M
mark_a
Guest
No.
The hypostatic union is an unsolvable mystery and humanity is more than dna.
By the way, I haven’t put much thought into the op’s question, but my gut says no, unless Mary is the one who takes away pride.
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The hypostatic union is an unsolvable mystery and humanity is more than dna.
By the way, I haven’t put much thought into the op’s question, but my gut says no, unless Mary is the one who takes away pride.
J
John_Lawrence
Guest
So, along those lines, while it does not implicitly prove that you should have agreed with the statement “Christ is Christ regardless…” etc. it does not prove the opposite either.
M
mark_a
Guest
Oops, you caught me in an edit.
There is no proof. As soon as one of us has “proof” the other’s God will declare it ain’t so.
J
John_Lawrence
Guest
We have a different God…? I was not aware of this…
M
mark_a
Guest
Well of course not.
But for the sake of argument, would the same God give us different truths?
A
Allweather
Guest
Understand I am speaking only for myself and my own personal viewpoint. When I was a Protestant I never was able to relate to Jesus. My personal problem? I’d say so, though I believe that this is common among Protestants, and the reason is because they have no Mary in their faith lives. Jesus is a completely unique being, very, very, very unlike any human ever born. OTOH Mary is almost like us in every respect, the only real difference being her subjection to concupiscience, of which she had none.
Is Mary all that necessary? Probably not, but Mary was God’s choice, not mine or yours. We can have all kinds of what-ifs to wonder about, but the reality is that Mary is God’s choice, his method. Within this method lives very important information about God, and about us, and our relationship to God. I don’t pretend to have very much of this infomation yet; after all I am pretty dumb, and my prayer life isn’t what it could be. But one thing I can say without question: since I got to know Mary, I’ve gotten to know Jesus in very deep ways that I don’t believe would have been possible had I remained a Protestant with a big Mary allergy.
J
John_Lawrence
Guest
The point I am making is that the Catholic church seems to place more emphasis on Mary in specific than is really necesary. To the point where people who proclaim they feel a connection and the grace of God without the adoration of Mary are snickered at. Maybe not officially, but are at leastthought of as lacking in spirituality, that they may think they know Christ but without Mary they’ve only scratched the surface. That’s really a subjective matter of opinion.
And I guess it is true whatthey say, converts (to anything) are the biggest fanatics. You are convinced that before your conversion you were lacking (and if Catholicism works for you, then hey, that’s wonderful) and though you have the decency not to say as much, you more than likely feel I am lacking since I obviously do not share this official Adoration of Mary.
And I guess it is true whatthey say, converts (to anything) are the biggest fanatics. You are convinced that before your conversion you were lacking (and if Catholicism works for you, then hey, that’s wonderful) and though you have the decency not to say as much, you more than likely feel I am lacking since I obviously do not share this official Adoration of Mary.
S
Sabda
Guest
I’m sorry if you feel you are being treated like a jerk. I seriously doubt that is anyones intention. It’s certainly not mine.
Not just the Pope but the bishops also. The pope can speak infallibly yes, but there have also been infallible teachings handed down though councils which include not just the pope but the bishops also. So I wouldn’t say it’s just the pope.
As far as neutrality goes my point still stands. We are all biased.
S
Sabda
Guest
We do not worship Mary. Adoration (worship) is due to God and God alone. Mary is important because she is the Mother of God (second person in the Trinity). God did say to honor your mother. The Greek and Hebrew word means not just to honor but glorify.
I’m not a convert, I’m a cradle.
sigh Once again we do NOT worship Mary! 
Our official form of worship is the Mass and it most certainly is NOT about Mary.
M
mark_a
Guest
Who are you to say what is “really necessary”. As Billy Graham said, “As a reaction to Catholics, Protestants pay far too little attention to Mary.”
If you ever read the Gloria, or attended a mass, you will see that the emphasis on Mary just ain’t so.
Please.
Its a pretty Catholic thing to think that we can’t even “scratch the surface” of knowing Christ with or without Mary.
The insights from the lives of Mary and all the Saints can be very enriching and insightful.
We join them, along with the Angels in their unending hymn of praise:
Holy, Holy, Holy
God of power and might
Heaven and earth are full of your Glory
Hosanna in the highest
Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord
Hosanna in the highest.
C
christcnection1
Guest
Your words are strong and potentially hurtful. I recognize why you might think some of these things, but they do not always hold true. Adoration basically equals worship. You can claim that we worship her, but we offically do not. Until we do, I don’t think it’s fair for you to claim something we not offically believe.
What may appear to be worship to you is not what’s burning in our hearts. This is something one can explain through words, but can only truly be understood once put into practice and lived out. From personal experience, praying that first “Hail Mary” was terrifying to me.
After doing it a short time, and experiencing rapid growth in holiness, and powerful protection from demonic forces, one becomes inclined to think there is something to the Rosary.
To keep this in perspective, the goal of the Catholic Christian is union with Jesus Christ, not a personal relationship alone, as important as that is. To unite oneself with Mary, is to unite oneself with Jesus Christ. The Sacraments are meant for the same purpose: to bring us into greater union with the Lord.
This is part of our true worship to Him. He wants us to be perfect, even as He is perfect. This is why we eat His flesh and drink His blood in the Holy Eucharist. As we are open to His grace, we become what we eat (Christlike). This is why we try to imitate Mary’s “yes” in all things.
To give Him perfect love means we do all things for Him, through Him, and in Him in all things. This beckons us to an array of gifts He has generously bestowed on His beloved people. He has provided means to a greater end: the perfection of our souls.
I am a convert to the Catholic faith from Evangelical Protestantism and have experienced profound graces through the Catholic Church. Yes, we agree something is lacking; however, the vast majority have learned to love Jesus and grow in a personal relationship with Him through one or more of these groups.
I praise God for every second of my experience within these churches. They are truly God’s children. I believe Catholics can, and have learned much from Non-Catholic Christians.
When it comes to true veneration or devotion to Mary, the proof is in the pudding. When we see Protestant “saints” with the same zeal as Mother Theresa, St. Dominic, St. John Vianney and a litany of others, I think you have a strong argument.
I’m not belittling my separated brethren; far from it! Rather, I rejoice in the tender, but powerful aids the Lord of hosts has given His Church. The Blessed Virgin is among the most important.
Dear friend, when I see Christians who deny the Blessed Virgin Mary and have the same kind of holiness and zeal as the Saints, I actually believe your words would carry a lot of weight. Truly!
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. (Revelations 12:17)
If you’re in Christ, she’s your mother too. Our Lord didn’t give us a mother for no reason.
There is a beautiful song that goes… “Immaculate Heart of Mary, immerse me in the Trinity. Deepen my love for the Father, Son, and Spirit.”
This is precisely what it’s about. Our love of God is to be perfected.
imagesofheaven.org/Index/BVM.html
May our dear Lord bless you and grant you His peace.
A
Allweather
Guest
It only seems so to an outsider.
There is nothing to fear from Mary. Why don’t you try some Marian devotion? You’ve got nothing to lose.
I highly recommend the Rosary. The Rosary is a meditation upon certain events in the lives of Jesus and Mary.
Rather than just “theorizing” about Mary, why not go deep into the life of the Blessed Virgin, via Scripture, and see if there is anything she can teach about Jesus.
I
Indyann
Guest
Did you even bother to read the article? The reason it is posted in the noncatholic religions is because this is the title of the article written by a PROTESTANT minister. He obviously believes that Mary is the key to Christian unity. So sorry that you disagree.
C
Crumpy
Guest
There are many protestant churches that profess to be “full gospel” churches.
I have the NIV, Ryrie, and KJV bibles and guess what? They all have this woman in there who is named “Mary.”
Every one quotes her as saying that all generations shall call her “blessed.”
Yes, indeed, as the Pope says in his recent book Jesus of Nazareth, all the scriptures are about Jesus. He is God. He is the Son of the Father, He is the prophet greater than Moses foretold at the end of the book of Deuteronomy. He is, as the Pope shows in scripture, the Living Torah, the word of God.
In the book by Von Balthasaar and by the Pope that I referred to in an earlier post, VB points out that the Mary’s Motherhood of Jesus is a christological statement – that is, it focuses on Jesus.
John Lawrence’s previous post about the “adoration” of Mary is an example of the incorrect stereotypes that some protestants have of Mary.
Catholics no more express adoration of Mary, than they do of St. Paul, who the Pope has recently announced will be the subject of the upcoming Jubilee Year, 2008, to celebrate the 2000th year anniversary of the birth of St. Paul.
No Catholic is required to say even one Hail Mary or Rosary or to have a statue of Mary or of anybody. This is something also that gives protestants a stereotype of Catholics.
We’re re-hashing the reformation here, it seems. Whereas the reformation started on the basis of specific objections and complaints, it has blossomed into a full-scale rejection of everything that is Catholic or seems Catholic.
Mary is a fairly important person in scripture, period. She is not a nameless man, woman, or child that is referred to. She is mentioned by name, a number of times. And, she is not merely quoted indirectly by paraphrasing, she speaks in scripture, and she is quoted verbatim. And, she is quoted several times.
We full-gospel Catholics feel it is not right to do anything less than pay attention to the full gospel, and even listen to what Mary has to say in scripture. The fact that what she says is in scripture, says that she is talking to us. We are fondly familiar with her and take inspiration from her.
What do the protestants say so proudly? Aren’t even they quoting 2 Tim 3:16f all the time? Here it is: All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that one who belongs to God may be competent, equipped for every good work.
Can we establish anything here with this back-and-forth bickering? Can we please get beyond it?
Mary is IN scripture and she even speaks to us – for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that we who belong to God may be COMPETENT and EQUIPPED for every good work.
Unless the protestants have found a way to throw out A LOT of verses of scripture, then they’d better “step up to the plate.” OR
ELSE stop calling themselves Christian. In this rejection of scripture, as the Pope says in JON, the Antichrist is at work among some Christians.
Here’s also a good example of Catholics being more fundamentalist than the fundamentalists, thumping our bibles on many verses, such as Luke 1:46.
I have the NIV, Ryrie, and KJV bibles and guess what? They all have this woman in there who is named “Mary.”
Every one quotes her as saying that all generations shall call her “blessed.”
Yes, indeed, as the Pope says in his recent book Jesus of Nazareth, all the scriptures are about Jesus. He is God. He is the Son of the Father, He is the prophet greater than Moses foretold at the end of the book of Deuteronomy. He is, as the Pope shows in scripture, the Living Torah, the word of God.
In the book by Von Balthasaar and by the Pope that I referred to in an earlier post, VB points out that the Mary’s Motherhood of Jesus is a christological statement – that is, it focuses on Jesus.
John Lawrence’s previous post about the “adoration” of Mary is an example of the incorrect stereotypes that some protestants have of Mary.
Catholics no more express adoration of Mary, than they do of St. Paul, who the Pope has recently announced will be the subject of the upcoming Jubilee Year, 2008, to celebrate the 2000th year anniversary of the birth of St. Paul.
No Catholic is required to say even one Hail Mary or Rosary or to have a statue of Mary or of anybody. This is something also that gives protestants a stereotype of Catholics.
We’re re-hashing the reformation here, it seems. Whereas the reformation started on the basis of specific objections and complaints, it has blossomed into a full-scale rejection of everything that is Catholic or seems Catholic.
Mary is a fairly important person in scripture, period. She is not a nameless man, woman, or child that is referred to. She is mentioned by name, a number of times. And, she is not merely quoted indirectly by paraphrasing, she speaks in scripture, and she is quoted verbatim. And, she is quoted several times.
We full-gospel Catholics feel it is not right to do anything less than pay attention to the full gospel, and even listen to what Mary has to say in scripture. The fact that what she says is in scripture, says that she is talking to us. We are fondly familiar with her and take inspiration from her.
What do the protestants say so proudly? Aren’t even they quoting 2 Tim 3:16f all the time? Here it is: All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that one who belongs to God may be competent, equipped for every good work.
Can we establish anything here with this back-and-forth bickering? Can we please get beyond it?
Mary is IN scripture and she even speaks to us – for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that we who belong to God may be COMPETENT and EQUIPPED for every good work.
Unless the protestants have found a way to throw out A LOT of verses of scripture, then they’d better “step up to the plate.” OR
ELSE stop calling themselves Christian. In this rejection of scripture, as the Pope says in JON, the Antichrist is at work among some Christians.
Here’s also a good example of Catholics being more fundamentalist than the fundamentalists, thumping our bibles on many verses, such as Luke 1:46.
P
paarsurrey
Guest
J
Jerusha
Guest
One of Mary’s messages is respect for women. She definitely acts as messenger to her people. Most Protestant sects have lost that.
G
Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
If all things had been created in her, & for her, & existed for her - then she would be. She, like all other creatures, exists only to be to the praise of the Glory of God - so the answer is, “No”. The answer could only be “Yes” if she were Jesus Christ. And she isn’t:
- Col 1:13 He has delivered us from the dominion of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,
- Col 1:14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
- Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation;
- Col 1:16 for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities–all things were created through him and for him.
- Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
- Col 1:18 He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the first-born from the dead, that in everything he might be pre-eminent.
- Col 1:19 For in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell,
- Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
If He were a saint, and only a saint, & if she were God, the answer would be different. But He’s not, & she’s not - so it’s not
M
MelanieAnne
Guest
With all due respect, your thoughts about Mary are typical of non-Catholics who know little or nothing about the Catholic faith. It might be better, and certainly more respectful, if you actually find out what the Catholic faith teaches about Mary before you tell Catholics what they believe.
And when I appeal to you to be more respectful, I’m not just asking you to be respectful to us Catholics reading posts on this forum, I’m also suggesting that you might want to show some respect for Mary out of your love for Jesus. Since Mary is the mother of Jesus, showing respect for her is completely consistent with love for Jesus. Indeed, it would be completely understandable that Jesus would be offended by any lack of respect shown towards His mother.
G
Goth_Catholic
Guest
I think Mary herself answered this question for us.
“One day through the rosary and the scapular, I will save the world.”
“One day through the rosary and the scapular, I will save the world.”
G
Goth_Catholic
Guest
I belive Mary herself answered this question for us
“One day through the rosary and scapular I will save the world.” The Blessed Virgin to Saint Dominic
“One day through the rosary and scapular I will save the world.” The Blessed Virgin to Saint Dominic
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