Mary the mediatrix

[Peter_J]

Ruthie sorry to jump in here but I see this claim made by Catholics all the time and it makes no sense at all. No disrespect but Mary did not have the option of saying no. She was told she would conceive and have a child. The Angel did not ask her for permission.

Gabriel did not explicitly ask her for permission, but I think that the Bible and Church teaching both leave open the possibility that Mary had a choice.

Look at it this way: Gabriel also told Zechariah that Elizabeth would conceive … and yet the actual conception was nevertheless contingent on Zechariah and Elizabeth 's future actions. So, in some sense they had a choice. Well then, why not Mary as well?

I think the better question to ask is, Why do we even bother speculating about whether Mary “had a choice” or not? (I can’t really imagine early Christians debating that issue, can you?) Hmm … maybe it’s a kind of feminist / antifeminst thing. I.e. the Bible says Mary was told she would have a child … and then feminism immediately replies “But she didn’t have to have a child. She had a child because she wanted to.” and then anti-feminism says “No, the fact that she wanted to have a child is irrelevant. She was told that she would have a child – she never decided to have a child.” In my personal opinion, both types of speculation are extremely silly.

 

[swariffin]

Mary can pray with you but nobody needs her to to pray to God for them in an exclusive fashion as if he cannot hear their prayers or understand them.

Where does Scripture say that because Jesus came to us through Mary, we must go to Jesus through Mary? That’s just a play on words.

The Canaan wedding story is a good example of mediatrix of man to Jesus. As Jesus is also God (John 1:1), then it is also true that Mary is the mediatrix of man to God (i.e to Jesus). No game of words. All are in the scripture. Unless you don’t believe that Jesus is God.

 

[Peter_J]

You may say that Mary takes nothing from Jesus but the church believes she holds a special intercessory power that’s over and above anyone. Please show that to me in scripture other than the terrible example of the wedding feast at Cana.

It’s been a couple years since I read the ARCIC document Mary: Grace and Hope in Christ, but I remember liking it’s commentary on the wedding feast at Cana (paragraphs 23-25) quite a lot.

 

[nbtb1348]

It’s been a couple years since I read the ARCIC document Mary: Grace and Hope in Christ, but I remember liking it’s commentary on the wedding feast at Cana (paragraphs 23-25) quite a lot.

Interesting statement in ARCIC on the evolution of the doctrine and practice of praying to Mary…and more:

43 In the Late Middle Ages, scholastic theology grew increasingly apart from spirituality. Less and less rooted in scriptural exegesis, theologians relied on logical probability to establish their positions, and Nominalists speculated on what could be done by the absolute power and will of God. Spirituality, no longer in creative tension with theology, emphasized affectivity and personal experience. In popular religion, Mary came widely to be viewed as an intermediary between God and humanity, and even as a worker of miracles with powers that verged on the divine. This popular piety in due course influenced the theological opinions of those who had grown up with it, and who subsequently elaborated a theological rationale for the florid Marian devotion of the Late Middle Ages.

 

[swariffin]

Interesting statement in ARCIC on the evolution of the doctrine and practice of praying to Mary…and more:

43 In the Late Middle Ages, scholastic theology grew increasingly apart from spirituality. Less and less rooted in scriptural exegesis, theologians relied on logical probability to establish their positions, and Nominalists speculated on what could be done by the absolute power and will of God. Spirituality, no longer in creative tension with theology, emphasized affectivity and personal experience. In popular religion, Mary came widely to be viewed as an intermediary between God and humanity, and even as a worker of miracles with powers that verged on the divine. This popular piety in due course influenced the theological opinions of those who had grown up with it, and who subsequently elaborated a theological rationale for the florid Marian devotion of the Late Middle Ages.

If you combine John 1:1 and John 2:1-11, it does make sense. Theology is always based on rationale. There is no mathematical equation in theology.

 

[Good_Fella]

NDfan doesn’t need to be chastized by this rhetoric that’s been way played out. Most all Christians agree that Mary’s resounding “yes” was not only special but also historic. But, let’s keep it all in perspective. To keep spending this much effort and time on Mary is certainly taking attention and time away from the one who ALONE is our crystal fountain of faith and the one who is our Salvation, Jesus Christ. Unless Mary is to be worshipped along with God and is divine as God is, putting this much into the understanding of who she was and is is plainly ridiculous.

First of all, SIA, there’s no need for you to be so cynical by presuming I “chastised” NDFan. I can’t imagine what made you think that.

Second, what you mistake for rhetoric is a scriptural theme that has originally been developed and taught by the Church Fathers.

“For as Eve was seduced by the word of an angel to flee from God, having rebelled against His Word, so Mary by the word of an angel received the glad tidings that she would bear God. The former was seduced to disobey God, but the latter was persuaded to obey God, so that the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. As the human race was subjected to death through the act of a virgin, so it was saved by a virgin.”
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V: 19,1 (A.D. 180)

“I love to call her [Mary] Church. This mother, when alone, had not milk, because alone she was not a woman. But she is once virgin and mother – pure as a virgin, loving as a mother. And calling her children to her, she nurses them with holy milk, viz., with the Word for childhood.”
*Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, l:6 (A.D. 200) *

“Mary, the holy Virgin, is truly great before God and men. For how shall we not proclaim her great, who held within her the uncontainable One, whom neither heaven nor earth can contain?”
Epiphanius, Panarion, 30:31 (ante A.D. 403)

“O Virgin all holy, he who has said of you all that is honourable and glorious has not sinned against the truth, but remains unequal to your merit. Look down upon us from above and be propitious to us. Lead us in peace and having brought us without shame to the throne of judgment, grant us a place at the right hand of your Son.”
Basil of Seleucia, PG 85: 452 (ante A.D. 459)

Our Lord Jesus Christ makes it possible for Mary to mediate his divine grace and desires that she does in accord with the will of the Father. Paul tells the Corinthians that God has initiated a “new creation” with Jesus as the new Adam. The early Church Fathers, who succeeeded the Apostles and received their teachings through the medium of oral tradition, expanded on the theme in their perception of Mary as the new Eve. The name Eve means “mother of the living” (Gen 3:20). As Eve is the mother of the living in the natural order, so Mary is the mother of the living in the spiritual order: the order of grace (Jn 19: 26-27). Mary is indeed the new Eve, for the Son whom she bore is He whom God placed as “the first-born of many brethren” (Rom 8:29). As the spiritual mother of all Christians, Mary mediates grace and imparts spiritual life to her children, those who bear witness to Jesus and observe his commandments (Rev 12: 17).

As I pointed out above, Jesus is the source of all grace. But as branches on the vine we can channel his grace. Since Jesus has gained grace for us and entrusts it to us by imparting it according to the measure of our individual gifts, we are able to impart this grace to others. And we are expected not to bury our talents but increase their worth. In no way is Mary a rival for Jesus’ unique place of mediation. It is because of our Lord’s mediation that he is the source of all grace and imparts it to us for us to distribute for the salvation of others. Protestants like yourself are mistaken in their belief that Mary’s maternal role came to end in the history of salvation when she gave birth to Jesus in Bethlehem. On the contrary, it was just beginning. And your focus on Christ’s mediation is too narrow and excessive, grounded on pure rationalization apart from the Apostolic Tradition. Hence, we know from what quarter rhetoric actually springs from.

The maternal duty of Mary toward men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ but rather shows its power. For all the saving influences of the Blessed Virgin on men originate not from some inner necessity but from the divine pleasure. They flow from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rest on his mediation, and depend entirely on it, and draw all their power from it. In no way do they impede the immediate union of the faithful with Christ. Rather they foster this union.
Lumen Gentium 60

“The Lord has done great things for me,
and holy is his name.”

 

[Peter_J]

Interesting statement in ARCIC on the evolution of the doctrine and practice of praying to Mary…and more:

43 In the Late Middle Ages, scholastic theology grew increasingly apart from spirituality. Less and less rooted in scriptural exegesis, theologians relied on logical probability to establish their positions, and Nominalists speculated on what could be done by the absolute power and will of God. Spirituality, no longer in creative tension with theology, emphasized affectivity and personal experience. In popular religion, Mary came widely to be viewed as an intermediary between God and humanity, and even as a worker of miracles with powers that verged on the divine. This popular piety in due course influenced the theological opinions of those who had grown up with it, and who subsequently elaborated a theological rationale for the florid Marian devotion of the Late Middle Ages.

Yes, that is very interesting. (I’m probably due to read the whole document again.)

Incidentally, I think one of the achievements of the last few pontificates has been putting Scholasticism in proper perspective – i.e. acknowledging that it is a great source of enrichment, but not the be-all and end-all of Christianity.

 

[withwind]

Mary can pray with you but nobody needs her to to pray to God for them in an exclusive fashion as if he cannot hear their prayers or understand them.

Where does Scripture say that because Jesus came to us through Mary, we must go to Jesus through Mary? That’s just a play on words.

I do need Her! We are not for the Bible. It is obvious you can’t find everything said out plain in the Bible.

The pride really puts a big clouds over the mind of a few people.

 

[Peter_J]

The pride really puts a big clouds over the mind of a few people.

Not just “a few people” my friend.

 

[withwind]

The problem with some who misunderstand when we say we come to Mother Mary for help is that God cannot hear us if we come straight to Him.

Catholics do pray to God through Jesus Christ, but as all of us asking friends for intercession, we do ask those in Heaven especially Mother Mary who is the Mother of Christ.

To think a bit further, if God gives you gift, how would you use the gifts? to yourself only? or to share with others? Do you keep such spiritual gifts to yourself when you are in Heaven or you use it for the glory of God?

God does use us for His glory, and He certainly use His Mother for the same reason.

Go to Mother Mary, you can always find Jesus. Go to Mary, you will find God’s grace because She is full of grace and She share with us what God has given to Her.