Mary, the Mother of God

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What do Protestants have say about Martin Luther’s statement calling Mary the Mother of God?

From Martin Luther “Commentary on the Magnificat” –

“Men have crowded all her glory into a single phrase: THE MOTHER OF GOD. No one can say anything greater of her…”

“She is RIGHTLY called not only the mother of the man, but also THE MOTHER OF GOD…It is CERTAIN that Mary is THE MOTHER OF THE REAL AND TRUE GOD.”

“God is born…the child who drinks his Mother’s milk is eternal; he existed before the world’s beginning and he created heaven and earth…these two natures are so united that there is only ONE God and Lord, that Mary suckles God with her breasts, bathes God, rocks him, and carries him.”

God bless,
 
The following observations are from a follower of Christ who is neither Catholic or Protestant: Martin Luther was a Catholic priest before he was defrocked. He tried to “reform” from within.

That Mary, mother of Jesus, the Christ, is the Mother of God is a dogma not found in scripture. This doctrine does go back to names like Nimrod and Astoreth. Mary has also become a sort of co-redemptrix, another doctrine not found in scripture. A little leaven leavens the whole lump.

Is it possible there is a “Christian” faith and practice which does not come from Rome, Constantinople, Wittenberg, Canterbury, Salt Lake City, etal? Yes. Go back to the shores of Galilee. Jesus called out fishers of men. He said He would never leave them nor forsake them. He has kept His promise. The gates of Hades have not prevailed–the battle still rages for the souls of men and women.

Who is on the Lord’s side?

Where will we be in a hundred years?

Selah,

James Least
 
The following observations are from a follower of Christ who is neither Catholic or Protestant: Martin Luther was a Catholic priest before he was defrocked. He tried to “reform” from within.

That Mary, mother of Jesus, the Christ, is the Mother of God is a dogma not found in scripture. This doctrine does go back to names like Nimrod and Astoreth.
Actually it is implied in Scripture.

If you read the Gospel of Luke, when Mary visited her cousin Elizabeth, she said, “How is it that the Mother of my Lord, should come to me.”

In Hebrew tradition. God’s name is never invoked instead, when the Jews address God, they often use the term, Lord, or Adonai in Hebrew. So the when Elizabeth addressed Mary, Mother of my Lord, it come be written as “Mother of my God.”

The doctrine is deep in Scripture is it is also founded in Early Church History.

The fourth and fifth centuries, the first ones of Christian emancipation from persecution, were centuries of consolidating the truth about God and Christ. The Councils of Nicea (325) and Constantinople (361) defined the basic teachings of Christianity in the Creed which goes by their name (and which is obligatory at Sunday Mass), against those who in one manner or another denied the unity of God, and the Divinity of the Son (“one in substance with the Father”) and of the Holy Spirit (“who proceeds from the Father and the Son”). It also asserted the true humanity of Christ “born of the Virgin Mary,” thus protecting the Incarnation of the Word, the Word-made-flesh, from the assault of heretics like Arius. Jesus Christ was indeed the Eternal Son, a Divine Person, who united in Himself both a Divine and human nature.

However, some of those who remained in the Church after Nicea-Constantinople sought to mitigate the full force of these teachings by various equivocations. In 428 Archbishop Nestorius, the newly elected Patriarch of Constantinople, began to teach that Mary was indeed the Mother of Christ but was not the Mother of God, a title freely used in the Church. Although attempting to remain faithful to the Creed, that is professing belief in Christ’s true Divinity and true humanity, Nestorius’ writings, however, suggested that in Christ there was more of a moral unity of two persons, the Word and Jesus. In addition to the rebellion of the clergy and people, Nestorius had to contend with the attacks of St. Cyril of Alexandria, who finally submitted both Nestorius’ writings and his own defenses to Pope St. Celestine, who condemned Nestorius as a heretic.

Nestorius was only emboldened, teaching that Jesus was merely the temple of the Word, and if Mary is the Mother of God she has been made a goddess. His contemptuous remarks included, “a mother cannot bear a son older than herself.” Both the Pope and Nestorius were desirous of a Council and so one was called in Ephesus in June of 431. However, Nestorius and his followers did not come, despite several summons, and after seven sessions to consider the matter the teaching of Nestorius, and some other heretics such as Pelagius, were condemned. Here is what the Council decreed:

111a For we do not say that the nature of the Word was changed and made flesh, nor yet that it was changed into the whole man (composed) of soul and body but rather (we say) that the Word, in an ineffable and inconceivable manner, having hypostatically united to Himself flesh animated by a rational soul, became Man and was called the Son of Man, not according to the will alone or by the assumption of a person alone, and that the different natures were brought together in a real union, but that out of both in one Christ and Son, not because the distinction of natures was destroyed by the union, but rather because the divine nature and the human nature formed one Lord and Christ and Son for us, through a marvelous and mystical concurrence in unity. . . . For it was no ordinary man who was first born of the Holy Virgin and upon whom the Word afterwards descended; but being united from the womb itself He is said to have undergone flesh birth, claiming as His own the birth of His own flesh. Thus [the holy Fathers] did not hesitate to speak of the holy Virgin as the Theotokos (Mother of God). [Denzinger paragraph 111a]

113 Canon. 1. If anyone does not confess that God is truly Emmanuel, and that on this account the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God (for according to the flesh she gave birth to the Word of God become flesh by birth), let him be anathema (condemned, i.e. excommunicated).

114 Can. 2. If anyone does not confess that the Word of God the Father was united to a body by hypostasis [union in a single Person] and that one is Christ with his own body, the same one evidently both God and man, let him be anathema.

115 Can. 3. If anyone in the one Christ divides the subsistences [divine and human natures] after the union, connecting them by a junction only according to worth, that is to say absolute sway or power, and not rather by a joining according to physical union [union in the one Christ], let him be anathema.

116 Can. 4. If anyone portions out to two persons, that is to say subsistences, the words in the Gospels and the apostolic writings, whether said about Christ by the saints, or by Him concerning Himself, and attributes some as it to a man specially understood beside the Word of God, others as befitting God alone, to the Word of God the Father, let him be anathema.
 
((continue))

117 Can. 5. If anyone ventures to say that Christ is a man inspired by God, and not rather that He is truly God, as a son by nature, as the Word was made flesh and has shared similarly with us in blood and flesh, let him be anathema.

118 Can. 6. If anyone ventures to say that God or the Lord is the Word of Christ from God the Father and does not rather confess the same as at once both God and man, since the Word was made flesh according to the Scriptures, let him be anathema.

119 Can. 7. If anyone says that Jesus as man was assisted by the Word of God, and that the glory of the Only-begotten was applied as to another existing beside Him, let him be anathema.
… and so on

As can be seen, all of the decisions of this great Council, of which the title Mother of God was only the pricipitating issue, protect and defend this truth: Jesus Christ was NOT a mere man on whom the Word descended in some way or to whom the Word was united but distinct, rather He was the Divine eternal Person of the Word, who in time assumed a human nature of Mary, but remained the Word, the One Christ, 2nd Person of the Trinity, uniting in Himself His Divine Nature and His Incarnate Human Nature.

In all, twelve canons defend and put outside Christian faith various propositions attacking the union of Christ’s two natures in His One Divine Person. In a single brief statement the Council declares that Mary gave birth NOT to a mere man, human nature, but to a Divine Person who assumed our manhood. She is properly, then, the human Mother in time of God the Word, and not just the Mother of Christ, a title any good new ager of our day could accept. By calling Mary the Mother of God, the Catholic Church establishes herself alone in the West, together with the Orthodox who separated from us in the 11th century, as doctrinally incapable of renouncing the union of the two natures in the one Person of the Eternal Word.
 
The Scriptural basis of the unity of God, the eternity of the Word and the Incarnation is actually sufficient in itself to arrive at the conclusion that Mary is the Mother of God. God gave us reason and guided by the Holy Spirit the Church comes to an ever deeper penetration of the profound depths of Divine Revelation (Jn 16:13), which being the Word of God cannot be exhausted by a bare-bones literal reading - “if it isn’t explicitly in Scripture then it is revealed.” By this logic most prophetic matters referring to Christ in the Old Testament could be dismissed because they were hidden in types and presented as shadows. Thus the simple logic of the Church is that if Scripture reveals that Mary is the Mother of the Word-made-Flesh, and the Word-made-flesh is God, then Mary is the Mother of God (the Word), not from eternity of course, but beginning in time and for eternity. To say only that Mary is the Mother of Jesus or only the Mother of Christ, is to subscribe unwittingly to the doctrines of heretics who denied the unity of the Christ’s Divine and Human Natures.

But is it in Scripture? Yes, in addition to the above way we find that God reveals to the heart of Elizabeth the truth about the Incarnation, God-made-flesh. When Mary arrives to assist her in her pregnancy with St. John the Baptist, on seeing the Blessed Mother St. Elizabeth declares,

“blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, how is it that the Mother of the Lord (mater tou kyrios) comes to me” (Lk 1:42-43).

In both the first half and the second half of this inspired address mother and child are inseparably united. In the first, Mary and the fruit of her womb, Jesus, are praised. In the second the unity of their relationship is revealed, as well as the unity of Christ. Mary is not merely the mother of Jesus the Messiah, somehow conceived, but the mother of the Lord. The text preserves the Greek, kyrios, although the language that would have been spoken was Aramaic. Among the Jews the name of God was not spoken, but a substitution was made to preserve respect. By convention when translating Hebrew and its sister language Aramaic into Greek, such as in the Greek Old Testament (Septuagint) used to evangelize Greek-speaking Jews and gentiles, the word substituted for God’s name was Kyrios, which we translate as Lord. This was in lieu of I AM, Christ’s use of which for Himself would later scandalized the Jews. Elizabeth would never have been so bold, however, instead calling the fruit of Mary’s womb, the Lord, with all the meaning which the Jews attributed to it and which the Catholic Church continues to understand of the Word-made-flesh in Mary’s womb.
 
That Mary, mother of Jesus, the Christ, is the Mother of God is a dogma not found in scripture.
  • Christ being God is in the Scriptures.
  • Mary being Christ’s mother is in the Scriptures.
  • Therefore Mary being the mother of God (Christ) is Biblical.
Unless of course you believe one of two things.
  1. Christ is not God; or
  2. Mary is not Christ’s mother.
People tend to look at the phrase,* ‘Mother of God’* in the wrong light. It is a statement about Who Christ is.

God bless
 
Actually it is implied in Scripture.

If you read the Gospel of Luke, when Mary visited her cousin Elizabeth, she said, “How is it that the Mother of my Lord, should come to me.”

In Hebrew tradition. God’s name is never invoked instead, when the Jews address God, they often use the term, Lord, or Adonai in Hebrew. So the when Elizabeth addressed Mary, Mother of my Lord, it come be written as “Mother of my God.”

The doctrine is deep in Scripture is it is also founded in Early Church History.

The fourth and fifth centuries, the first ones of Christian emancipation from persecution, were centuries of consolidating the truth about God and Christ. The Councils of Nicea (325) and Constantinople (361) defined the basic teachings of Christianity in the Creed which goes by their name (and which is obligatory at Sunday Mass), against those who in one manner or another denied the unity of God, and the Divinity of the Son (“one in substance with the Father”) and of the Holy Spirit (“who proceeds from the Father and the Son”). It also asserted the true humanity of Christ “born of the Virgin Mary,” thus protecting the Incarnation of the Word, the Word-made-flesh, from the assault of heretics like Arius. Jesus Christ was indeed the Eternal Son, a Divine Person, who united in Himself both a Divine and human nature.

However, some of those who remained in the Church after Nicea-Constantinople sought to mitigate the full force of these teachings by various equivocations. In 428 Archbishop Nestorius, the newly elected Patriarch of Constantinople, began to teach that Mary was indeed the Mother of Christ but was not the Mother of God, a title freely used in the Church. Although attempting to remain faithful to the Creed, that is professing belief in Christ’s true Divinity and true humanity, Nestorius’ writings, however, suggested that in Christ there was more of a moral unity of two persons, the Word and Jesus. In addition to the rebellion of the clergy and people, Nestorius had to contend with the attacks of St. Cyril of Alexandria, who finally submitted both Nestorius’ writings and his own defenses to Pope St. Celestine, who condemned Nestorius as a heretic.

Nestorius was only emboldened, teaching that Jesus was merely the temple of the Word, and if Mary is the Mother of God she has been made a goddess. His contemptuous remarks included, “a mother cannot bear a son older than herself.” Both the Pope and Nestorius were desirous of a Council and so one was called in Ephesus in June of 431. However, Nestorius and his followers did not come, despite several summons, and after seven sessions to consider the matter the teaching of Nestorius, and some other heretics such as Pelagius, were condemned. Here is what the Council decreed:

111a For we do not say that the nature of the Word was changed and made flesh, nor yet that it was changed into the whole man (composed) of soul and body but rather (we say) that the Word, in an ineffable and inconceivable manner, having hypostatically united to Himself flesh animated by a rational soul, became Man and was called the Son of Man, not according to the will alone or by the assumption of a person alone, and that the different natures were brought together in a real union, but that out of both in one Christ and Son, not because the distinction of natures was destroyed by the union, but rather because the divine nature and the human nature formed one Lord and Christ and Son for us, through a marvelous and mystical concurrence in unity. . . . For it was no ordinary man who was first born of the Holy Virgin and upon whom the Word afterwards descended; but being united from the womb itself He is said to have undergone flesh birth, claiming as His own the birth of His own flesh. Thus [the holy Fathers] did not hesitate to speak of the holy Virgin as the Theotokos (Mother of God). [Denzinger paragraph 111a]

113 Canon. 1. If anyone does not confess that God is truly Emmanuel, and that on this account the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God (for according to the flesh she gave birth to the Word of God become flesh by birth), let him be anathema (condemned, i.e. excommunicated).

114 Can. 2. If anyone does not confess that the Word of God the Father was united to a body by hypostasis [union in a single Person] and that one is Christ with his own body, the same one evidently both God and man, let him be anathema.

115 Can. 3. If anyone in the one Christ divides the subsistences [divine and human natures] after the union, connecting them by a junction only according to worth, that is to say absolute sway or power, and not rather by a joining according to physical union [union in the one Christ], let him be anathema.

116 Can. 4. If anyone portions out to two persons, that is to say subsistences, the words in the Gospels and the apostolic writings, whether said about Christ by the saints, or by Him concerning Himself, and attributes some as it to a man specially understood beside the Word of God, others as befitting God alone, to the Word of God the Father, let him be anathema.
 
Sorry, I seem unable to navigate the quote function. Where are the directions?

Manny, etal,

I am confused about your arguments: you are using words like implied, and logical. Things implied are like opinions, often based on unnecessary inference–not necessarily divinely inspired, and certainly not dogma. Most of the logic of Aristotle is actually quite illogical depending on one’s paradigm of logic.

Pertinent questions: Why are there more rosary prayers to Mary than to God?
Why do Eastern Orthodox not regard the Pope as the vicar of Christ? They also seem to have a problem with Mary being “mater de theos”. There are schisms of dogma which go back 15-16 hundred years. How can all this confusion be from God? God is not the author of confusion. Then there is Vatican II–there seem to be two Roman churches after Vatican II, one Latin the other not sure–What is this? Who has the keys now?Are we going through a series of anti-popes?

At some point however, God will send strong delusion–such that some would believe a lie.

Jesus said,“In vain they do worship, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.”

Where will we be in 100 years?

James Least.
 
Manny, etal,
I am confused about your arguments: you are using words like implied, and logical. Things implied are like opinions, often based on unnecessary inference–not necessarily divinely inspired, and certainly not dogma. Most of the logic of Aristotle is actually quite illogical depending on one’s paradigm of logic.
The point that RC and I tried to point out is that since the Biblical times, the basic theological understanding of Jesus Christ is that he is both God and man. Since Jesus is God, and Mary gave birth to him, she can be properly called Mother of God. This does not mean that she is the mother of the God, the Father, or the Holy Spirit. She is the mother of the Second Person of the Trinity made flesh through the power of the Holy Spirit.

The belief that Mary is the Mother of God is biblical in its foundations. Anyone who deny this, is a heretic according to the Council of Ephesus in 431 AD.
Pertinent questions: Why are there more rosary prayers to Mary than to God?
Though this thread have nothing to do with the rosary, the question you ask is merely a misunderstanding on your part. The entire rosary in fact mention God more than once. God is mention Our Father, the Hail Mary prayer itself (which is based on Elizabeth’s greeting to Mary and Gabriel’s in the Gospel of Luke), and every time each decade is complete, “the Fatima Prayer” is pray, "which says, “Oh, my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell, and lead all souls into heaven, especially those who need most of your mercy.”

James,

as for your other questions. I will not answer them because they are not part of this discussion and is not related to Mary’s honorable title, Mother of God, or Theotokos which EO and Eastern Catholics refer to her as.
 
Of course Mary is the mother of God.

I didn’t realize this was up for debate?
 
It is my understanding that the difference between the EO usage of Theotokos (God-bearer) and the Western use of Mother of God is a linguistic and not theological one. The Theotokos title confers the same position: she who bore the Lord
 
Of course Mary is the mother of God.

I didn’t realize this was up for debate?
It very much is up for debate, for no reason other than the fact that there was a lot of anti-catholosism going on with in the protestant reformation. In some quarters, the leaders of the “reformation” started looking for any way on which to declare the CC completely illegitimate.

They, thusly, invented this idea that Mary was not, could not be the Mother of God. God the Father existed before us, so she can’t be the Mother of God. But of course this ignores that Jesus is God (the son, fully united with the father in every real sense) and that Mary is Jesus’s mother.

This then extended to the doctrine of the communion of saints. After attacking Mary, the communion as a whole was then attacked… and on, and on, and on.

The end result is this, in many quarters the entirty of Christian tradition was thrown out completely in favor of basing their beliefs on nothing but a “dead book” (not said in disrespect, but mearly to point out the book is immutable, and can not in and of it’s self teach).
 
It is my understanding that the difference between the EO usage of Theotokos (God-bearer) and the Western use of Mother of God is a linguistic and not theological one. The Theotokos title confers the same position: she who bore the Lord
There is no difference. I don’t see it. Both affirm that Mary is the Mother of God as stated in the Council of Ephesus (431). That council declared Mary is the Mother of God. The Eastern Orthodox accept that council. Theotokos which means (God-Bearer, as you stated in your post) is no different than Mother of God). Since both affirm that Jesus is both God and Man.
 
It very much is up for debate, for no reason other than the fact that there was a lot of anti-catholosism going on with in the protestant reformation. In some quarters, the leaders of the “reformation” started looking for any way on which to declare the CC completely illegitimate.

They, thusly, invented this idea that Mary was not, could not be the Mother of God. God the Father existed before us, so she can’t be the Mother of God. But of course this ignores that Jesus is God (the son, fully united with the father in every real sense) and that Mary is Jesus’s mother.

This then extended to the doctrine of the communion of saints. After attacking Mary, the communion as a whole was then attacked… and on, and on, and on.

The end result is this, in many quarters the entirty of Christian tradition was thrown out completely in favor of basing their beliefs on nothing but a “dead book” (not said in disrespect, but mearly to point out the book is immutable, and can not in and of it’s self teach).
The fathers of the Reformers affirm the same belief that Mary is the Mother of God.

Martin Luther writes,

“She is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God … It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God.”

John Calvin writes also,

“Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God.”

and Ulrich Zwingli writes,

"It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God."11

"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin."12 Zwingli used Exodus 4:22 to defend the doctrine of Mary’s perpetual virginity.

"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary."13

"Christ … was born of a most undefiled Virgin."14

"It was fitting that such a holy Son should have a holy Mother."15

“The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow.”

The modern Protestant rejection of Mary, the Mother of God is pretty new, and majority of Protestants accept that Mary is the Mother of God. It is mainly the Evangelicals, and Fundamentalists, who reject the doctrine which have been part of the Early Christian Church.

And Mary’s title as the Mother of God is not a Catholic thing. We, Catholics, do not have a monopoly over this. Since the Eastern Orthodox acknowledges and affirms that Mary is the Mother of God.
 
There is no difference. I don’t see it. Both affirm that Mary is the Mother of God as stated in the Council of Ephesus (431). That council declared Mary is the Mother of God. The Eastern Orthodox accept that council. Theotokos which means (God-Bearer, as you stated in your post) is no different than Mother of God). Since both affirm that Jesus is both God and Man.
Exactly. It is just using different words to convey the same Truth: Jesus is God and became Man with Mary as his mother
 
The following observations are from a follower of Christ who is neither Catholic or Protestant:

So does this mean you’re Orthodox?

That Mary, mother of Jesus, the Christ, is the Mother of God is a dogma not found in scripture.

**Yes, it is. Luke 1 (from KJV, emphasis added)

41And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

42And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

43And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

Who is Lord, but God? Notice how Elizabeth’s words, inspired by the Holy Spirit, anticipate the confession of St. Thomas: “My Lord and my God.”

In effect. Elizabeth was calling the Theotokos “Mother of YHVH”.

You can believe what you wish. I’ll believe the Word of God.**
 
\ At some point however, God will send strong delusion–such that some would believe a lie.\

No chance that YOU are the one who is deluded, is it?
 
The modern Protestant rejection of Mary, the Mother of God is pretty new, and majority of Protestants accept that Mary is the Mother of God. It is mainly the Evangelicals, and Fundamentalists, who reject the doctrine which have been part of the Early Christian Church.

And Mary’s title as the Mother of God is not a Catholic thing. We, Catholics, do not have a monopoly over this. Since the Eastern Orthodox acknowledges and affirms that Mary is the Mother of God.
All good points, I think this is what I was getting at though I didn’t use quotes etc. This new rejection of Mary was born, gradually out of hatered for rome. Rather than good theological study.
 
\It is my understanding that the difference between the EO usage of Theotokos (God-bearer) and the Western use of Mother of God is a linguistic and not theological one.\

**Actually, “God-bearer” is “Theophoros” (compare “Christophros”).

Theotokos means, “She who gave birth to God.” The Greek equivalent of Mother of God, “Miter tou Theou,” is used liturgically, too. In fact, it forms the initials around her in Eastern iconography.**
 
\It is my understanding that the difference between the EO usage of Theotokos (God-bearer) and the Western use of Mother of God is a linguistic and not theological one.\

**Actually, “God-bearer” is “Theophoros” (compare “Christophros”).

Theotokos means, “She who gave birth to God.” The Greek equivalent of Mother of God, “Miter tou Theou,” is used liturgically, too. In fact, it forms the initials around her in Eastern iconography.**
I stand corrected. That actually proves the point even more.
 
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