to stir up trouble.

Pro 18:21
Death and life [are] in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.

Eph 5:2-5
And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Jam 4:11
Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of [his] brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.

 

[guanophore]

believers, you are posting off topic in a thread. You are picking fights over doctrine that has already been explained to you repeatedly. It is known to all here that you do not agree with or accept Catholic teachings. You posted a message, as is your habit, with the intention of propagating your truncated understanding of the gospel of Christ. … You are not here to ask questions, or to learn, which is the purpose of the forum. You are here to dispute. No one has spoken any evil about you. We have observed your actions, and recognized them for what they are.

 

[Crumpy]

The Catholic Church does not teach that it was “necessary” and that Mary “had” to be preserved but only that it was “fitting” and “proper” that she be preserved Original Sin.

So why was she preserved? We can only guess at the motives of God but it seems that, from all the various ways He could have done it, God chose to restore mankind in a manner similar to that which caused mankind’s ruin. Since the ruin of mankind came about through the disobedience of a previously sinless man and woman, Adam and Eve, God chose to restore mankind through the obedience of another sinless man and woman, Jesus and Mary. Mankind was given a second chance to do the right thing and obey God’s commands with Jesus acting as Adam’s advocate and Mary as Eve’s. To this end, Jesus and Mary were given the same advantages that Adam and Eve enjoyed prior to their Original Sin.

Yes, these images also convey that Adam and Eve were the original church of God on earth. Mary and Jesus represent the the reformed church of God on earth.

I like to think of how we inherited original sin like this. When Adam and Eve were expelled from the garden of eden, so were we, weren’t we? What do you call this place we’re in now, paradise? I think scripture speaks to the point with this imagery.

 

[kaycee]

The reason Mary was Immaculately Conceived and Sanctifying Grace was restored to her was so that Jesus could fuse His perfect humanity with the perfect pre-fall humanity of Mary so that the perfect could be united with the perfect.

You dont find it strange that the God who can do all things, just could’nt quite perfect Jesus with just a regular virgin.

Jesus as God deserved to have a perfect humanity–the same type of perfect humanity that Adam and Eve possesed before they first sinned–a humanity so perfect that they were not ashamed to be naked because they had No Inclination towards sin.

Jesus always had sanctifying grace–what the Immaculate Conception of Mary insured was that Mary would have that Sanctifying Grace to to the point that not only would Christ’s divine nature would have sanctifying grace and be perfect–but also His human side–fused with Mary’s human side–would likewise be perfect with no inclination towards sin.

Soooo, Mary’s mother was also perfect as well to fuse Mary’s body to be perfect with no inclination towards sin. Sooo also Mary’s entire ancestry would also have to be perfect as well, all the way back to Eve. That’s an interesting dillema

Now some may ask–could God have let Mary be imperfect and filtered out all imperfection in Mary so Jesus could have still had a perfect humanity?

Yes God could have done it that way but if He had done it that way He would not have Reversed what Satan had accomplished with the first Eve.

But if He did we would’nt have all this Mary worship and who could live with that?

The Immaculate conception just makes sense–not because of who Mary is–but because of who Jesus is!

Theology based on assumptions, appropriateness or human rationalization is not theology

If Jesus treuly was God–He deserved nothing less than an Immaculately Conceived Full of Grace Ever Virgin Always Sinless Assumed into Heaven and Crowned Queen Mother!

More theology based on appropriateness.

 

[Jaypeeto4]

Sinlessness doesn’t need to include Mary’s mother, for the simple reason that Mary is not God.
And Catholics do NOT worship Mary.

MODERATORS: we have another vicious smartaleck in here trying to stir up trouble. These posts are VERY uncharitable and ridiculing of our Holy Faith. This is not dialogue, it is vicious insults.
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+

 

[Jerry-Jet]

I don’t find it strange in the least that God would Choose to have Jesus’ Incarnation with a pre-fall perfect humanity possesing mother.

Why? Because the object of the Incarnation was not only Jesus’ advent into the world as both Perfect man and perfect God but to perfectly and totally redeem us.

The ultimate redemption is to redeem unto perfection.

If all Jesus came here for was to offer sacrifice to Cover sin instead of Transforming us unto perfection then He would be a small impotent god who would not be able to totally defeat Satan–not on His own which is quite easy–but in human souls with free will

If God couldn’t give any human enough grace to never sin then God was less powerful than Satan–God could never say that He could always beat Satan in a human’s soul. He can say that with Mary!

It is quite silly to say that Mary’s mother would have to be perfect too–she simply lacked sanctifying grace–the Only thing required for Mary to have perfect pre-fall humanity would be an infusion–not an Imputation–of that grace at the Exact moment of conception.

See “something” + “nothing” = “something”.

If “something” was there from the start then “nothing” could never effect anything!

That’s what happened with Sanctifying grace with Mary’s conception–since Sanctifying grace was applied at the exact simultaneous instant that Lack of sancitifying grace would have been present–then Lack of Sancifying grace or Original sin was rendered Null!

For people who can’t understand that maybe a baseball analogy would help–it’s like when someone tries to beat out a ground ball to first base–if there is an exact tie between the time the ball hits the first baseman’s glove and the time the baserunner’s foot hits first base then the baserunner is safe!

Lack of Sancifying grace and Sancitifying grace happening at the exact same time meant that Mary was Safe from Original sin!

The reason that doesn’t work with Jesus’ conception is because if Mary or anybody that God chose did not have sanctifying grace from the moment of their conception then their humanity would be flawed and the perfect God Jesus could not unite with Imperfect humanity.

If God had chosen to filter all sin out that Jesus would have come into contact when he fused with Mary we would still have the Catholic Church and Mary still would have been one of the greater saints such as St. Joseph.

We would be faced then with the reality that God would have been more particular about the Ark and how it protected the ten commandments then how the Mother of his only beggotten Son protected the Ark of the New Covenant!

And for all the protestant who deride “Appropriateness” God was very exacting that that Ark be treated appropriately–doesn’t his Son deserve even More Appropriateness?

Theology is the study of God. There can be no study of anything without some presuppositions or assumptions. Take all assumptions away and no intelligence or knowledge about God exists!

Why don’t Protestants just come out and say that they wish Mary had been a whore to further prove jesus’ sovereignty? Wouldn’t that be in line with marttin Luther who said if you’re going to sin then sin boldly? But of course even martin Luther thought that mary was perpetual virgin.

Satan hadn’t pushed the reformation far enough on the road to hell as he has nowadays whith some protestants who say that Mary wasn’t ever virgin.

And while they’re at it look and see how much love for Mary–true love that comes from Jesus in their heart spews forth when they proclaim with pride that she wasn’t perfect!

Do their exclamations seem like they come from love or do you see the smallest tinge of bitterness?

The Real reason they are bitter is that they can’t stand the fact that God would favor Anyone that much. Like Lucifer they Envy that amount of grace!

Also ask those same people if they had lived in 35AD if they would have confessed their sins to the disciples that Jesus had given the authority to forgive and retain sin?

My guess is thast the same Pride filled people that Envy Mary and can’t stand God giving her that much grace are the same people who wouldn’t respect Jesus’ authority to transfer His authroity in part to the disicples to forgive and retain sin.

Satan and his followers are consistent. They don’t respect God granting extrordinary grace to Mary–and they don’t respect Jesus granting authority to the disciples!

 

[Jaypeeto4]

Good post, Jerry-Jet !!
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+

 

[VociMike]

You dont find it strange that the God who can do all things, just could’nt quite perfect Jesus with just a regular virgin.

Once again, a Protestant arguing against Catholic teaching sounds like an atheist. An atheist could just as easily try and cast doubt on Christ’s sacrifice by noting that God, who can do all things, couldn’t figure out a way to save humanity without subjecting His Son to torture and death.

It busts me up when Protestants are reduced to arguing like atheists.

 

[goofyjim]

I once heard Fr. Pablo Straub give an excellent reason why this dogma had to be true. Forgive me Father if I misquote you. He said if Mary had not been immaculately conceived the devil could then have said to Jesus, “I once had your mother”. God is outside of time. He can apply the effects of the redemptive act of Jesus death on the cross at any point in our lives. He chose to do this for Mary at the moment of conception.

 

[kaycee]

If all Jesus came here for was to offer sacrifice to Cover sin instead of Transforming us unto perfection then He would be a small impotent god who would not be able to totally defeat Satan–not on His own which is quite easy–but in human souls with free will

If God couldn’t give any human enough grace to never sin then God was less powerful than Satan–God could never say that He could always beat Satan in a human’s soul. He can say that with Mary!

It is quite silly to say that Mary’s mother would have to be perfect too–she simply lacked sanctifying grace–the Only thing required for Mary to have perfect pre-fall humanity would be an infusion–not an Imputation–of that grace at the Exact moment of conception.

since Sanctifying grace was applied at the exact simultaneous instant that Lack of sancitifying grace would have been present–then Lack of Sancifying grace or Original sin was rendered Null!

This explanation seems highly speculative on many levels and novel even within the catholic apologist arena. Assumptions without support abound. The scripture shows that Jesus was sinless and defeated Satan, the need to show that somehow Mary being sinless by “infused grace” was needed to defeat Satan is illogical. Other bad ssumptions about the basic understanding of the nature of Grace, “Sanctifying Grace”, and assumptions that Jesus needed a “sanctified” virgin as opposed to just a virgin.

Lack of Sancifying grace and Sancitifying grace happening at the exact same time meant that Mary was Safe from Original sin!

Again, not logical, why not grace “infused” 5 minutes before the conception of Jesus. There are way to many false assumptions to be a coherent argument.

The reason that doesn’t work with Jesus’ conception is because if Mary or anybody that God chose did not have sanctifying grace from the moment of their conception then their humanity would be flawed and the perfect God Jesus could not unite with Imperfect humanity.

How do you know that?

If God had chosen to filter all sin out that Jesus would have come into contact when he fused with Mary we would still have the Catholic Church and Mary still would have been one of the greater saints such as St. Joseph.

We would be faced then with the reality that God would have been more particular about the Ark and how it protected the ten commandments then how the Mother of his only beggotten Son protected the Ark of the New Covenant!

And for all the protestant who deride “Appropriateness” God was very exacting that that Ark be treated appropriately–doesn’t his Son deserve even More Appropriateness?

Major doctrine cannot be derived by typology and appropriatness alone.

Why don’t Protestants just come out and say that they wish Mary had been a whore to further prove jesus’ sovereignty?

hmmmm, I must be hanging around with a different group of protestants. I have never heard anyone say anything like that. Have you?

Wouldn’t that be in line with marttin Luther who said if you’re going to sin then sin boldly? But of course even martin Luther thought that mary was perpetual virgin.

I am sure you can make Luther say anything you like out of context.

Satan hadn’t pushed the reformation far enough on the road to hell as he has nowadays whith some protestants who say that Mary wasn’t ever virgin.

How does that reflect negatively on God or Jesus in the slightest?

And while they’re at it look and see how much love for Mary–true love that comes from Jesus in their heart spews forth when they proclaim with pride that she wasn’t perfect!

“For all have sinned and fall short”

Do their exclamations seem like they come from love or do you see the smallest tinge of bitterness?

Isa 42:8
"I am the Lord; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols.

The Real reason they are bitter is that they can’t stand the fact that God would favor Anyone that much. Like Lucifer they Envy that amount of grace!

Sounds like a guess to me. Protestants do not find in scripture what is asserted by “tradition” about Mary. Plain and simple.

My guess is thast the same Pride filled people that Envy Mary and can’t stand God giving her that much grace are the same people who wouldn’t respect Jesus’ authority to transfer His authroity in part to the disicples to forgive and retain sin.

Satan and his followers are consistent. They don’t respect God granting extrordinary grace to Mary–and they don’t respect Jesus granting authority to the disciples!

Your guesses at reasons of envy are certainly novel.

Protestants try to be consistent and stay with Apostolic teaching as found in the scripture and try not to read 1000 year old “tradition” back into the 2000 year old Apostolic Word of God.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

kaycee:

This explanation seems highly speculative on many levels and novel even within the catholic apologist arena.

Evidence for your claim please? Start out with what the Church teaches on this please.

kaycee:

Assumptions without support abound.

Perhaps, but your post is no different.

kaycee:

The scripture shows that Jesus was sinless and defeated Satan, the need to show that somehow Mary being sinless by “infused grace” was needed to defeat Satan is illogical.

How is it illogical?

kaycee:

Other bad ssumptions about the basic understanding of the nature of Grace, “Sanctifying Grace”, and assumptions that Jesus needed a “sanctified” virgin as opposed to just a virgin.

Saying that the assumptions are bad don’t make them so.

kaycee:

I am sure you can make Luther say anything you like out of context.

There is no need to take Luther out of context.

kaycee:

Isa 42:8 "I am the Lord; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols.

Relevance?

kaycee:

Sounds like a guess to me. Protestants do not find in scripture what is asserted by “tradition” about Mary. Plain and simple.

So? What is your point?

kaycee:

Protestants try to be consistent and stay with Apostolic teaching as found in the scripture and try not to read 1000 year old “tradition” back into the 2000 year old Apostolic Word of God.

Reading history would be pulling the rug out from under Luther’s feet.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

You dont find it strange that the God who can do all things, just could’nt quite perfect Jesus with just a regular virgin.

Gosh, God who can do all things could have brought forth Jesus from a Protestant for that matter.

But He didn’t.

History again.

 

[kaycee]

Evidence for your claim please?

Is this church teaching?

“If God couldn’t give any human enough grace to never sin then God was less powerful than Satan–**God could never say that He could always beat Satan in a human’s soul. **He can say that with Mary!”

Perhaps, but your post is no different.

What assumptions of mine are you referring to?

How is it illogical?

You think that Mary needed to be infused with Grace to defeat Satan is logical?

 

[Jerry-Jet]

No one believes that Kaycee–it would be logical to assume that for God to be able to totally defeat Satan that a demonstration of that in a human soul while not absolutely necessary would be quite Illustrative.

Now of course maybe God wouldn’t mind saying that every single human that He ever created was not able to abstain from Sin and that Satan did best Him in that regard.

Does that make more sense than Reversing what Eve had done wrong with Mary not doing what was wrong?

And why does that absolutely tare you up to pieces Kaycee?

If god wanted mary to be sinless why does that incense you?

Do you glory and are you happy at the thought that No One after Adama and Eve in your view was sinless?

Are you glad that no one is perfect?

Does it make you happy that God allows everyone after Adam and Eve to sin and does it make you happy that he never restores the sanctifying grace that they had to no one?

Does that make God a more Loving Perfect God?

 

[kaycee]

No one believes that Kaycee–it would be logical to assume that for God to be able to totally defeat Satan that a demonstration of that in a human soul while not absolutely necessary would be quite Illustrative.

Now of course maybe God wouldn’t mind saying that every single human that He ever created was not able to abstain from Sin and that Satan did best Him in that regard.

Does that make more sense than Reversing what Eve had done wrong with Mary not doing what was wrong?

And why does that absolutely tare you up to pieces Kaycee?

Ummmm, cause it contradicts scripture. Is’nt that enough?

If god wanted mary to be sinless why does that incense you?

If God wanted it, I would have no problem.

Do you glory and are you happy at the thought that No One after Adama and Eve in your view was sinless?

Are you glad that no one is perfect?

Does it make you happy that God allows everyone after Adam and Eve to sin and does it make you happy that he never restores the sanctifying grace that they had to no one?

Does that make God a more Loving Perfect God?

God hates sin and punishes it. Other people sinning does not make me happy. Guess I am not following your cryptic line of questions here ?

 

[Church_Militant]

Ummmm, cause it contradicts scripture. Is’nt that enough?

No…It contradicts your interpretation of scripture…there is scriptural support for this belief.

If God wanted it, I would have no problem.

And you cannot prove from either scripture of Sacred Tradition that He did not…but again there is a very logical and scriptural case to be made for the Immaculate Conception.

God hates sin and punishes it. Other people sinning does not make me happy. Guess I am not following your cryptic line of questions here ?

No surprise there…you begin all your theology from the fallacy of Sola Scriptura (itself an unscriptural error and subject of a great many other threads around here.) When you cannot fit something into the fallacious theology that is the basis for all your belief system then you cannot follow it.

Essentially once you took that first wrong turn you got lost and ever since you suffer from theological confusion and disorientation because you are now literally in a “you can’t get there from here” situation.

 

[kaycee]

No…It contradicts your interpretation of scripture.Actually I believe the magisterium has NOT infallibly interpreted that verse. So its actually your “private” interpretation as well.

there is scriptural support for this belief. And you cannot prove from either scripture of Sacred Tradition that He did not

 

[Church_Militant]

Actually I believe the magisterium has NOT infallibly interpreted that verse. So its actually your “private” interpretation as well.

Wrong again… The magisterium (unlike n-C churches) does not sit down and try to offer an interpretation of every verse of scripture, and the textual evidence is there regardless of your response to it. I have no private interpretation…I don’t play at that.

Arguments from silence is hardly the foundation for major doctrine.
Yes, i suppose any doctrine you want to find biblical support for can be “found” depending on the size of the shoe horn. I draw the line at elephant shoe horn.

Yeah? Me too…especially Sola Scriptura, so you have refuted yourself. I didn’t need the help, but thanks anyway…

I always get a kick out of Catholic apologists degrading and decrying the inadequacy of Scripture.

See! Again, you choose to attack something that is not a Catholic teaching…but merely your disagreement with what you wish was Catholic teaching.

You seem to love attacking straw men and I guess you feel better when you have defeated them. Too bad they aren’t actually Catholic teachings…